https://forum.cartridgecollect...-257-roberts/6587/10



Early in the 20th Century, several experimenters and wildcatters were playing with 25 caliber cartridges based on the 30-40 Krag case, similar to what Dr. Franklin Mann had introduced to the world in his treatise The Bullet’s Flight. One of those pioneers was N. H. (Ned) Roberts. He set out to design a rimless case having a capacity similar to the rimmed 25 Krag-Mann, considering the advances in powders since Mann’s experiments. Roberts settled on the 7x57mm Mauser case and began months of testing different bullets, barrels, and chambers. He finally settled on a 15 degree shoulder and a 2.160" case length, dubbing it the 25 Roberts. Michigan rifle maker A. O. Niedner agreed to make barrels, hand formed cases, and complete rifles, and shooters of the day commonly called the new cartridge the 25 Niedner Roberts.

In 1930, New York gun makers Griffin & Howe began to produce ammunition and rifles. They determined that case forming could be expedited if the case was left full length. Roberts tested the longer case, approved it’s design, and it quickly came to be called the 25 G & H Roberts.

In 1934 Remington proposed to legitimize the wildcat and introduce it in their Model 30-S Express rifle. They concluded that the manufacture of new brass cases could be facilitated by simply necking the 7x57mm case to 25 caliber, with no other changes. The new cartridge was named the 25 Roberts and cases were headstamped accordingly. Several noted riflemen raised flags of concern since it could be mistaken for the original 25 Roberts. Within a year the cartridge was renamed the 257 Remington Roberts and the headstamp changed to 257 REM. A year later, Winchester came on board with their cartridge named the 257 Winchester Roberts, headstamped 257 Roberts. With the passing of time both the Remington and Winchester cartridges came to be known as simply the 257 Roberts.

The Neider and G&H versions look sweet. I would love a custom gun in one of those chambers.

All it takes is time and money

I have been enamored with the .257 Roberts since I was a young boy.
Thanks for posting the brief history for the previously unaware, the Roberts is still getting it done today!

Here is the ass end of the Roberts variants

Not sure why it won't open, I followed the directions. when I did get it to show, it was way too big. I'll work on getting it sized.

Top to bottom: Rem 30S w/Zeiss Zeilvier; Win Pre-War 70 w/Leupold Alaskan; Win transitional 70 w/Weaver. Somewhat dated in their stock dimensions and weight, but still grand rifles to hunt.

Hard to beat a 257 Robts original..or a 250-3000. The only challenge I see is the great 25-06...

Quite amazing that the .25 Krag and the "modern" .257 Roberts are identical except for the rim. They were on to something back then!

An improved version of the 25 Krag would be a hell of a cartridge in a little single shot. A thinside High Wall with a 24-26 inch barrel and a slender stock would be a thing of beauty both in function and looks

Thanks for the history lesson on this 25 caliber round Boomie!

I've never heard of these other rounds; just the 257 Roberts. Great post.

When I first started big game hunting, a friend invited me to hunt deer on his farm, and I shot my first deer there. I asked him for a two rifle battery suggestion, as I thought that was all I'd need!!!!!

He suggested a 25-06 and 300 WM. I bought them. And then about a hundred more rifles.

But strangely, I've never bought a Roberts.

But there's still time....

Yes, but what pressure was the brass/action expected to take?

.25 Krag - 45,000 psi

.257 Roberts - 58,000 psi

Don't know about the other two.

In 1956 Ken Waters took a .243 Rem and necked it up to 6.5mm. Identical to the .260 Rem . . . except. He used a 0.263" bullet and called it the .263 Express. 41 years later (1997) Rem/Charmichael and A-Square are claiming the 6.5-08 as their idea. Only a 0.001" difference and Ken had them both. And Ken used the proper 1:8" twist for the long 139 to 160 gr bullets the 6.5 Swede built it's reputation on, that, after initially falling on it's face with a 1:9" twist, the .260 Rem picked up as standard.

quote:

But strangely, I've never bought a Roberts.

Neither have I. With all the rifles I've owned over time, you'd think that at least one of them would have been a Roberts.

So I have this barrel blank in 25 cal and a smokeless rolling block action out in the shop. Might even have some pretty wood out there. Thoughts?

My old Mauser actioned .257 Roberts holds a special place in my memory. It's the only rifle I ever owned with which I killed two crows with one shot. They were sitting on the same limb, some 200 yards away, facing in opposite directions. The bullet hit the near one in just the right spot and kept right on going through the far one.

It particularly loved 87 grain Sierras. The barrel had originally been a .250 Savage, so I expect the twist was a little slow.

Mark,

I'd use that Roller on anything but a high-pressure modern cartridge. If you want a .25, .25-35 maybe, but certainly not .257 Roberts or anything that runs at 50,000-PSI. Not that the action won't take it, but there is enough spring that cartridge life will probably be short, and I know several folks who have tried similar cartridges, always with disappointment; extraction difficulties (in spite of the spring extractor), accuracy problems, etc.. Get a good Mauser action and build a nice, light .257 Roberts with that barrel. Use the Roller for a BPCR cartridge-they are excellent in that application.

Clarence

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Taylor:
So I have this barrel blank in 25 cal and a smokeless rolling block action out in the shop. Might even have some pretty wood out there. Thoughts?

If it’s a 1902 action, it will work nicely. They were tested by the US military and held up to 30/03 & 30/06 pressures. Remington had a contract with Mexico for RB’s in 7x57. Great actions if you can find one and perfectly suitable for a 257 Roberts.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Taylor:
So I have this barrel blank in 25 cal and a smokeless rolling block action out in the shop. Might even have some pretty wood out there. Thoughts?

Sounds like you have a perfect 25 Krag right there..

Guess I'm blessed because I have 2. One is still complete and the other is broken down ready to build. The 25 Krag has been heavy on my mind. The thing with the complete one is that it still shoots reasonably well even with my tired old eyes. Both are smokeless so I have many options. It's all a game now anyway being retired now with a shop full of gun projects. What I always wanted.

I second the high wall for a hot 25, but not a thinwall, I would opt for a thick wall version..the thinwalls IMO are nicer to look at and great for certain calibers, but a thick wall if considerably better..I did some strength testing many years ago when those actions were available and no pricy at all, the thick wall passed my tests, the thin wall didn't.

It wasn't a very scientific test by any means, the old tire and string trick until they blew or failed miserably..maybe that's pretty scientific after all come to think of it..the strongest action I ever tested was a Jap Arisaka of all things..I couldn't blow it up with a case full of Bulls Eye!!! but it sure locked up and ruined he action, took a sledge hammer to it but the bolt handle came off so I gave up..If it wasn't so damn ugly, but it is..

The "oldies but goodies" have pretty much ALWAYS KNOWN just how very good so many "OLDIES BUT GOODIES" are and now the newer generations are starting to find out...maybe....not sure how many would want one in todays long range, hi velo shooting scene...the old hi-vo, small bullet vs lo-vo, BIG BULLET arguments are now repeating...

I've always liked the quarter bore and have had or worked with shooters from 25 FB and BR to 25-06/284 to 25 Gibbs and still have 4 different cartridge designations in the rack right now.

Good Hunting

Boomie,
you are missing the winchester +p brass

the first centerfire rifle i bought for myself is a 257 bob on a springfield .. i still have it .. that rifle loves +p brass, and having a long jump to the throat -- i've heard many bob like that, too -- a Flaigg's custom gunshop, made in the 60s, found in a pawnshop .. i bought it for the action and stock, as I wanted a 358 winchester in the worst way ... so the first gun i built, on another action, was a 358 winchester on a springfield ..

257 bob and 1903 actions go together like cheese and jalapenos, and might be the best thing since beer

my first set of "hand" reloading dies, a Mequon 257


was for this rifle -- and a $4.99 box of factory ammo, then brass, bullets, primers and some winchester 760, and i could go to the range and shoot ALL day for about three bucks, all in ....

reloading one piece of brass over 30 times before i gave up on making it to 50, in one afternoon/evening .. one large ragged hole at 100 yards, couple fliers, and i was just done with the whole thing -- a level scope of 760, 100gr bullet, and a WLR primer -- as I had found 3031, the "classic" powder, was too dirty for me and 760 ball powder worked great ...

it's killed everything from crawdads to boars, to exotics ...

Yep, some of those old springfields in .257 Robts were awesome rifles..wish I had bought one back then..I did have a 7x57 Shellhammer, but grew tired of it and got a good deal on a pre 64 mod. 70 and a Rem 722 in the Roberts..

ONe problem Ive noticed with the Robts is many of them don't shoot too well, others shot great..

I never owned or know of a 250-3000 that didn't shoot bug hole groups, so I quit my Robts fan and switched over to the Savage in bolt guns and always had a couple of 99 Savages, still do.
I just finished a G33-40 small ring fullcustom FWT that was intended to be a Robts, but I live in Idaho and a gforgone hunter of elk, moose and bear, and lots of deer hunting it seemed a better option to look elsewhere, so at the last minute I went with the 7x57..Shot it today and its a tack driver for sure..very English.