quote:

Originally posted by marshmandan:
So the Barnes Tripple shocks, Nosler Partion,Federal Fusion, and Winchester Power Point were not designed to be big game bullets? Using that logic maybe I should stop hunting deer with my .308.....

Whatever you think. It's your call.

I say the bullets were designed for those who insist on using a cartridge not designed for big game such as deer and hogs. At least the bullets you mentioned are not purely designed for varmints. The bullets used by carpetman and teancum are varmint bullets, and they still swear they work well, just as you do for the heavier .223 bullets.

I think the heavier bullets are still inadequate for the job, and just barely make the 223 legit for the purpose.

I still think the 223 should be outlawed nation-wide for deer. It's a shame that ethics need to be legislated.

KB

RMiller

That's great that you took a deer with your 9mm. Tell us more about it.

quote:

It's a shame that ethics need to be legislated.

So... to each his own or not? You contradict yourself all in the same post.

Here in MT there is no caliber restriction. You can use whatever you want.

Whats next.... No 22 for deer, nothing under 30 cal for elk, nothing under 375 for moose and bear?

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
RMiller

That's great that you took a deer with your 9mm. Tell us more about it.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=814107373#814107373

40 s&w deer thread

I have posted about it a few times before (13).

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
So which one is the reasonable person?

I know the effectiveness of the 22 centerfires on deer.

-------

As far as lost deer.... hunt long enough and it can happen for sure.

I have lost three deer with rifles. One was a small Sitka blacktail shot with a 22-250 and a 70 grain speer bullet. Found some bone fragments but no deer. 250 yard shot.

Another was a whitetail fawn 2/3 mature size shot with a 180 E-Tip from a 300 WSM, 2900 FPS 175 yards. Took a front leg off just under the chest. This deer ran out of sight at least 500 yards.

Last one was a mule deer fawn 2/3 mature size 20 guage SST slug 80 yards. This deer was hit too far back, took off and swam the Missouri never to be found by me anyways.

----------------

For deer I have shot 20 Sitka Blacktails, 5 Mule Deer and 5 Whitetails.

Rifles used include: 223 rem(1SB), 22-250 rem (4 SB), 223 WSSM (1 WT), 30-30 (1MD), 308 win (1WT), 300 WSM (2WT,1MD), 300 win mag (7SB), 338 win mag (2SB).

Handguns I've used: 9mm (1SB),41 mag (2 SB), 44mag (1SB), 454 casull (1SB, 1MD).

Archery one each mule deer, sitka and whitetail.

Shotgun 20 guage SST, one Mule deer.

I could deer hunt the rest of my days with any of the rifle rounds listed above.

Blowing the leg off means the shot was far from the vitals, any caliber does that. 80 yards with a slug gun.............lol..............lol that s all I can say, they bounce off at that range.

LOL..my son shot his first mule deer at 193 yards with the same slug gun.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3411043/m/9231070181

Amazing ol Kabluey's opinions--certainly not based on any experience are now ethics. Next time I'm unsure of something can I send you a PM and get your approval?

Carpetman1

It is interesting that Kaboom is now on the grandstand waving the flag of ethics.

Isn't this the same numb-nut who relates stories of his admitted flock shooting on a group of deer and not knowing what critters were hit in the may-lay ?

Isn't this the same numb-nut who lists an object on a website and when the high bidder wins the auction refuses to send the object? He uses the defense of he, numb-nut, made a mistake in the listing price and the buyer should have known that it was in error !!

Interesting behavior, what do they call such behavior? ..........hypocrite....... I would disregard any input from this source on ethics....in fact I would disregard all input from this source.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Typical city boys. Of course you can kill a deer with a .223. You might be able to kill a cape buffalo with one too. The point is on youtube you get to see other peoples experience for free and understand why it is not a universally recommended deer cartridge. If you have a closet full of better rounds all I can say is why use it? Just to experiment? How big can it go, or how little cartridge can I get by with? Shoot a deer with a .223 so I can run to the net with photos and talk about my kindergarden kids shooting a deer they cannot field dress?

Typical cyber hunter response. Gain a little first hand experience and get back with us. Youtube hunting knowledge, HAR! And you call me a city boy.

Terry

Your city boy response is typical. I killed my first buck in 1962. I grew up on a ranch. I knew my share about deer hunting decades before there was a youtube or before the AR-15 bozos decided the .223 was a decent deer cartridge.

Teancum--Certainly not the same master of ethics that went to Texas to show those guys how to kill hogs and what firepower was really needed and his "buddies" wouldn't even leave the cabin with him.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Teancum--Certainly not the same master of ethics that went to Texas to show those guys how to kill hogs and what firepower was really needed and his "buddies" wouldn't even leave the cabin with him.

I have forgotten/did not see that one. Please refresh our memory.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
Carpetman1

It is interesting that Kaboom is now on the grandstand waving the flag of ethics.

Isn't this the same numb-nut who relates stories of his admitted flock shooting on a group of deer and not knowing what critters were hit in the may-lay ?

Isn't this the same numb-nut who lists an object on a website and when the high bidder wins the auction refuses to send the object? He uses the defense of he, numb-nut, made a mistake in the listing price and the buyer should have known that it was in error !!

Interesting behavior, what do they call such behavior? ..........hypocrite....... I would disregard any input from this source on ethics....in fact I would disregard all input from this source.

Everyone makes mistakes. There is a difference in mistakes and just plain doing something stupid, again and again. Using varmint bullets on deer such as those used by you and carpetman is just stupid. What's worse is that you get on the internet and brag about it. You are proud of it.

Mistakes MAY be related to ethics, but intentionally shooting deer with varmint bullets, and at long range too is not a mistake on your part. It's intentional and stupid and unethical.

KB

Kaboom Ye Olde Flock Shooter .....How be ye.

Seriously though a question or two for you. When you are planning your hunts that are focused on flock shooting at a bunch of deer what caliber do you recommend? How about bullet design and any appropriate hand loads did you use ? Do you feel that the larger calibers compensate for lack of accuracy in your experience as a flock shooter? How do you feel about bullet placement or is just a circus when the lead starts flying? What do you feel in the appropriate amount of time to wait before you follow up on a flock shooting? Do you look for blood sign or just move on to the next flock shooting? There just seems to be so much to learn about this lost art.

I did read that Ebay has an opening for a position in the problem resolution office. I think this position deals with disputes between idiots that don't put a reserve on an item and knowledgeable buyers when the idiot listing the item fails to follow through and sell the item. The job listing there said that you had to have experience and I thought who else would have as many idiotic experiences in this area and then we go to your experience with trying to defend you lack of ethical positions? The failure to man up and admit the mistake and sell the item was even more entertaining the idiotic listing. That one is still probably sensitive for you, right? If I were you I would hurry up and apply.

Perhaps you can entertain us again on your pig hunting adventures. Were you flock shooting again..... you stinker.

Flock shooting is quite the sport. We all have our faults, eh? It's right up there in the catagory of long range shooting with an inadequate cartridge. In my case the situation was a moment of a little too much excitment, which I learned from. I wouldn't call it exactly flock shooting, but you can enjoy that term if you want. Each shot was aimed at a specific deer. Unfortunately I retrieved only one.

That rifle, a Ruger in 257 R, later proved to be very inaccurate. I didn't know just how bad it was until after I gave it to my Texas buddy who couldn't get it to shoot accurately either. He just let it sit in the gun rack until I traded him a CZ550 in 270 for the Ruger, then I sold the Ruger. Now, he uses the CZ 270 all the time. It's his favorite rifle, and very accurate.

In your case, if one can believe anything you write, you regularly make 200yds plus on those fawns you take. At the ranges you shoot, the little 40gr pill has less energy than a 22LR. Yet you brag about it.

In my case I learned to shoot better, use restraint, and I mostly use a 308 now.

You are wrong about my failure to admit my mistake. You learned about it specifically because I admitted my mistake, and have rubbed in in ever since.

On the other hand, you are not man enough to admit your mistakes.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
Perhaps you can entertain us again on your pig hunting adventures. Were you flock shooting again..... you stinker.

I plan on more pig hunting adventures in Texas and Georgia, starting in January. If lucky, I may get to stay through March.

I bought a new rifle which should be especially good for sounder shooting. It's an Armalite carbine AR10 in 308. Should be fun, eh? Should I use the 5, 10 or 20 round magazine, or does the answer depend on how many pigs I expect to see at once?

KB

Kablowey--You go flock shooting with an inaccurate rifle and don't even know it is inaccurate until your buddy tells you? Very ethical--ethical lesson--have buddy that can shoot so you can learn a rifle is inaccurate and not flock shoot with it again.
Teancum---I missed it where he listed something and reneged on the deal. His last hog hunting trip to Texas, his buddies just stayed in the cabin and wouldn't go out with him, so he didn't get to hunt. Guess he needed someone that could shoot and was a backup for him. Don't understand that he shoots em from one end to the other with NO meat damage. He did finally admit that he spreads the green stuff all through the meat.

quote:

That rifle, a Ruger in 257 R, later proved to be very inaccurate. I didn't know just how bad it was until after I gave it to my Texas buddy

Hey Kaboom you old stinker.

Don't you know that you are responsible to go into the field with a rifle that is sighted in???

How UNETHICAL can you go??? No respect for a clean kill on your targeted game. You're going over the top with this one.

All ETHICAL hunters want their shooters to be sighted in to the nth degree to simply Hit what they are aiming at. You
at least owe that to the game to avoid wounded them with any caliber no matter how large you think you need to go.

I am appalled at your actions.......but I still wish you the best.

Teancum--You are responsible to go into the field with a sighted in rifle. Nah--that is only applicable when you are shooting inadequate toy guns with varmint bullets. Shoot a big magnum and being sighted in is not an issue--hit em anywhere from any angle. Only time you need to sight one of those in is in the unlikelihood the deer runs off then you need to sight in so you can blame it on the scope or something.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kablowey--You go flock shooting with an inaccurate rifle and don't even know it is inaccurate until your buddy tells you? Very ethical--ethical lesson--have buddy that can shoot so you can learn a rifle is inaccurate and not flock shoot with it again.
Teancum---I missed it where he listed something and reneged on the deal. His last hog hunting trip to Texas, his buddies just stayed in the cabin and wouldn't go out with him, so he didn't get to hunt. Guess he needed someone that could shoot and was a backup for him. Don't understand that he shoots em from one end to the other with NO meat damage. He did finally admit that he spreads the green stuff all through the meat.

You are making stuff up, and taking excerpts from several different hunts.

On a hog hunt, the reason my buddy stayed in the cabin was because he had been drinking, and didn't want to get out on the road, nor sit in a stand. It was a practical decision, and I didn't try to talk him into doing something unwise.

The stand with a high probability of seeing hogs was about five miles from the camp, which required driving on a paved road to get there. The best time to hunt is in the afternoon till dark - thirty, and my buddy just preferred getting saused than driving me to the stand. I didn't feel comfortable borrowing his truck, so I just gracefully hunted from a non-productive stand within walking distance from camp.

Regarding the unfortunate incident on a deer hunt, different year, I did sight in the rifle, good enough to hit the target at fifty yards, but I didn't test it thoroughly, since I could find only one box of ammo, some of the round nose Remington ammo. Later when we tested it carefully, we found that it would hold about a six inch group - worse with some loads, and better with some, but never better than about four inches.

My initial bet was that the rifle would be acceptably accurate, and I bet wrong. As I recall, I dialed it in with four or five rounds, and when I got one close to the point of aim, I took it hunting, and assumed no worse that a two inch group. In reality, it never did shoot a two inch group.

But I'm not blaming the whole incident on the rifle, although it contributed.

BTW, what's your excuse for using varmint bullets on deer? Remind us again of your 100% success ratio, and likewise for all those nimrods you know who also use 223 varmint bullets deer. I think that's amazing. You must be a remarkable shot, etc. Didn't you say that you tried cast bullets from a 223 on deer, and found that it didn't work too well? I could have told you that, but you didn't ask. How many deer did you lose before giving up the cast bullet experiment? Why did you mess with that anyway? That bulk purchase of seconds in varmint bullets not cheap enough for you?

KB

I rest my case.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
I rest my case.

Just what is your case. AH. Admiting mistakes is obviously unfamiliar to you. I'll bet it's something you avoid like your ego was at stake.

Anyway, my mistakes are not the point of this thread. It's AHs like you and carpetman who bring doubt and shame to the notion that the 223 is a deer cartridge. There are few who will openly admit to using explosive varmint bullets and fewer yet who claim 100% success, and the rarity is one like you who claims outrageous long shots with a 40gr bullet.

In carpetman's case he uses varmint type bullets because he doesn't know the difference, and because he can buy seconds bulk cheap.

It still amazes me that you aren't embarrased at all for such stunt shooting, and you get on the internet and brag about it, and act like it's no big deal.

It looks to me that you are not capable of learning. At least I learned from my mistakes, and my ego is not so disabeling as to prevent me from acknowledging mistakes.

You and carpetman are just a couple of blowhards with crippling egos.

KB

KB--Yes indeed I tried cast bullet on ONE deer. Was a .243, not a .223. This was a 95 grain (RCBS mold). The book said velocity should have been 2600 fps, but a chrono showed 2900. It was very accurate--grouping--not a pattern as yours was doing. I mistakenly thought it would be up for the task. Had easy shot and results were dismal. Deer ran off, not a drop of blood found. So it was a never again deal. The "varmint" bullet I use is very similar to A Remington Core Lokt which has taken lots of game. On your keyboard they explode on the skin, but in real life they penetrate and mushroom. Two bases have been recovered and they were 72% of original weight and perfect mushroom. Cost is not the factor for using them, several years of 100% perfect performance--the if it aint broke don't fix it is the reason. So what mistakes are you referring to? I do know the difference of whether they work--this is known from actual experience--not keyboard BS like you expel. If my buddies preferred getting drunk instead of hunting with me, I might be forced to make up crap on my keyboard, but we hunt and I can post facts. Blowhard--hmm wonder who that might be?

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
The "varmint" bullet I use is very similar to A Remington Core Lokt which has taken lots of game. On your keyboard they explode on the skin, but in real life they penetrate and mushroom. Two bases have been recovered and they were 72% of original weight and perfect mushroom. Cost is not the factor for using them, several years of 100% perfect performance--the if it aint broke don't fix it is the reason. So what mistakes are you referring to? I do know the difference of whether they work--this is known from actual experience--not keyboard BS like you expel.

http://www.midwayusa.com/produ...n-pointed-soft-point

The mfg specs differ from your experience, and it has nothing to do with my keyboard.

Also, notice the picture of a GOPHER on the box. That's your first clue.

"Recommended Uses:
• Varmint and Small Game Hunting

Notes:
• Rapid Expansion or Fragmentation on Impact
• Pointed bullet design retains velocity over long ranges."

Oh boy we are back to the picture on the box. I think there is also a pony express rider--does this mean we can shoot mailmen or horses?

quote:

Teancum--You are responsible to go into the field with a sighted in rifle. Nah--that is only applicable when you are shooting inadequate toy guns with varmint bullets. Shoot a big magnum and being sighted in is not an issue--hit em anywhere from any angle. Only time you need to sight one of those in is in the unlikelihood the deer runs off then you need to sight in so you can blame it on the scope or something.

I put KB on ignore when he seemed to have squat for hunting skills, and tried to tell me what everyone should use according to him. When you understand your game. The feeding habits, bedding trails, wind, cover, and all the other variables to hunting, what you shoot it with is way down on the list. Thats because you get the shot you choose, not a fleeting ass-end. He doesnt get that part I guess.

If you had respect for the game and the sport, you wouldn't choose a 223 for deer. All the rest is just blowing smoke.

KB

the back40--Kablowey doesn't know squat?? He's the Emily Post of hunting etiquette. Don't believe it--just ask him. Even if he has no experience he can still answer any question you may have with absolute facts (magical keyboard).

Kablowey--Respect? Is shooting a .257 R that is inaccurate and you don't even know it is inaccurate until someone else tells you --that is ethics and respect??

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

• Pointed bullet design retains velocity over long ranges."

That is funny. Pointy bullet go far Lenny. I'm glad Winchester gave us dummies the note. We probably couldn't figure that one out. LOL.

Scott--Winchester knew Kablowey would look at the picture for sure--I think he uses his crayons and colors them. They probably figured he might read the box too, so they needed to include the message that pointed bullets retain velocity better.

quote:

Posted 13 December 2012 05:23Hide Post
Kablowey--Respect? Is shooting a .257 R that is inaccurate and you don't even know it is inaccurate until someone else tells you --that is ethics and respect??

Lets see, I use a bullet win made as a deer bullet, the 64 grn powerpoint, that exits unless it hits a shoulder. I advocate 100 yds or less on broadside deer with a rest. That is unethical? But KB is respectfull when he shoots at deer with an unsighted rifle and doesnt know which he shoots at?
He's kind of like the priest that preaches against sin on sunday, then molests the alterboy on mon.

If you are going to all that trouble, and calling it a deer rifle, why don't you simply get a deer rifle? Why make a cartridge not designed for such purpose do a job it's not well suited for? What's the deal - ego, bragging rights? I don't get it.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
If you had respect for the game and the sport, you wouldn't choose a 223 for deer. All the rest is just blowing smoke.

KB

Kablowhard,

At one point in time I thought you knew of what you spoke. That point is long gone. Smoke blowing? You're the master.

I'm entitled to my opinion about the 223, and to express it. I have evidence and reason enough. It's just that I'm willing to say so despite opposition. I've seen the results of shooting deer with it, and didn't like what I saw, and see no point in trying it myself. I know exactly what the cartridge is capable of, and the variable of the shooter. I also see a lot of rationalization re the 223, and often it's hard to sort it out. There are a few clear blowhards, namely carpetbagger and teancum. Others, maybe, maybe not. But to claim that the 223 is a deer cartridge is a stretch. Although no doubt it will kill deer in the right situation, it's just too likely to wound and lose.

Now Kablowem has it that his buddy had been drinking. Originally all his buddies were drinking everyday. Now he is claiming having seen results--amazing he went from no actual experience nor ever witnessing it---to his buddies one bad experience. Now he has results to draw from. What a liar.

I was going to write my opinion about the 223 as a deer cartridge, but I changed my mind since this has sadly just turned into a public pissing contest...

Actually shooting deer with a .223 is not all that radical though it seems to be a means of satisfaction of limping by with the least possible rifle. There is one guy on these boards that likes to talk about killing a large zebra with a 300 yard head shot with one.
I suggest that we just up the size of the species to see what the limit of the .223 is.
Perhaps there are mulie, elk, caribou and moose shooters here that have used a .223 and will defend it to the death as an adequate round. I think you will find out some of these guys have no limits in that regard.

SR4759,
I wont defend this, but....
I have a farmer friend in Namibia. His then 14 yr old grandson showed me his photo album of the hunting he had been doing. He used his grandfathers CZ. 223. He has photo's of warthogs,heartabeasts,kudus and cow eland, all taken with that .223.
He hunted with an old poacher that lived on the farm. They got close to the animal, and shot them in the lungs. I also talked to the old blackfellow, he said "yes, very nice", the animal runs from here to there ( 50-150 yds) and fallsdown dead. I couldnt belive it either, but the proof was there.
SR, you may not like it, but used right, the .223 works fine for deer.
I always tell the kids I take out, better to pass up a shot then to risk losing an animal. I stand by that myself, no matter what I'm carrying, and have never shot, or shot at, the ass end of an animal.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
SR4759,

I always tell the kids I take out, better to pass up a shot then to risk losing an animal. I stand by that myself, no matter what I'm carrying, and have never shot, or shot at, the ass end of an animal.

An annal shot, Texas heart shot, ain't all bad if you're using equipment that'll get the job done. The .22 center fires don't cut it. A quartering away shot raking along the ribs and an angling through the shoulder with the deer lower quartering towards you fall into the same category . A fair percentage of people carrying a .22 center fire will take that type of shot when the ""adrenaline"" flows . The idea of only taking a shot when the conditions are just right just isn't applicable to a broad range of hunters so preaching to the multitudes about the adequacy of .22s on deer size game is just a lot of bunk. roger

quote:

The idea of only taking a shot when the conditions are just right just isn't applicable to a broad range of hunters

Where have I been preaching to a broad range of hunters? I'm telling you how I have been teaching young hunters. I'll take my way over teaching texas heart shots anytime. You do what you want, not stopping you, just dont tell me what I do and how I teach it wont work.
I teach these kids HUNTING SKILLS and awareness of whats around them and how nature works and why, this isnt about you, or the broad range of anyone. I only take exception to those who say what I'm doing wont work and what, a 243? will make all the differance used the same way?I have ZERO losses to date, so what will a bigger cartridge gain when used in the same manner?

quote:

I teach these kids HUNTING SKILLS

I suspect these kids know learn little of hunting. Most probably cannot haul the gun around on their own. They are probably being taught that hunting is sitting in a box blind and plinking a whitetail with a .223.