quote:

Originally posted by adamhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Well I see the 223 boosters did not bother to take up the real world challenge of "hunting" with a .223.
Anyone can "kill" a deer with a .223 but is it really hunting to snipe one at 25 or 30 yards?
Is that what you are telling kids is hunting?

SR,
While I am not touting the 223 is the end all be all of deer rifles, I do believe it is a capable round with the right loads. I have killed several deer with the 223 and stardard cup & core soft points. Two does and one buck, all DRT.

With regards to your "real world challenge", I doubt I would take any of those shots with a 300mag, let alone a 223. With regards to how far they would run, you can't answer that and neither can anyone else. Every deer is different. If the shot is on the mark, they would run no further than if shot with a 300, if they run at all. No deer that walks is any match for a 223 bullet thru the vitals.

I can answer that. I killed each of those deer and I used 3 different rifles. All were taken in the context of hunting not sniping, so all of the conditions were fair chase take them as they happen.

Yeah all deer will die when shot with a .223. The trouble is are you going to find them?
Will they run 20 yards or 400 in heavy brush?

If you want to get techincal about it, shooting a deer at 340 yards and 320 yards in a wheat field is about as sniping as you can get, fair chase or not. I have done it too and it certainly does not take the skill it does to read sign and pattern a nice buck and then take him.

With regards to your shots, sure you made those and can answer how those specific deer behaved. Can you answer how the next deer will act in the same scenarios or how they will act if the scenarios occur with me? Nope, you can't.

Again, short of using a field piece, I can't answer how far a given deer will run regardless of what he was shot with and neither can anyone else. I have trailed a lot of deer in my 30yrs of deer hunting, mine and others. I have never seen one that was shot good go terribly far. I have seen ones shot bad that went for miles.

quote:

With regards to your shots, sure you made those and can answer how those specific deer behaved. Can you answer how the next deer will act in the same scenarios or how they will act if the scenarios occur with me? Nope, you can't.

That is right. Now want to try to predict what happens with a dinky .223.
All my deer died within 10 second.

The deer in the wheat field were there when I snuck up to the field. They were not shot from a blind. No matter how you try to paint it a .223 is a sorry rifle for the normally distributed chances that occur during hunting. It is especially sorry when deer are in dense brush that allows them to disappear with a few jumps.

quote:

Originally posted by adamhunter:
SR,
I have killed several deer with the 223 and stardard cup & core soft points. Two does and one buck, all DRT.

I have no doubt that this is true. A percentage of formative hunters will read this and consider .224 frangible bullets from a center fire totally adequate to hunt deer of all sizes. A percentage of those will also go into the field and inflict some horrible wounds on many deer. Been there. Done that as and immature poorly informed youth and with well placed shots.
Evidence is what it is wither you accept it or not. Deer hunting with varmint bullets is totally immature IMHO.
As a father I taught my three sons to shoot and hunt at an early age , but not hunting before they were 9. Because of their exuberance and youthful response to stimulus a great amount of vigilance on my part had to be maintained. I found that taking more than one hunting at a time was a real chore and these were pretty savy kids.
Introspection indicates that the boys' gun prowess was a lot self serving to me and my ego. roger

quote:

Introspection indicates that the boys' gun prowess was a lot self serving to me and my ego. roger

Why? do your boys not continue with what they were taught? Or, even if they didnt, they should have learned a valueable lesson in responsability. What would be self serving about that? I consider it a great thing for a young person to learn at any age.
Have taken one mature 8, almost 9 yr old hunting, usually a bit older. I find a well thought out plan to be the best. Have your spots picked to set up at. Birds help pass the time. But be ready to move to the next ridge and set up when you see the legs start to twitch in the leaves to much! If you have the best trails and runs pre-scouted you have taken the random guesswork out of it. Plenty of snacks a must!

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

With regards to your shots, sure you made those and can answer how those specific deer behaved. Can you answer how the next deer will act in the same scenarios or how they will act if the scenarios occur with me? Nope, you can't.

That is right. Now want to try to predict what happens with a dinky .223.
All my deer died within 10 second.

The deer in the wheat field were there when I snuck up to the field. They were not shot from a blind. No matter how you try to paint it a .223 is a sorry rifle for the normally distributed chances that occur during hunting. It is especially sorry when deer are in dense brush that allows them to disappear with a few jumps.

I could add that ANY shot in dense brush where a deer could disappear within a few jumps is sorry, regardless of the rifle and is a complete straw argument to the validity of the 223 as a suitable deer killer. I would also call you on the statement that the 223 is sorry for the "normally distributed shots" that occur during hunting. Perhaps for a small subset of the shots that occur during hunting but not for the multitude as you suggest. Neither can you predict how the next deer you shoot with your "suitable" caliber will react when shot.

If you want to make arguments against the little 223 at least use facts and not political-style posturing about what has yet to happen and is unknowable. Unless of course, you're one of those damnable Christmas Ghosts of Christmas yet to come?

QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by adamhunter:
SR,
I have killed several deer with the 223 and stardard cup & core soft points. Two does and one buck, all DRT.

I have no doubt that this is true. A percentage of formative hunters will read this and consider .224 frangible bullets from a center fire totally adequate to hunt deer of all sizes. A percentage of those will also go into the field and inflict some horrible wounds on many deer.

Roger,
I am sure there is some truth to what you are saying. Though I disagree with a cup and core bullets ( I used 64gr. Winchester Power Points) being a frangible.. The same hunters who will shoot deer with a varmit grenade bullet out of a 223 are also the same ones who will shoot at a deer standing in a bush with nothing but his nose showing or starts slinging lead at the ass of a deer he jumps. I don’t have much use for those types either.

I am thinking back on the last four or five deer I have shot; all were under normal hunting conditions – free range, fair chase, I was either in a treestand or sitting on the ground; all but one deer were broadside, relaxed and feeding in either a green field or fairly open hardwoods and within 70 yards or so. The one that was not relaxed was a 10pt I shot last year chasing does. With the exception of the 10pt, I would have taken the shot on any of them with a 223. I don’t shoot unless I know I can make a good shot, regardless of the caliber I have at the time. That’s just me though.

I stand by my original response to Hammer…with a good bullet and some limitations there is nothing wrong with a 223 as a deer rifle. If you expect it to shoot thru trees or drop a deer drt no matter where you hit it, then a 223 is not for you..then again neither is anything else

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

IMO, seven is way too young to be hunting.
KB

X 2 roger

I sure am glad my father didn't think the way you and KaBS think, seeing as how he died when I was eight. Its been 27 years now and I still remember following him around on dove hunts picking up purple 16ga hulls, and carrying out the squirrels, and my first rabbit or my first trip to deer camp and my first deer.

Those initial outings started me down a path that has brought myself and people I have introduced to the sport a tremendous amount of joy. Its also allowed me to develop a knowledge base that payed my bills for over a decade.

This post is a perfect example of why I hadn't looked at this site in years and don't post much. I don't know why everything has to be a d*%$ swinging contest here when it comes to the tools of the trade. You can't legislate ethics or skill and every body has to start somewhere.

Bunch of know-it-all jac@&%&%^.

Hammer2506--Shame on you, not teaching your daughter hunting skills. You let her take a slam dunk shot at 70 yards---that's not hunting. Teach her how to stalk away from the game so she can make some long range real hunter shots. If she uses a .223, kick the crap out of her after the shot to simulate using a magnum. Make her learn to wait until the animal is in a bad position to shoot---hell anyone can make a slam dunk 70 yard shot on a well positioned deer. If she cant grasp stalking away to make longer real hunter shots, mount her scope backwards to at least simulate a long shot. I don't know if it is proportional or not but if it is, a 70 yard shot on a backwards 9 power shot would appear like a 630 yard that MIGHT give her a little respect amongst real hunters. BTW, you didn't mention if you do have her scope mounted backwards, if so maybe you could post that and shut up some of the idiot skeptics.

I still think you are an exaggerator by nature, as with many who use the 223 for deer.

I think the comparison with the 180gr 30 cal is an exaggeration.
Quoted By Kablower

I think your implication that the kid is well trained and with full knowledge is an exaggeration. She's only a baby.

I think that you don't even know what is and what aint an exaggeration.

The proof, dear sir, is not in the picture. That only shows a dead deer and a little girl. The details are left for us to believe your exaggerations or to believe common sense.

I'm not saying that either the 223 or the baby girl are not capable of taking a deer. I'm saying that neither are well suited for the task, and both are capable of lucking out.

I don't say this to offend, but to just speak plainly and express my opinion on the matter. I think there is no seven year old in the world who is ready to "hunt" deer, and marginally ready to snipe deer from a steady rest in a stand. I think using a 223 because of the light recoil so a baby can snipe deer is just not right.

As to the use of the partition -- good choice. If I used a 223 I would probably use a Barnes.

KB


Well Kablower I can say this, I do know what a dumbass is and you fit that description to a "T". All of your stupid ass comments on other peoples post add up to the same thing which is BULLSHIT. I guess you think you are the only person who can judge when a person should start hunting and what rifle and caliber are appropriate to use. That picture represents a memory that my little girl will always have with her and one that we both can cherish forever, not some grumpy ass old man judging her and telling her she is not capable of taking a deer and that she can't go hunting til she is a certain age. I think that when you start out young you learn to appreciate hunting more. I was not taking her to snipe deer in the first place, she has been numerous times with me without a gun and then said she wanted to shoot a deer. So I did what a responsible father would do and started out with a bb gun and progressed on. Now it is not like I was leaving her alone, I was there with here. If all the other dumbass people in the country would stand up and be more responsible and spend more quality time with their children hunting and fishing the United States would not be in as bad of shape as it is today. As far as bullet use goes partitions have never failed me on any hunt with any caliber and are more accurate than Barnes. I think you get off on trying to offend people and degrading their choices of calibers and bullets. I myself think you are a what most people refer to as a internet hunter.

quote:

Posted 21 December 2012 04:07 Hide Post
Hammer2506--Shame on you, not teaching your daughter hunting skills. You let her take a slam dunk shot at 70 yards---that's not hunting. Teach her how to stalk away from the game so she can make some long range real hunter shots. If she uses a .223, kick the crap out of her after the shot to simulate using a magnum. Make her learn to wait until the animal is in a bad position to shoot---hell anyone can make a slam dunk 70 yard shot on a well positioned deer. If she cant grasp stalking away to make longer real hunter shots, mount her scope backwards to at least simulate a long shot. I don't know if it is proportional or not but if it is, a 70 yard shot on a backwards 9 power shot would appear like a 630 yard that MIGHT give her a little respect amongst real hunters. BTW, you didn't mention if you do have her scope mounted backwards, if so maybe you could post that and shut up some of the idiot skeptics.

Carpetman, I have to say that is a good one, on maybe the next hunt I will mount her scope backwards and punch her on the shoulder to simulate the 300 magnum and tell her how dumb it was to take a 70 yd shot. Hell maybe we will walk away from the deer til we get at least 400yds and let the deer turn away. I think that kablower has all of his scopes backwards if he even has a scope.

Hammer--You don't have to defend yourself or your daughter for doing a great job. I just hope the idiots don't prevent you from posting about the next one and I hope there are many more next ones.

There will always be idiots just look at who got voted in for president, and look at who is the one who always shoots down these type posts, even with factual information. It's not like I am trying to prove something on here, I'm just sharing a moment with other people whom I know that share the same interest that I do, except for a few.

quote:

Originally posted by hammer2506:
There will always be idiots just look at who got voted in for president, and look at who is the one who always shoots down these type posts, even with factual information. It's not like I am trying to prove something on here, I'm just sharing a moment with other people whom I know that share the same interest that I do, except for a few.

I love to post on these boards my success with the .223 using varmint bullets at long ranges. First to relate the success of the caliber and the methods used and second just to piss off the bullshitters that say it can't be done....Simple

Keep on taking your cute little daughter out and keep her shooting that .223.

I just cant wait for SR to quit being so modest and tells us the rest of the story about the blindfold and the back flips he is doing. Yes indeed a real hunter. No 7 year old wanabee. I did offer him a real world challenge to go tell Saeed he is a wimp in that he doesn't field dress the game he kills in Africa. I can see he hasn't accepted that.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
I love to post on these boards my success with the .223 using varmint bullets at long ranges.

Spoken like a true believer in need of affirmation.

It's odd that you don't mention the inevitable failures of pushing the edge.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by hammer2506:
Carpetman, I have to say that is a good one, on maybe the next hunt I will mount her scope backwards and punch her on the shoulder to simulate the 300 magnum and tell her how dumb it was to take a 70 yd shot. Hell maybe we will walk away from the deer til we get at least 400yds and let the deer turn away. I think that kablower has all of his scopes backwards if he even has a scope.

More exaggeration. One thing common to all 223 users for deer - good imagination.

KB

quote:

Well folks it is true, My 7 year old daughter killed her first deer today with her little 223 with a 60gr Partition loaded by me. The shot was about 70 yards and I do admit it was a little high but It completely took out the lungs and backbone. The deer dropped in her tracks and never took a step. It surprised me because I was looking for her to run. It's amazing how the little 60gr partition performed. The entry wound was 1/4" and throughout the body was about 1.00" wound channel. The exit was about 1/2"

Hammer2506

There is absolutely nothing wrong about your choices, and congrats to you, your daughter, and in fact you deserve to be commended for bringing another hunter along. You could not have done it any other way at 7 yrs old. You made a good choice, rifle/cartridge, little or no recoil, and above all, you chose a proper bullet to accomplish the mission, and accomplish it she did.

Now, I have watched this from the beginning, and have been reluctant to make a comment. I have no dog in this fight at all, and don't care one way or the other who chooses what to shoot deer with. I don't hunt deer so I don't care. I am a big bore fanatic, and 98% of everything I do is related to big bore rifles, and yes, bigger the bore, the more effect you have on anything, end of story.

But, my 9 yr old daughter cannot handle any of my B&M rifles, not yet anyway!

This should be all about bullet choice. Today, there are good, some really good, .224 caliber bullets out there than can make 223 a very reasonable deer + cartridge. There are many .224 bullets out there that SHOULD NOT BE USED at all. But make no mistake, this is true regardless of caliber or cartridge. It's up to you, the shooter, the hunter, to make the right choices for bullets that will accomplish the mission in which you embark.

Two seasons now I have had some of my friends in the field with the various BBW#13s, or ESP Raptors in .224. 55 #13 NonCon, 50 ESP Raptor, and 40 ESP Raptor. To date, I count 15 or so deer taken with these bullets, most in 223 Remington, but a couple in other higher capacity 223 cartridges. The vast majority of these deer "Dropped To the Shot", and never moved again, and all but a couple were heart/lung shots. From their reports the ones that did not drop immediately went 20-30 yds and piled up stone cold. The internal damage reported was tremendous to say the least, and on the terminal thread in Big Bores some time back SRose posted photos of a deer shot with a 40 ESP Raptor fired at 4000 or so fps from one of his high capacity 223 cartridges. The remaining bullet exited, and destroyed everything in between. Deer dropped to the shot. Massive trauma inflicted.

I fail to see how when proper bullets are chosen that even 223 cannot be effective. In fact, these are so effective that I set up two rifles just to shoot these bullets proper. Both were Winchester M70s in 223 Remington. One was a heavy varminter it got a new 22 inch 1:8 heavy barrel. The other was a little sporter, it got a new 20 inch sporter barrel, and I have it set up for both my wife, and my 9 yr old daughter to use while we are in the field in Africa. With these bullets none of the smaller antelopes even medium size antelopes are out of reach of 223 Remington. All the while, being mild enough for the girls to enjoy shooting.

There are other excellent bullets that put the 223 Remington in the running as well, Barnes TSX and Hammers Nosler fit the bill obviously as well.

Oh for sure, my 500 MDM is far more effective on these same antelope I have a 335gr BBW#13 that can run nearly 3000 fps from 20 inch barrel. You should see what that does to the insides of a 500 lb animal! However, my 9 yr old daughter is not ready for a 100 ft lbs of recoil just yet! Maybe by the time she is 16 or so!

Michael

Michael,
Many seem to deride the .223 use because you have to wait for a "perfect" shot. Would your bullets be up to a quartering shot, either from the front or behind? This is just a curiosity question, not to advocate it.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Michael,
Many seem to deride the .223 use because you have to wait for a "perfect" shot. Would your bullets be up to a quartering shot, either from the front or behind? This is just a curiosity question, not to advocate it.

Hi Back40

First, before I get accused of being a bullet pimp, they are not my bullets. They are made by Cutting Edge Bullets. And while I worked on the design, and the small bores are a direct descendant of the BBW#13 which I had a great deal to do with the design, and I tested all big bore and small bore before they were approved for production, they are still not my bullets, and I work for no bullet company, and I have no bullets for sale to anyone.

Just to make that perfectly clear from the beginning.

In the test work here penetration ran from 8 inches to 11 inches from 40 to 55 gr. Rule of thumb at this point with a NonCon is 100% or double penetration in animal tissue, as opposed to test medium. Which would give you as a rule of thumb, from 16 to 22 inches of penetration in animal tissue, dependent upon many factors, velocity at impact, bone contacted, or other factors that might alter the norm.

Of the deer I know of taken with these so far, there have been no bullet recovered. All broad sides or near broadsides, or any angled shots have exited. I think there have been a couple of frontals, those did not exit from dead on, but were not found. One angled frontal I know of with a 55 BBW#13 did exit just in front of one of the rear legs. Having not examined any of these myself, I can only go on what is conveyed to me. One of my closest friends here has done the bulk of the shooting with them and loves the effect. He tells me in all his years of hunting he has never seen anything like it.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by hammer2506:
Carpetman, I have to say that is a good one, on maybe the next hunt I will mount her scope backwards and punch her on the shoulder to simulate the 300 magnum and tell her how dumb it was to take a 70 yd shot. Hell maybe we will walk away from the deer til we get at least 400yds and let the deer turn away. I think that kablower has all of his scopes backwards if he even has a scope.

More exaggeration. One thing common to all 223 users for deer - good imagination.

KB

Ahh the old Kbo just goes on and on scattering his useless thoughts, wait I'm sure there is more to come from the old flock shooter.

Michael,
Thankyou for the reply. I do think of them as your bullets, because you have been so involved in them, but know the whole story!
It's hard to wrap your head around the performance of bullets like this. I need to get hold of my friend in Namibia and get some for him to try in his caliber choice. He does a crapload of cull work and can give me feedback.
Off topic, so now, back to the name calling.

quote:

Michael,
Thankyou for the reply. I do think of them as your bullets, because you have been so involved in them, but know the whole story!

Back40

No thanks needed. And the rest is ok too, just some folks are not as bright as you are! LOl........

I concur with you, it is hard to wrap the conventional taught mind around them, it was for myself as well. And, it took some time and lots of work both on the range and in the field to fully understand them and how they work.

Happy Holidays to all!
Michael

May have been mentioned earlier in the thread, but at any reasonable range (200 yds and in), a 22 cal bullet is fine.....BUT shot placement (as always) is most important. Learn to shoot well and the animal will be taken humanely. I've seen quite a few deer drop DRT with a Hornet and personally have taken a few with a 221 FB. Bang flop with a hit to the base of the neck. No follow up shots later either. Is 22 cal my first choice....goodness no. But it's what was available (in the hunter's hand) when the opportunity presented itself. Flame away.

quote:

Originally posted by BillCx55:
May have been mentioned earlier in the thread, but at any reasonable range (200 yds and in), a 22 cal bullet is fine.....BUT shot placement (as always) is most important. Learn to shoot well and the animal will be taken humanely. I've seen quite a few deer drop DRT with a Hornet and personally have taken a few with a 221 FB. Bang flop with a hit to the base of the neck. No follow up shots later either. Is 22 cal my first choice....goodness no. But it's what was available (in the hunter's hand) when the opportunity presented itself. Flame away.

Now we are out to 200 yards as a useful range for a small cased 22 centerfire. Sooner or later we are going to be up to 300 yards on Cape Buffalo given good shot placement and a good bullet for DRT kills.
The truth is hunting in most areas is not sniping and there are significant variables and probabilities involved. What might work on the wide open spaces of the great plains is not necessarily so hot in thick brush.

In the open you might be able to watch a deer run for a mile. In the bush they can disappear in 10 feet.

You tell me if you have a trophy buck staring at you quarter head on that you will not take the shot--- even though in the brush he can disappear in 2 jumps.

With a .223 you often are going to be trailing, trailing, trailing....with not much of an entrance or exit hole and often NO exist hole.

quote:

Originally posted by BillCx55:
May have been mentioned earlier in the thread, but at any reasonable range (200 yds and in), a 22 cal bullet is fine.....BUT shot placement (as always) is most important. Learn to shoot well and the animal will be taken humanely. I've seen quite a few deer drop DRT with a Hornet and personally have taken a few with a 221 FB. Bang flop with a hit to the base of the neck. No follow up shots later either.

I have a good friend who would spout that BS all the time. He has a AR15 in 223 that will shoot 2" groups, or so, at 200 yds. He would neck shoot deer, and did quite well with it.

One evening we were both sitting in one of his large Texas stands, and he shot a doe at about 200 yds, in the neck. That doe flopped around for about fifteen minutes, and I kept telling him he had better shoot it again. Finally she laid still.

After it got too dark to shoot, we got the buggy and drove over to where she last lay. She was gone, and we could hear her staggering through the bushes. He tried to track her down, but no success.

So much for the neck shots, and the theory of it. Now he doesn't use the 223 anymore except for coyoties.

BTW, the use of the hornet on deer ought to be a crime.

KB

Kowblower--How was the story you related .223 failure? It was human failure. What kind of person would watch a deer in plain sight flop around for 15 minutes? Do the decent thing and walk out there and render a finishing shot. 200 yards would be too long a distance to do it from with your unsighted .257Roberts, but up close you should be able to hit it. The shot was not well placed obviously--results could have been the same no matter how big the cartridge.
You are correct--the use of a .22 hornet on deer should be a crime. Using one and making a well placed shot will kill the deer. Go out there with an unsighted, inaccurate .257Roberts and flock shoot em and you can cripple a whole bunch of them.

Carpetdragger,
I can't even tell a straight story of experience without you dragging your shit all through it.

If it wasn't a 223, he wouldn't have felt the need for a neck shot. He over relied on accuracy to make up for the inadequacy of the cartridge. Many of you 223 lovers do it. Ya'll preach about shot placment and such, when often shot placment isn't even enough when using the 223. On the failures I've seen the placment was adequate had the cartridge been adequate.

BTW, have you ever seen one of those little house dogs drag its ass over the carpet with its little hind feet up in the air? That's what I think of re you, thus the nic-name carpetdragger.

KB

I think I sense some tentative disagreement here.

I do see what KB is saying about people insisting their caliber is good because they can kill with neck/head shots which can be dicey at best. I personally would not field a caliber where I thought neck/head shots were what i needed to cleanly kill the animal. I see the same thing on 6.8 forums which I don't understand. Use enough caliber/bullet to have confidence in a heart/lung shot. That said, most of the supporters on this thread regularly take heart/lung shot with the 223 and are successful and I have no problems with that at all.

Kablowjob---Even with .223 I don't take head and neck shots--no need in it. You wait for good presentation whether .223 or 30-06 if you don't get it--the deer won--you pass.. Whichever you have a down deer flopping around, you do the humane thing and finish it off. I suspect you can figure out where I think your name comes from.
At any rate you fail to answer the question--how was this .223 failure? You don't know where hit and certainly don't know if results would not have been the same with any other cartridge. Maybe .223 should be banned in hands of idiots. I still can't believe even you would fail to give a finishing shot.

Just an observation, from in the field experience. While I have seen and field dressed or helped field dress quite a few deer killed with .222's/.223's and the .22-250, and have even killed a deer with a .22 Hornet.

I have even recommended the use of the various .224's, except the Hornet, for kids and women, when they were just getting started, simply because of the reduced recoil and ranges of 100 yards or less, the shooter would be better able to concentrate on bullet placement. This works, even on heart/lung shots, providing, the terrain allows for visual contact of the animal should it run off after the shot.

Truth is, yes the various .224's can and do kill a lot of deer each year, but from actual experience, I have yet to see an exit wound, with a heart/lung shot on a doe from 75 yards on out.

I am on of those folks that feel the minimum for hunting deer should be the .243. I know a lot of folks that use the various .224's and quite successfully, but in my opinion, there is just too small of a margin of error.

I am the same way with archer's. I know that thousands of animals all over the world killed annually by archer's, but I talk to too many archer's and they talk about the one's they shot and never found.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Just an observation, from in the field experience. While I have seen and field dressed or helped field dress quite a few deer killed with .222's/.223's and the .22-250, and have even killed a deer with a .22 Hornet.

I have even recommended the use of the various .224's, except the Hornet, for kids and women, when they were just getting started, simply because of the reduced recoil and ranges of 100 yards or less, the shooter would be better able to concentrate on bullet placement. This works, even on heart/lung shots, providing, the terrain allows for visual contact of the animal should it run off after the shot.

Truth is, yes the various .224's can and do kill a lot of deer each year, but from actual experience, I have yet to see an exit wound, with a heart/lung shot on a doe from 75 yards on out.

I am on of those folks that feel the minimum for hunting deer should be the .243. I know a lot of folks that use the various .224's and quite successfully, but in my opinion, there is just too small of a margin of error.

I am the same way with archer's. I know that thousands of animals all over the world killed annually by archer's, but I talk to too many archer's and they talk about the one's they shot and never found.

Well lets ban all archery hunting, hell lets just ban all hunting, because we all know no matter what you do or how careful you are crap sometimes happens. I have killed many animals with archery equipment and to be perfectly honest about it, I feel way more confident of a quick kill with a CF .224 in my hands.
Now that we have decided to ban all hunting because it is too risky an activity for the deer and some of them may be injured or die, I guess all our OPINIONS are moot and we may as well sell our guns except for our benchrest and f-class rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
I just cant wait for SR to quit being so modest and tells us the rest of the story about the blindfold and the back flips he is doing. Yes indeed a real hunter. No 7 year old wanabee. I did offer him a real world challenge to go tell Saeed he is a wimp in that he doesn't field dress the game he kills in Africa. I can see he hasn't accepted that.

Carpet,
I don't read much of your worthless commentary. I had no idea you made such a challenge. So you tell me about backflips and blindfolds ok, that is when I bother to read your worthless commentary.

Sr--Indeed you have alluded to these kindergartners that cant field dress their kill. I did say that I doubt that Saeed field dresses the game he kills in Africa. If you will pick on the kids but wont pick on Saeed for the same thing sure doesn't say much for you. So now you do have the idea that I made a challenge for you to do it--come tell us about doing it. It is obvious I made up the part about the blindfolds and backflips. But I don't put much stock in anything you have to offer.

Careful, he's watched youtube video's. He knows what he's talking about.

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Well lets ban all archery hunting, hell lets just ban all hunting, because we all know no matter what you do or how careful you are crap sometimes happens. I have killed many animals with archery equipment and to be perfectly honest about it, I feel way more confident of a quick kill with a CF .224 in my hands.Now that we have decided to ban all hunting because it is too risky an activity for the deer and some of them may be injured or die, I guess all our OPINIONS are moot and we may as well sell our guns except for our benchrest and f-class rifles.

Dude, you need to step outside and get some air. I don't want to see any thing banned, so calm your ass down. You talk about opinions, I just gave mine, nothing more. You have your opinions, I have mine.

I have seen and been in on the killing of quite a few deer, with people using the various .224's. As I have stated, I have killed one deer with a 22 Hornet, you done that Skippy, I damn well doubt it. The only deer I know that I hit and lost was with that same gun. That is why I stopped using the Hornet for shooting deer.

If each and every person trying to kill a deer had the exact same level of experience and expertise there would not be any problem, but that is NOT how the REAL WORLD works.

People, whether they are using a gun or bow, have a really bad habit of trying to let the equipment, make up or take the place of experience. If EVERYONE using the .224's would keep their shots to under 125 yards or so and archers would keep their shots to 40 yards or less and be competent with their equipment, I would not have the reservations I have.

BUT, Skippy, humans are humans and they continually try to push the envelope and expect the equipment and gadgets to take the place of experience and ability.

While you may have the experience and ability to do what you claim, not everyone is as gifted. THAT is what causes the problems!

Just because YOU may or claim to have the ability, not EVERYONE else can produce the same level of performance you claim to. The reason our Game & Fish Laws are worded the way they are, is because intelligent people understand that not EVERYONE possesses the same level of expertise with their chosen equipment.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Well lets ban all archery hunting, hell lets just ban all hunting, because we all know no matter what you do or how careful you are crap sometimes happens. I have killed many animals with archery equipment and to be perfectly honest about it, I feel way more confident of a quick kill with a CF .224 in my hands.Now that we have decided to ban all hunting because it is too risky an activity for the deer and some of them may be injured or die, I guess all our OPINIONS are moot and we may as well sell our guns except for our benchrest and f-class rifles.

Dude, you need to step outside and get some air. I don't want to see any thing banned, so calm your ass down. You talk about opinions, I just gave mine, nothing more. You have your opinions, I have mine.

I have seen and been in on the killing of quite a few deer, with people using the various .224's. As I have stated, I have killed one deer with a 22 Hornet, you done that Skippy, I damn well doubt it. The only deer I know that I hit and lost was with that same gun. That is why I stopped using the Hornet for shooting deer.

If each and every person trying to kill a deer had the exact same level of experience and expertise there would not be any problem, but that is NOT how the REAL WORLD works.

People, whether they are using a gun or bow, have a really bad habit of trying to let the equipment, make up or take the place of experience. If EVERYONE using the .224's would keep their shots to under 125 yards or so and archers would keep their shots to 40 yards or less and be competent with their equipment, I would not have the reservations I have.

BUT, Skippy, humans are humans and they continually try to push the envelope and expect the equipment and gadgets to take the place of experience and ability.

While you may have the experience and ability to do what you claim, not everyone is as gifted. THAT is what causes the problems!

Just because YOU may or claim to have the ability, not EVERYONE else can produce the same level of performance you claim to. The reason our Game & Fish Laws are worded the way they are, is because intelligent people understand that not EVERYONE possesses the same level of expertise with their chosen equipment.

You were the guy that said you though the minimum allowed for deer should be a .243, right? Then you wade in on the archery hunters and it seems you think they are less efficient at killing deer than archery equipment, right? It just follows that you would like to see them banned as well doesn't it?

BTW Skippy, what did I claim? That I have the patience and wherewithal to wait on an high percentage killing shot no matter what weapon I use? I do not recall making that claim, but it is true. Are you talking about marksmanship? Shooting a little doe through the lungs with a CF 224 aint no great feat.

No not all folks have the same level of experience or expertise, but it does not take much of either to kill deer with a .223. We have literally loaded down a 12 foot trailer shooting axis does under a light using 223s. I cannot recall even one not being recovered. We used to thin the herd at Waldamar near Hunt, TX and on a couple ranches near CampWood, Fossil Creek and Four Canyons.

The hunters in your area must be some real goobers or something for you to have such a low opinion of the average hunters abilities.

BTW I have never shot one with a hornet, but killed several with 22 long rifles as a youngster, never lost one of those either. You must have been shooting some crap bullets or made a crap shot with your hornet if you lost a deer. Deer are not hard to kill, they are not wearing kevlar, they are not magical. Any decent bullet through the lungs of any deer walking results in a dead deer post haste.
Some people just do not have a lot of problems killing animals no matter what you put in their hands, some do. Maybe you are in the later group, don't know that, but am leaning that way.

I've seen more deer wounded by those who believe using a bigger gun will make up for poor shooting, than anything else.

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You were the guy that said you though the minimum allowed for deer should be a .243, right? Then you wade in on the archery hunters and it seems you think they are less efficient at killing deer than archery equipment, right? It just follows that you would like to see them banned as well doesn't it?

No, Skippy, what it means, is that not everyone has the experience level to know when and when not to take a shot, whether with a bow or a gun. Last time I checked, TP&W DOES NOT require a proficiency test to purchase a hunting license.

Also, Colorado and other states do have a minimum caliber requirement for hunting deer and other Big Game.

As far as archery is concerned, if the individual can accept a 5 to 10% loss rate, then more power to them, I just don't agree with it, but that does not mean in any way that I want to see archery hunting outlawed/banned. I would much rather see the use of the drugs that are allowed in Mississippi, legalized in other states.

Regardless of your protestations and baseless accusations, from my experience, I just do not believe that the .224's should be legal for hunting white tail in Texas. I do not ever see that happening, but it is not going to bother me one second if it did become law.

You ran your mouth about all the axis and white tails you killed with a .223, just one question for you or ANY of the other .223 supporters. How many of you would pick a .223 to go after a real trophy white tail, 170 B&C or bigger, and how many ranches would let you try that chit?

As for this little tid bit of horse chit:

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Some people just do not have a lot of problems killing animals no matter what you put in their hands, some do. Maybe you are in the later group, don't know that, but am leaning that way.

As I said, I have killed a deer with a Hornet. If I remember correctly you said you had not done that. I do not have any problem killing anything with whatever I am using. However, I have been killing stuff for about 45 years now and during that time I have learned that not everyone has sense enough to understand that they do not possess the knowledge or abilities to use what in many peoples eyes are marginal equipment.

It is a sad fact of life as far as humans are concerned, a shooter with only one years experience will honestly believe that they are just as capable and competent as someone that has been hunting for years, and that just does not work in many cases.