Mine is a Glock 31 with 4.49 inch bbl and the hexagonal rifling. I was surprised to find that this bbl will push the 147 gr TMJs and HPs to nearly 1300 fps with no pressure problems. Must be the extra .49 inches of bbl and that slick bore.

In any event, I think that the 147 HPs are made to expand at 9MM velocities and the TMJs don't expand at all. Perhaps some good plated 147s will penetrate well and expand as well...the 158 gr plated Raniers certainly do at 1300 fps.

I plan some tests with these 147 plated bullets, and if they get to .500 inches in wet news print I might consider trying them on deer this year.

If they pass the test and i keep shots to 30 - 40 yards for eastern white tails is this ethical?

"they pass the test and i keep shots to 30 - 40 yards for eastern white tails is this ethical?"

No. Because you had to ask, which means you have doubts. If you have doubts, yet do it anyway, then it's not ethical.

I plan on shooting a deer with my 38 super sooner or later. 140 grain Hornadys do well for me. I live downhill from you.

I've seen deer taken with 158 gr. semi-wadcutters out of 6" .357 Magnum.One shot too.
I don't see any reason that a Sig or the Super wouldn't work as long as you stay within range.

It seems as if some guys just keep pushing the envelope. Soon we will have some of you hunting deer with .38 wadcutters or .25 autos. If you are prepared to loose some deer, go ahead with the mouse guns.
I bet a lot of you rifle hunt with a 30-06 or 300 mag yet expect a little pistol to do as good a job. I never hear a rifle hunter ask how small of a caliber is best for hunting.
Why not use a .17 HMR pistol and go for head shots? Or better yet, a pellet gun. Are slingshots next?
The idea is to be ethical in your hunting. If you can't afford an ethical handgun, leave it home and take the rifle.
Yeah, your gun shoots light bullets real fast but bullet weight and diameter is what kills, not speed. Those guns were made for humans that stop with any shot from any gun unless they are doped up or afraid of getting caught. Deer run through the woods when hit, not on a sidewalk! You need a good blood trail. Buy a bigger gun.

If deer hunting with a .22 Magnum rifle is legal in many states putting a .35 caliber bullet weighing almost four times as much in the same spot must be "ethical". Besides it is not the caliber one shoots that makes you an ethical hunter or not, it is what you do with it. I have meet too mant BoZos over the years who carry rifles that could kill an elephant, who never practice and consistantly wound and loose deer...their the ones with the ethics problem.

As to a load, if your gun will shoot that fast, look at the Speer 147 Gold Dot HP or the Hornady XTP. Both expand at the higher velocities and hold together well.

Bob

Is that some of McNett's ammo? If not, and for anyone with "standard caliber" pistols, you need to stop by his site and look at the velocities he's making. Good, smart guy with a good product.

Doubletapammo.com

And I have absolutely NOTHING to do with him or his business.

FWIW......I carry a SIG 229 in .357 SIG and have killed forty? sixty? road hit deer over the past few years. We carry the 125 gr WW SXT's which perform very well. Most were muleys and some were shot in excess of 25 yds.

The .357 SIG seems to perform the same as my old 4" M66 did with 125 mags.

I've NEVER found ANY whitetail to be tough to kill when hit in the heart/lung area with most anything .357 or above.

FN

Not legal in Kansas due to the cartridge length but if it was I would not hesitate to use one.

As far as ethical I let the Fish & Game worry about that part.

RJM, My question is, how many deer have you tracked down shot with the .22 magnum? How many have you tracked down shot with a .357 that did not pass through? Without a good blood trail from the cartridge being used, you are going to lose deer! Yes, they die, but can they be found?
I agree about the boobs that use such powerful guns and still lose deer because they can't shoot, are afraid of the gun and never practice. We have a bunch around here that use 7mm and 300 magnums and cripple deer every year. They think power makes up for good shots. Not so, the gun can be too powerful and also too small for deer. Too small of a caliber through the boiler room will indeed kill but you have to, as an ethical hunter, find the deer. Any caliber from the .357 down is not ethical. A survay taken some time ago showed that deer shot with the .357 were lost 50% of the time with good hits. The .44 had 100% recovery. Any small caliber gun made for concealed carry is TOO SMALL. The question is not did the gun kill, but did you bring the deer home or did it run off and die somewhere? Or did it recover?
Yes, a bunch of you have taken and recovered deer with the mouse guns. I have seen deer shot with about everything and have taken a pile of them with bullets inside of them that were healed up, encased in gristle.
What is the problem with getting a larger caliber for hunting? There are target guns, carry guns, and hunting guns.
And shooting deer on the side of the road after being hit by cars is no indication of what the gun will do in the field. A shot to the head at several inches proves nothing. My friend made a test with a pellet gun on a dead deer. The pellets penetrated to the brain. But, would that have killed a live deer? I had several friends that were shot through the brain in WWII and lived.

BFRshooter,

If the last paragraph was aimed at my "road hit deer" comment, read it again. I mentioned killing deer out past 25 yards. Not at "several inches". As a matter of fact shot a whitetail today all tangled in a fence at 35-40 yds. Through the heart/lung area and by the time I walked over from the Patrol car he was dead. The .357 SIG with the SXT (faux Black Talons) work very well.

I agree with using enough gun as well. But DO have to admit that all the whitetails and muleys I've killed over the years ...... none had on ballisitc armor or were bulletproof. Just don't get all the hoo-hah over difficult to kill deer.

FN in MT

I never said that they would not kill, just that they are not the best in the field. Deer hit by cars and stuck in fences are just sitting there and can't run off. Lots of time for a properly placed shot and no tracking needed. Being able to move around the crippled animal for the best position for a killing shot makes it easy too. In that case, a .22 magnum to the chest or heart would also be effective. You are confusing dispatching animals with hunting them. The lowly .22 LR to the heart will also do the job on a cripple.
No, you can't change my mind about what is best for hunting. I have cut the throats on many road crippled deer with my pocket knife. I never hunt with a pocket knife even though they are VERY good killers.

bf...I totally agree there are better cartridges for hunting deer and even though I own several .22 Magnums and hunt where it is legal never have done so. But the people I know who do shoot deer with the .22 Magnum and .223 seem to be a little more skilled as "hunters" rather than just "sports". They don't take chancy shots and their deer rarely take a step.

Bob

The Eskimos kill polar bears with .22's. There are some good, cool shots and great hunters. However, the vast majority of people I see in the field should not be hunting with any gun until they get training and undergo some kind of test. Most never shoot their guns until opening day.
When I go out in the spring looking for shrooms, I find deer carcases everywhere. I found 4 in 1/4 acre this last spring, how many were on the rest of the land around here. These were shot with rifles and got away to die.
I understand that most of us here are good shots and can get the job done. I just hate to advocate the wrong gun in the wrong hands. Since I do not personally know all of you or how much hunting experience each of you has, I prefer to recommend larger handguns. We never know who is reading the posts. I would hate to see some lurker go out and buy a small handgun for his first ever handgun hunt.
For example; when I first started archery hunting for deer, I let the dealer sell me a 45# bow. I was a good shot having shot bows since I was very young. I was beating everyone at shoots with that little Red Wing Hunter but it was not right for deer. Even with the best of hits, I was tracking deer for 200 yd's or more. I bought a 62# Wing bow after that first season and never had to track another deer shot with that bow. They all died in less then 40 yd's. Handguns work the same way and I would never tell a beginner to get a 357 because it will kill a deer. I firmly believe the .41 mag is the smallest that should be used. And even more important is the bullet that is used.
Yes, deer can be killed easily, but they also can be so tenacious of life that nothing will bring them down. I witnessed a small doe shot 11 times with 12 gauge slugs before she gave up. If it wasn't for snow she would have died somewhere and not been recovered. Trouble was that there was no meat worth saving on her.
I don't see how any of you can say to use a small handgun for hunting. I don't care how fast it shoots, speed does not a killer make. Think about who might be reading this site!

Yesterday, a friend shot a 7 pt at my place that was dragging his rt rear leg. He shot it with a bow and when we skinned it, we found a 20 ga slug had broken the rt hip. It entered the left side behind the ribs and went just under the spine and hit the rt hip. We think it was shot a week and a half ago during "youth day" and was running on 3 legs ever since.

Now, I have killed a lot of deer with a H&R Ultra in 20 ga with Lightfield sabots....never lost one. Was it unethical for a "youth" to shoot this deer with a 20ga and have him run off? Nah...I'm sure he did the best he could and I believe ethically, that's all we can ask.

Ethically, each of us need to make the decision to shoot or not shoot....mostly governed by our ability, not the gun we carry. If you can effectively kill the animal, then take the shot, otherwise...let em walk!! JMHO

I would use it. I would not make it my primary deer gun but I would use it if I wanted and it was legal.

The only handguns I have used on deer are 41 mag, 44 mag 454 casull and 9MM. The 9mm was a one shot double lung pass through with a 147 black talon at 20 yards. The deer ran 30 yards and fell dead.

WHOA Nelly!

"ETHICAL" is the way one hunts and the shots one passes up because they would NOT be effective with the chosen method of harvest and skill level of the shooter.

That is to say . . .

30-60 yard shot with a bow for the average (and slightly above) archer,

50-100 yard shot with the 357 Sig,

even a 25 yard shot with inaccurate gun OR SHOOTER.

IF the chosen caliber and firearm will perform adequately and the shooter will perform adequately then,

the deer (or anything else) will be harvested as well as the best loudenboomersupermagnum will do . . . very likely better.

the antonym to this is

"UNETHICAL" a definition by example is something I overheard while at the range, "Yeah with this 45-70 you can just hit them ANYWHERE and the deer is dead."

I agree the weapon of choice doesnot fall into the ethics the choice of wheater to shoot or not does.I would choose a 45 colt with 325 grain LBT style bullets for hunting(or 475,500,etc with heavy for caliber bullets) because I would have more than enough penetration for any shot angle.That being said the 357 Sig with proper bullets will kill deer very dead with a well placed shot in the lung,heart area,you just can not shoot the extreme angles,plus I prefer an exit hole as it makes tracking easier as well as a longer wound channells ads up to more tissue dammage. I have killed deer with a 45 acp very dead,but shot angles become crittical because of a lack of pentration as compard to the larger, heavier bullets of the big bore revolvers,I have also used the 357 mag with 160grain bullets,as wells as the 44 mag with 240 &250 grain on deer succesfuly and in MY EXPERIENCE the big 45's and larger leave bigger holes and put animals down faster,your experience may be different because no 2 animals or circumstances react the same,with that being said I have taken a large number of animals with handguns over the last 30 years and have gained my opinions as to my experience's as well as seing the results from my hunting partners.

TC, you are really stretching the distance for those weapons. I have been shooting archery all my life and I still limit shots on white tails to 25 yd's ( I have taken them to 45 yd's but I don't like shooting that far on deer.) or less and ANYTHING that starts with .357 in front of it will be limited to 50 yd's or less. I have no problem with shooting out to 100 yd's with the .44, .45 or larger.

TC, I can't give you an accurate count, but I have killed somewhere around 353 deer. Something around 222 were shot with bows. I have killed deer with every type gun and caliber you can think of, including handguns for rifle cartridges. These were soon sold as the results are not consistant and sometimes there were no blood trails so I had to search a grid to recover a deer.
I agree 100% that the ethics of a hunter comes into play with the decision to shoot or not. But from my experience, when a gun, bullet or caliber does not perform with perfect shots, it is not used by me again. This is as ethical as deciding the shot is wrong or the distance is too great for the weapon used. Deer deserve more then to be plinked at with sub standard guns.
They don't deserve to be shot at with guns so powerful that all the meat is ruined so the hunter can say that the deer dropped dead at the shot. Wasting meat is not ethical either. Besides, the average hunter that uses a cannon that he is afraid of will never make a good shot and that is as bad as using too small a gun. I bought my .475 BFR revolver at the end of summer and have over 2000 heavy loads through it. I can shoot it but I would NEVER give it to a beginner and tell him to go hunting with it. That is not ethical either.
The hunter has to shoot all year with the bow, handgun or rifle until he can do the job. If any of you are confident in the smaller guns and can hit where you aim, then you are good to go and I will not say you are wrong to do so. My concern is the average guy that leaves his guns in the corner until opening day. This is why I say to use an effective gun, not too small or too big. Then a marginal hit can still bring home the meat.

BFR,

DAMN....I thought I had killed a bunck of deer....I think I'm over 200...you're probably just twice as old as me!!

I teach hunter safety and firearms safety to women and kids...not to men, because they know it all. You made a lot of good points in those two posts. I'm just glad to see common sense and respect for the animal lives on and the ethical hunter will try to do the RIGHT thing!!

Thank you. I am 68.

You could kill a boar with an Ice Pick too.....But what are your odds on getting it to hold still long enough to put it in his ear?

Improve you odds go with something starting with "4".

If nothing else you owe it to the Deer to kill it....not wound it. Here in lies your ethics answer.

Good Luck on your hunt.

A bow is less effective than a rifle by your logic a bow would not be ethical. My take is if you use the bow under the same situation as rifle(ie long range 100 yards lets say) then the bow becomes an unethical chioce. As long as one uses his weapon of choice within the limits of the weapon,In my opion there is no ethics problem

interesting thread.. ethics card threw first round...


how about a 35 caliber rifle, doing the same loads? like a 35 win SL? fine deer rifle, in the hands of a skilled hunter...

357 sig, 40cal+p, 10mm.. provided YOU can hit your target a more than good enough for deer..

for what it's worth, in Texas, it's illegal to hunt deer with a rimfire 22 (and now 17).. but prefectly legal to take a 14 hornet, as it's centerfire.

25-20s have taken more than a couple head of game...

the henry RIM FIRE was sold as a big game load, and it was subsonic!! load on sunday, shoot all week...


I've taken hogs at 60 yards with a 10mm... bang, drop... and the 38/40 is EXACTLY the same ballistics, and it's definately a 100 yard rifle..

jeffe

The post title asks what can ethically be hunted with the .357 sig. To that, I would answer: most all small game. up to the size of Turkeys and Javelinas. It's plenty of gun, and will kill quickly and effectively. Or should, within the effective range and ability of the shooter.
Then, later in the post, Sabot says he'll consider its use on whitetail. The question I'd put to him is this: Is this the handgun you would prefer to have if that "deer-of-a-lifetime" stepped out? I hunt with a handgun at least 50% of the time - other times are with a bow or rifle. Whenever I hunt with any of them, I feel I am equipped to deal with that lifetime opportunity.
All I require is that the animal be within range, and present a proper shot. Sometimes it just doesn't happen. I try very hard to set up so I won't be tempted to strain any of my barrels making a too-far shot.
Ethics are what dictates whether or not to take the shot. Sometimes the shot is just too far for whatever I have in hand. Other times a proper shot opportunity isn't presented. I think ethics has more to do with when to take a shot, not what to take a shot with.
Choice of weapon, or caliber, is a personal thing. Use some common sense. Is it something you are very confident with? DO you have second thoughts? I think if you have any apprehension about your choice of weapon, you are violating your own personal standard of ethics. If you aren't completely confident in yourself and your choice of weapon, you need another weapon or more practice.

Bug, very well said and is the point I was trying to make. You said it better and shorter.
I once killed a deer with the Lone Eagle 7mm-08 pistol using the 139 gr Hornady. It dropped fairly fast with a shot behind the shoulder through both lungs. I shot a larger doe in the same place. I found lung tissue on a branch that came out the off side so I knew it went all the way through. I tracked her for a mile until her tracks blended in with a lot of other tracks on the trails. She had quit bleeding in 100 yd's, never stopped or layed down. This bullet should have worked because it is explosive in the .280 shooting shrapnel out of deer and making them bloodshot from head to tail. Just losing one deer to this gun and load made it unethical to use it again and destroyed my confidence in it. This gun was accurate and I hit targets to 500 meters with it. But a 25 yd shot on a deer did not work. I no longer own it. I do NOT have this problem with the big bore revolvers. One lost deer is one too many. If there is any doubt at all in a guns performance, it no longer goes into the woods with me.
I am calm and cool around deer. I am not the least bit recoil sensitive and can shoot anything and I can SHOOT. Anytime I see the effects of a gun and boolit or bullet when I open up a deer and am not happy with the results, even though the deer is dead, that gun is retired from hunting them. There are too many fine hunting calibers out ther to have to sit on stand and have doubts on what your gun will do.