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One of Us |
Carpetman, here you go, argue with the results of the poll as they stand at this point in time. Your little side issues are yours, not mine, none of this was intended to change anyone's mind. The only thing it actually points out is that even though many people kill deer annually with the various .22 CF cartridges, seemingly without any real problems, not everyone that uses these calibers firmly believes they are the be all, end all as far as deer rifles are concerned. See Below: The "debate" over the .223/.224 as a deer cartridge seems incapable of dying, so here is a really simple yes or no poll. If possible, and it isn't, but if possible try to keep votes and/or responses, limited to only people that have or do hunt deer with any of the various .223/.224 chamberings, Please. Results (80 votes counted so far): It has been established that a .223/.224 caliber rifle can kill deer. Now, how many of the folks that use or have used these calibers for deer hunting would purposely go after and shoot an actual trophy buck(book quality - 170 points or bigger) with a .223/.224 rifle? 34 (43%) Yes, I would with no reservations. 46 (57%) No, not on an actual trophy buck, book quality or not. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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One of Us |
Not shoot "AT" Deer, I would shoot Deer any time the shot was right. Sheesh! You Texans are a thick headed bunch and it takes a lot of explainin' but try to keep up will ya. lol.... | |||
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Oh I get it CHC--calling someone a pussy that doesnt shoot a .243/.257 R without hearing protection is not a side issue? Who brought that up I wonder? | |||
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Maybe if the OP used hearing protection, he would have heard the first time that nobody gives a fuck about his poll. I'll try to type a little louder.... You have a little agenda and like to sit on your all-knowing Tex-ass as if you're the next contributing editor to Field & Stream. They like bullshit like this. That's top notch stuff there. You hear about the poll that 90% of Americans favor more gun control? Must be some true shit there, spoken like a true libtard. Everythangs beeg in Texass, starting with the bullshit....... | |||
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And a .257 still sucks ass..... | |||
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Hey come on now you've crossed a line with that one! I shoot the shit out of a .257 and really enjoy it.! | |||
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One thing I noticed here is the biggest haters of the .223 are trolling around on the small bore forum? What for? If you can't stand .223's then stay out of the small bore discussion and by all means don't create polls and threads to try to further your crusade, yeah you Smokin Joe, Savage 99 and Crazy, let it be.... | |||
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| One of Us |
I went through a growth spurt after my first year and handled the 243 very well the following year. I never seriously started used a 22-250 for deer until 2000 or so. Before that it was a 270 or 338WM, as that was the only rifles I owned after I traded the 243 for 270. I used to kid my friend about using his 22-250 all time, and he would ask me why I needed to use a cannon, meaning my 270. All in good fun of course. I will take any shot with a 22-50 that I would take with any of my rifles. A good shot presentation is just that, good. I have consciously tried to catch the 53gr TSX, but have been unsuccessful. I can remember three quartering on shots. Broke the leg on each shot with various exits from behind the ribs to exiting the the front part of the hindquarter. I even had a severe quartering to presention where the bullet entered in front of the leg and exited the hindquarter. The only bullet fragment I have recovered were two petals that were found in the neck meat when my son shot through the vertebrae of an adult whitetail doe immediately in front of the shoulders. We have shot animals from 40-450 yards. All sorts of shot presentations. It simply works for me, my friend, my sons, and his kids. That is why I call BS when I see it. | |||
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A world of difference in your two posts, there, guy. FWIW, shooting at a deer 400 yards away with a 55-grain bullet is in my eyes, imbecilic, ill advised, and shows a lack of maturity. It also shows a lack of respect for the targeted animal. In short, you don't care if you wound or not. You just want the shot. Some of us are more mature than that... And it is well known that CO folks hate Texans but love the money we leave in CO. Or USED to leave in CO before the dumb fugs you idiots put into office fouled it up for everyone... | |||
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Doubless, I have to ask. Just how many deer have killed/witnessed being killed with a 223/224? | |||
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Bullshit too.... So you KNEW it was 400 yards when you pulled the trigger, but had to pace it off (3 times no less) to make sure it was 400 yards? WTF? If you'd said you pulled that shit off after confirming distance with a LRF and twisting a dial, maybe. But guessing at 400? Yeah right. Odds of shooting something at exactly X yards is about as good as CHC using a 223 for a "trophy" | |||
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You know that if you shoot more than one weekend before hunting season and actually have some trigger time under your belt at various ranges that when a 400 yard shot presents itself and you've practiced at that range and recognize it as a 400 yard shot have a still unaware animal and a dead rest that shot is not that difficult. I completely understand your inability to make or comprehend that shot due to your lack of shooting experience. To the ill informed and un--initiated it must seem like a magic trick. | |||
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| One of Us |
Anyone that is a member can start a poll anywhere they feel it will fit into. The poll, as I have stated more than once is simply to find out the percent of people that voluntarily choose to use something larger on bigger/trophy sized bucks than their apparently normal choice of firearm, one of the various .22 CF's. For those few very vocal individuals that are taking it personally, that is your problem. I could see your combined self righteous indignation if the poll questioned the use of the .22 CF's on Deer PERIOD. However, that is NOT what is being asked. I really think I have had about as much experience as any of you that seem to be taking this so personal. Some of you read so much crap into stuff, instead of just reading what is written. Other than the one deer I hit and lost with a .22 Hornet, and that happened after dropping one in its tracks with the same load, I have not been involved in any capacity where a deer shot with one of the larger .22 CF's was lost. As I have repeatedly stated, I just PERSONALLY do not view the .22 CF's as adequate deer guns. I have that right, just as you have the right to believe they are the best thing going. I personally don't like the .243/.270/.308 or .30-06. Yet thousands of people all over the globe kill thousands of animals annually with those rounds. Regardless of the effectiveness of those cartridges, regardless the fact that the .22 CF's do kill deer, the poll is about what percentage of hunters using the .22 CF's, Opt Out For Something Larger If A Trophy Deer, To Them, Is Or Could Become Part Of The Equation. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Interesting statement. I am trying to be practical about this whole 223/224 thing. They work, nothing more, nothing less. I do not know if they are the best thing going or not. They simply kill deer. If it is someone's preference to use something else, that is fine. Just do not talk smack. I have personal preferences, not a huge fan of 243's, 7mm mags, or anything 35 caliber. But it is a personal preference, my opinion. You will never see me bad mouth them. Because to do so is inflammatory and counter-productive. To do it repeatedly.....????? ummmmmmmmm You are what you repeatedly do. | |||
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Don't like a 30-06??? Please tell us that was a typo--you meant 25-06. Otherwise you lost ALL your vast credibility. | |||
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Mr Snellstrom, first let me say that I sincerely tried to get a representation among the members here as to where they would limit using a 223 hunting big game. SR4759 saw that as he was the only one that seemed to get it. I wasn't talking about the 22-250 or 220 Swift to name a few other .224 calibers. Now a little off track here but I'm old enough to remember when there were no computers in just about every household. I believe at that time the word "troll" wasn't in wide use. I resent being called that for I am far from that type of person. I'll bet you're a younger person. Now as to shooting a deer at 400 yards. Let's take a 55 grain .224 bullet at 3800 fps. At 400 yards it has around 591 foot pounds of energy left. Hardly a sporting amount to cleanly harvest a deer. Many stated they have killed deer with a 22 LR. If they done so they did it illegally. Last, but not least, in your avatar did you harvest that nice looking animal with a .224 caliber cartridge? If not why not? Please keep it civil we're just having a discussion to see what hunters real opinions are using this caliber for hunting big game. | |||
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You really are odd aren't you. I have stated several times on AR in various discussions that I PERSONALLY DO NOT LIKE THE .30-06!!!!! Do I recommend the .30-06/.308/.270 to other people, yes I do. WHY, simply because they are proven rounds that have killed and still do kill game animals and do a good job of it, I Do Not Have To Like Them If I Don't Want To. As far as people on this or any other site judging mine or anyone else's "Credibility" simple because of their personal opinion on a subject, is as blatantly ludicrous as is possible on this planet. The point remains, and you cannot nor have not disproved that users of the various .22 CF's openly admit to preferring something larger if a trophy buck is part of the equation. You keep changing the subject and your efforts are pointless. If you or anyone else is happy with the results you are getting, GOOD FOR YOU or anyone else that feels the way you do. I would just like you to drop the hyperbole and attempt to explain why the majority of respondents to the poll opt out for a larger caliber. Why don't you focus on that, instead of taking off on tangents that have nothing to do with the poll. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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If he humped up and never took a step, then why the second shot?? | |||
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CHC, The problem is you are constantly trying to run down the 223/224. You are what you repeatedly do. It is your personal opinion on 223/224? Then why don't you post that and leave it lie? Mine and others opinions are based on and backed by actual experience. You are the one that changes the subject, and twists stuff around. So approx 60% of 223/224 would use something else for trophy deer? So what? Your point is exactly what? Besides  and  and hoisting the  | |||
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| One of Us |
I have actually no idea how many deer have witnessed being shot with a .223 or .224. Now: if you mean how many deer I have seen shot with a .223 or .224, I will tell you: two. And that is two too many. As I have repeatedly posted in similar threads, two years in a row I helped a buddy of mine find does that he had shot with his H&K .223 and 60-grain Nosler Partitions. In both cases, the animals were recovered, and both had direct "boiler room" injuries. The problem was that both deer ran, and after about 20 yards there was little to no blood. We spent well over two hours tracking the second one, as I remember, and found her over 600 yards from where she was shot. One of us had to stand at the last blood spot (sometimes no bigger than the head of a pin) and the other move forward, looking for the next drop, that would sometimes be 20-30' away. When we found the second doe, I told Bryan if he shot another deer with a .223 I was going to wrap that H&K barrel around his neck. And I meant it. But don't worry with me. From other posts, you have far more to worry about than to process what I have repeatedly said, now here as well as in other threads. I will say this: if you repeatedly take 400-yard shots at any animal other than a varmint with a 22-caliber rifle, I don't want to be in the woods with you, or even around you. I see you as irresponsible and one having no respect for the animal. And that is sad. Just my honest opinion. There is way too much that can happen over that 400 yards, and none of it is good. | |||
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One of Us |
I am a fan of bigger is better but I have seen enough deer taken with small caliber guns to know that there are people who can cleanly kill a deer at the ranges they shoot at without a problem. I have seen many more "poor" shots taken at deer with 30 calibers than I have with the 22 caliber guns. The hunters that use the small caliber guns seem to be more conscious of how important shot placement is than "most" of the medium bore shooters. I have never seen a guy with a .223 shoot an 8 inch group at 100 yards and say that it was "minute of deer" but I have heard that quite a bit from guys using 7mm and 30 caliber magnums. Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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| One of Us |
smoking J, I had been thinking you were a dick, but that was a very civil post above, so here goes. I have spent my whole life living off the land. I am not old so to speak ... but certainly not young. Divorced, so my house could be a complete man-cave. I have reloading presses and gun/hunting books on the shelves in my livingroom. But there is not a single set of horns or trophies in the place. There is a pile of horns, deer, moose, caribou etc hanging from rafters in the garage and equipment shed. Sometimes someone wants a set to make something with, or kids would like some for their room and take them. I do take photos. My biggest deer was simply shot when it came out to feed under a wild apple tree. My favorite deer was shot with an old low wall win in 38-40 while it was still in it's bed I crpt up on through the dry leaves in my socks. I have shot nuisence moose with a 22 mag, and deer with a .378 wthby. I would rather HUNT any animal then just shoot one. I have successfully hunted other states without guides, including alaska. Hunted Australia and africa on farms without guides, and yes it was legal, at the time anyway. A farmers grandson showed me his photo album of steinbok to cow eland all shot with a .223. All this boils down to what would I shoot with a .223? I dont care about shooting bears,so wouldn't shoot griz or browns anyway, have shot and will have to shoot more blackbear as they are hard on crops. So I would say anything in the US and most things elsewhere. But first and foremost I consider myself a hunter, so what I use is secondary. I hunt to the capability of what I choose to use that day. I feel more folks should put time in the woods then in the gunshops or internet. | |||
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| One of Us |
Well thank you sir. What you wrote is the kind of stuff I wanted to hear. I too never mount any animals that I have successfully hunted. I also have no desire to hunt the big bears anymore. | |||
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| One of Us |
I do not use any of the .22 CF's for anything anymore. The poll has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion of the .22CF's as a deer round. It has to do with the fact that users of the various .22 CF's rounds openly admit that they choose to hunt potential trophy deer with something larger. One responder talks about killing an animal at an extended range with a .22 CF, but according to established regulations, he did not make that shot in the state where he lives, because .22 CF's rifles are not legal for deer or antelope in that state. I don't use any of the various .22 CF's for hunting any more. Why would I want to run those calibers down? If you or someone else chooses to use any of those cartridges for hunting deer, that is YOUR business. PLEASE explain to me why a LARGER percentage of folks that use those cartridges prefer to use something larger if a trophy buck might be encountered. Can you answer that, I seriously doubt it. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I can admit to killing two deer with my Father's .225 Win. It was in my youth, but both deer died an honorable death. In retrospect it wasn't the best option that I had available but it was the rifle I was most competent with. Nowaday's I have a more ample battery to choose from and even though my Dad's .225 Win is still one of the rifles I shoot best, I'll pick up my .308, 7.5X55, 12 Guage, or 44 Mag Anaconda before hunting deer with the .225 Win. **************************The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. | |||
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Sorry for the typo, and thanks for recounting your experiences. I find the 600 yard tracking job fascinating and it brings up more questions than answers. I really do appreciate your concern for my processing, but I am fine, Thank You.
Bigger diameter kills better, higher velocity kills farther and shot placement trumps. All simple physics.  | |||
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| One of Us |
Out of all the above, the only one that matters is shot placement and it does not matter the caliber. You really need to get a grasp on reality Dude. Shot placement, regardless of speed or diameter is the most important aspect of hunting. You and a couple of others keep bringing up pure bull shit because nothing has been said about a .22 CF NOT being able to kill deer, people, even people that use such guns are merely saying that it might not be the best choice under all conditions. Wake up and get a grasp on reality. Despite what some people think, there are states that limit rifles for Big Game at .24 caliber or larger, argue with them. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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So what part of "shot placement trumps" did you not understand? Seems like you repeated what I said?
So you agree with me, only to say I need to get a grasp on reality?  I am throwing out BS? x2You sir, are the king of BS. Shall we start a poll on that? | |||
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| One of Us |
You pompous bastards are truly incredible! Now that you've attacked, rundown and name called anyone with any real experience on the subject you proceed to argue amongst yourselves! You guys make great internet police, somehow you are all experts on topics you have no experience in but you know whats best for us all so you run it down because it is not of your belief. You guys are probably the same shitheads that drive in the fast lane because whatever speed you are going is fast enough for everyone. What a bunch you are. Be proud of yourselves mission accomplished! | |||
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Pot, meet kettle! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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No, for whatever your reason, YOU were the one that threw in the about bullet diameter and velocity.I only agree with you on shot placement. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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How's this. Shot placement relegates all other discussions to secondary importance. | |||
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| One of Us |
If you shoot more than one weekend before hunting season you would be able to shoot something larger than a .223 without making excuses about muzzle blast, recoil and shot placement.
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If you hunt more than one weekend a season you would realize that it is not that tough to kill a deer. | |||
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Your point is WHAT??????????? The poll has nothing to do with shot placement! One More Time!!!!!!!!!!! The poll has to do with whether a person that normally uses a .22 CF for hunting deer, will or will not opt for something a little more powerful under certain circumstances. With 84 votes being cast, the totals read: 36 = (43%) Would not opt for a larger caliber. 48 = (57%) Would go to a larger caliber. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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If you shoot your rifle more than one week end before hunting season you would be able to manage something more substaintial than a .22 centerfire. You have already admitted to being whipped by a .243. | |||
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When I was 12! CHC, You and I just have to agree to disagree. | |||
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I have been trying to get you to do that for about 2 pages now. You say you have experienced what you claim, I can only assume that you are telling the truth about your hunting experiences. That is all I am doing, simply working on what I have experienced personally. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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one of us |
I've never had a problem taking deer with a .223. I've never had any tracking issues using the round, nor have I ever noticed it taking any longer for a deer to expire after being shoot with a .223 as opposed to other more common "deer cartridges." That said, if I was going on a paid hunt for a trophy animal I know I wouldn't take a .223. I can and have used the cartridge with great success on deer but I limit my range to 200 yds and under with the round and pass on anything other than a perfect broadside or front area chest shot. I wouldn't want to be limited by those factors on a paid hunt. While I would still wait for the right shot the distance is a little limiting. Also, there is a big list of other cartridges I wouldn't take. A great example would be a .30-30. A fine deer cartridge but a limiting one. There are many more. My hunting season is long where I live and I'm fortunate enough to get to hunt on property that's only 20 miles from the house. The limit is 7 deer a year and I limit out every year. I use a .223 a lot and sometimes I have to pass on a harvest simply because the shot just didn't present itself. It's no big deal in a situation like that to pass. I can always go back tomorrow and it kind of adds to the fun which is the biggest reason I hunt. Some of you guy's seem to be taking the longway around the barn but carry on, I'm off the soapbox. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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