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one of us |
Assuming in a state where legal to use 22 centerfire sure. A Partition, Scirocco, TSX, would do fine. | |||
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| One of Us |
The OP has used too broad a brush. A 22 Hornet witha 45 gr bullet designed for varmints is one thing. A 220 Weatherby Rocket with a 70 gr TSX in quite another. The first would blow up on the hide of a mature buck, The second would break at least one shoulder, probably both and kill him very dead very fast. | |||
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| One of Us |
As would any light for caliber, frangible bullet in most any classic deer cartridge/caliber. | |||
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| One of Us |
Agree, while it is the correct bullet in a Hornet for small varmints, but the 70 gr TSX would not work in the Hornet either. There are twenty twos and there are twenty twos. A 9mm Luger and a 9.3x62 are both 9mm caliber ... hardly interchangeable. Caliber is important, but velocity and bullet construction also mean a great deal Sorry I didn't make my point more clear. | |||
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| One of Us |
How can you say that when the one clearly says it's 9.3. That's larger then a 9mm. The bore and groove on a 9.3x62 is much larger then a 9mm. | |||
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| One of Us |
Has anyone actually experienced this phenomenon? | |||
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| One of Us |
Okay, you boys have fun with this. Sorry about 9.3, should have said 9x57. The facts do not change. As for blowup, yes, have seen a Antelope take a shoulder hit at 200 yards with a 90 gr Sierra .277 HP, a varmint bullet. Hit the bone, exploded and blew about a 4" diameter dish that did not put the animal down. He was killed at 300 yards by a 130 gr TSX put in behind the last rib going away and ranged forward, breaking opposite shoulder from the 270 hit and exiting. Rifle that killed him was a 60 year old 300 Savage 99 with a 4X scope. Had the 270 been loaded with a plain old cup and core 130 gr Sierra, the first shot would have done the job. | |||
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| One of Us |
The 9x57 shoots a bullet that is actually .358 diameter...basically .35 caliber. The 9mm Luger bullet is .354, that's .004 inch smaller. Don't forget that a 22 is a 22 because the 22 rimfire, 22 centerfires with diameter of .224, and the 22 Savage Hi Power are three different diameter 22 bullets. I'm just yanking your chain. | |||
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| One of Us |
Has anyone experience blow up of a bullet on the hide? YES, one of the world's foremost expert and legend in his mind, Kablowey, has experienced it on his keyboard numerous times. He bases this on the very technical and scientific fact that the Winchester bullet has a gopher depicted on the box. For years I posted that I used Winchester bulk packed bullets. I was partially incorrect. My latest box of .22 was Remington. My box of .243 was Winchester. It could be that my last box of .22 was Remington and earlier boxes were Winchester--I would readily interchange the two as the bullets are very similar--I don't notice a difference in bullet performance between my .243 and the various .22 centerfires. Kablowey calls me a liar on this. I have recovered only two of the .22 bullets. Both were just under the skin on the offside and each weighed 40 grains which is 72.7% of the original 55 grain weight. Kabluey says because a gopher is pictured on the box, that the bullet would fragment on the skin and a base as I described would not exist. I did shoot a spike with my .243 using cast bullets and not a drop of blood was found and the deer ran off as if not hit. Can't say what happened, but I don't believe a miss. | |||
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One of Us |
I haven't seen "varmint type" bullets blow up on the hide of any deer that I've shot with a .223, a 22-250, and a .243 all using Nosler Blastic Tips in the 40g, 50g, and 55g format respectively. After many many deer taken with these loads I have never seen a blowup, not found the deer, nor had to go very far to find it. I'm pushing my loads at 3975fps, 3850fps, and 4050fps respectively and that is part of the formula for clean one shot kills at longer distances. One of the former posters on these boards did some penetration testing on this bullet as the velocity drops down to the 2200-2500fps range and the results were impressive amounts of penetration. Most of my deer kills have been great penetration with some pass throughs with most kills not existing. Just dog gone impressive kills with rifles that are shot a lot and are very very accurate. Lots of longer distance shooting with tailored reloads. Simple | |||
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| One of Us |
If the .223 is such a good deer cartridge why wasn't it developed waaaaaay back ahead of such cartridges as the 30-30, 35 Rem, 303 Savage, 32 Special, 300 Savage, 38-55, 250 Savage, etc. ?? | |||
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| One of Us |
Eeh....cause bullets were shit back then? | |||
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one of us |
First and foremost because the thinking of the day was still heavily influenced by the black powder cartridges they superceded. Even so, you managed this time to forget the 22 Savage High Power which was developed as a deer cartridge in 1912. Although you did mention it earlier. Still sold as such in parts of Europe as the 5.56 x 52R "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| One of Us |
It was even used to hunt lion at least once. | |||
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| One of Us |
Most 9x57 I've slugged were .355, and oddly enough, 9mm handguns that are suppose to be .355, I've slugged @ .357 OK back to the BS at hand.  | |||
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| One of Us |
If you look up SAAMI specs on the 9mm, 38 Special, 38 Super, and 357 Magnum you'll see the groove diameter specified around .354 or so. Most the Colt revolvers I miked for groove diameter, and the semi auto's for them in 9mm and 38 Super indeed had very tight grooves at wround .354. | |||
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| One of Us |
So basically one 22 out of a long line of other larger calibers. The 22 Savage Hi Power is only like .015 inch or so smaller then the .243...not your typical 22. I forget the ph hunter that shot 13 consecutive lions in a row with a Model 94 Winchester in 30-30. Guess that makes it a lion cartridge huh? | |||
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| one of us |
And only .004 larger than normal 22 centerfire. The big difference was bullet weight. The High Power was using heavy for caliber 70 gr bullets when 45 grains or less was the norm. If they had better jacket designs back then it would have had far less bad press. But even with that, most of the bad press was from the foolish going after big dangerous game, not deer. If a 30-30 is all you got, then yes it is a lion rifle. I'm not a lion hunter by any means but if I could hit a charging lion in the head every time, I would be happy with a 170 gr bullet at 30-30 speeds. If you miss, it suddenly doesn't matter so much what the caliber within reasonable limits. FWIW we can add the 22 Newton and 22 Swift to list too (1912 and 1935 respectively). "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| One of Us |
Smokin Joe--If the .223 is such a good deer cartridge why wasn't it developed a waaay back? Why was it thought the world was flat for so long? Waaay back using lead bullets, as has been discussed, a larger cal was needed. | |||
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| One of Us |
Ray talking waaaay back in jacketed days and smokeless powder not blackpowder and lead. You're wrong there. Your world was flat analogy is wrong too because until proven wrong nobody dared sail past the horizone; whereas with rifle it was long known (with jacketed and smokeless powder) what worked for deer....and it wasn't no "22". | |||
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| One of Us |
You have any idea in how many leaps and seconds that a lion can cover 100 yards? What you said is like if all you have is a stick and your intentions are destroying hornet nests...you best not be hunting the nest at all. If a lion is going to attack and all you have is your hands you fight with those. Not a good analogy. | |||
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| One of Us |
I know what saami specs say, thats why I was surprised when I slugged several hi-powers, a couple S&W's and Berretas and found them to be .357. If you got .355 in colts, fine, not what all 9mm's are though. Back to the BS. | |||
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| One of Us |
Just imagine if they had the internet waaaaaay back then: Rothschild: "Can you use a stick to kill a deer" Conrad: "No, you need a musket you limey bastard" Rothschild: "Well, them natives do" Conrad: "Sticks just bounce off, I've seen it" Old Injun: "Me kill em many deer with stick, never bounce off" Conrad: "You're full of peyote" Old Injun: "Me killem with rock too, Paleface" Rothschild: "Whats the best stick for deer, Old Injun?" Old Injun: "Me likem sharp" Rothschild: "I thinking I want to try some rocks this year too, big rocks or little rocks?" Old Injun: "Me like big rock, hit hard. Little rock pencil through" Rothchild: "Whats a pencil?" Epic skullfuck................ | |||
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| One of Us |
 Now thats some funny shit. | |||
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| One of Us |
Of course they are not all that. Different manufacturing tolerances through out the many factories that produce them. Not only in 9mm but all other calibers too....but there are specifications on a majority of cartridges and why they aren't adhered to I don't know. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have experienced this happen two times. Or to be more correct, I have been tracking wounded animals two times with a tracking dog because the hunter didn't use the right bullet for the situation. One was a Roe deer buck that was hit on the scapula with a 22-250 with a bullet that must have been intended for varminting. Nothing reached the vitals, but I and my dog managed to find the buck and I killed it. The second was a bull Moose also hit on the lower part of the scapula by a 375 H&H. The same happened there. Nothing reached the vitals, but I and my dog found him too and put him down. That hunter learned that any big bullet going fast is not always enough. High speed demands tough bullets when hitting bone. Before this happened he was sure that a 375 H&H always would result in DRT with Moose and smaller, no matter what... | |||
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| one of us |
That's a nonsensical reply to the point I made which is that a 170 grain 30-30 bullet will penetrate the skull of a lion and therefore kill it. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| One of Us |
That makes my 9mm's more powerfull right, yours are only .354 and mine are .357!  | |||
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| One of Us |
I have taken several deer with a 22-250 and 220 swift. These were taken at night on a kill permit for crop damage control.All at 100 yds or less,antlerless deer only. I will NEVER have to worry about the 223 deal because I will NEVER have one in my hands during rifle season. | |||
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One of Us |
These type threads seem to ignore two vital bits of information - that being the size/weight of the deer being hunted, in the area being hunted, and the typical the deer will be hunted. If the target game is in the 90#-120# range and a long shot is 100 yards why not use a .223/.224 with a proper hunting bullet? And yes I agree, the preceding scenario is totally different from that of the target game being in the 180#-220# range and a long shot being 300-400 yards... Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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| One of Us |
I live in western SD where our deer can easily get to 250lbs live weight. I promise you the mule deer my friend took last fall was easily 250 if not pushing 275#. Oh yeah, he likes his 22-250 over his 30-06 because it shoots so flat. | |||
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One of Us |
Sorry, but the original post/poll, clearly delineates the parameters. Would or would not a person that regularly uses ANY of the .223/.224 cartridges for shooting deer, use that same gun when the possibility/probability of getting a shot at an actual TROPHY Quality animal. As has been evident by the ACTUAL VOTES, NOT the comments/responses, the MAJORITY, prefer to use something LARGER if an actual trophy animal is part of the equation. No one, least of all me, is saying that the various .223/.224 chamberings, cannot/will not kill deer with ACCURATE bullet placement. Thousands of deer annually are killed by folks using one of the various .223/.224 cartridges, as far as I can see that is not in dispute. I see people questioning the choice of such cartridges for hunting deer. I see various states that prohibit the use or such cartridges for hunting deer. The point however, is that people that regularly use these cartridges for killing deer, PREFER to use something larger if an actual trophy animal is a possibility. This is not rocket science. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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| One of Us |
Then let me answer it in a 'not rocket science' manner. I live in Southern California. A 150# deer Southern California Coastal Black-tailed Deer (Columbia Black-tailed Deer species) is a TROPHY Book Quality animal and I doubt that a .223/.224 caliber rifle with a quality hunting bullet wouldn't kill that size deer as dead as any larger caliber. Here’s an excerpt from the SCI Record Book for you - Columbia Black-tailed Deer DESCRIPTION: A mature black-tail buck from Washington or Oregon will stand 38-40 inches (97-102 cm) at the shoulder and weigh 150-200 pounds (68-90 kg), sometimes even more. Bucks from Vancouver Island are lighter, weighing 110-160 pounds (50-73 kg), and those from chaparral areas of California are lighter yet at 100-145 pounds (45-66 kg). Females are considerably smaller than males. So in even simpler terms, Yes I would… Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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| One of Us |
The point still remains, what you would or would not do, is not the issue. The issue is that a larger percentage of people that regularly use .223's/.224's for shooting deer, PREFER to use a larger caliber gun if encountering an actual trophy sized buck is encountered. End of story. This has nothing what so ever to do with whether a .223/.224 can or cannot kill a deer. It has to do with the concept that people that use .223/.224 rifles on a regular basis for hunting deer, openly admit that such guns are NOT their first choice if an actual trophy animal might be encountered. If so many folks are so adamant and impressed with the .223's/.224's as a deer gun, then why do so many admit that they are evidently not comfortable if a trophy animal is involved in the equation. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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| One of Us |
'cause they think more ass in the case helps with misplaced shots? I'm a trophy doe hunter, so I'm overgunned anyway. | |||
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| One of Us |
Maybe the question should be for those that are advocates of using the .223 for deer hunting at what point, that is, size/weight and species of animal that they WOULD NOT use a .223. Please don't answer "well if it was the only rifle I had". | |||
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| One of Us |
Perhaps that would have been a better question. I have met very few hunters that one of the .223's/.224's, is the ONLY rifle they own. To the folks that own these caliber rifles, the poll is not meant as an indictment concerning you/your choice of caliber or of the guns themselves. It is merely intended to find out, as was pointed out in the above quote, where the use of those calibers comes into question or simply left in the case/cabinet/safe? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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| One of Us |
CHC, The real issue is the obvious fact that you do not believe that 223/224 should be used on deer. You post your questions to further your personal agenda. The answer is simply shot placement! Some people like to have the most visual, damaging, crumpling, ego testosterone driven domination of the beasts. For others it may be an insecurity/confidence/lack of experience, compensation. A trophy shot in the vitals with (insert caliber), is going to die that same as a 223/224 caliber. | |||
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| One of Us |
..fictitious scenario: Amateur dangerous big game hunter wounds a Cap Buffalo. You are selected to go into the tall grass and dispatch him with a .223. Are you going to go? Can you place that shot precisely in the "vital" spot? There are limits to calibers. May be the reason only certain large calibers are legal for big dangerous game hunting in Africa. Yes I know this is different then shooting deer in the states but you people who firmly believe that shot placement with a smaller caliber will get the job done...IT WILL NOT on certain animals, had pushed me to this. Thus the little story above. | |||
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| One of Us |
This started out as trophy deer, now we are into wounded capes. Would you use a .223 as an anti tank gun? Probably not, so it's no good on deer. | |||
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