well Ray and others, who would it take in the world to convince you all the 223 isn't a very good caliber for deer hunting...the Pope? Perhaps Jesus Christ? How about we dig up Jack O'Conner and bring him back to life and ask him? There has to be a size, a weight, a species that the 223 becomes very very inefficient.

The deciding factor for what cartridge is needed is the knowledge and ability of the shooter to place whatever bullet he uses from whatever cartridge he uses into a place that will result in the rapid death and recovery of the animal being hunted.
My brother and I discuss this topic all the time and we are both right, although we have very differing views. He likes light bullets at near 2800 fps and I prefer medium to heavy bullets at the same velocity. He chooses to limit his shots to the head and neck area to use CNS damage to kill and does very well. I like to keep my options open even though we can both produce sub-MOA groups. I prefer a shot to the vitals. Our styles of hunting reflect our choice of caliber and bulet type. I always warn him that it is unlikey that his small bullets would stop a bear if needed he just tells me that he can outrun me so I will have to shoot the bear.
Bullet type and placement in the correct location to kill the animal is of greater importance than the caliber or bullet weight. I would rather shoot a rabbit with my 3006 than a deer with a 223 but my brother would use the 223 on both and kill each without a problem.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
well Ray and others, who would it take in the world to convince you all the 223 isn't a very good caliber for deer hunting...the Pope? Perhaps Jesus Christ? How about we dig up Jack O'Conner and bring him back to life and ask him? There has to be a size, a weight, a species that the 223 becomes very very inefficient.

I would have thought by now you'd have relized that no one is swayed by internet chatter. Those who agree with you always will and likewise, those that don't won't.

quote:

Originally posted by PaulS:
The deciding factor for what cartridge is needed is the knowledge and ability of the shooter to place whatever bullet he uses from whatever cartridge he uses into a place that will result in the rapid death and recovery of the animal being hunted.
My brother and I discuss this topic all the time and we are both right, although we have very differing views. He likes light bullets at near 2800 fps and I prefer medium to heavy bullets at the same velocity. He chooses to limit his shots to the head and neck area to use CNS damage to kill and does very well. I like to keep my options open even though we can both produce sub-MOA groups. I prefer a shot to the vitals. Our styles of hunting reflect our choice of caliber and bulet type. I always warn him that it is unlikey that his small bullets would stop a bear if needed he just tells me that he can outrun me so I will have to shoot the bear.
Bullet type and placement in the correct location to kill the animal is of greater importance than the caliber or bullet weight. I would rather shoot a rabbit with my 3006 than a deer with a 223 but my brother would use the 223 on both and kill each without a problem.

Paul,

Does that apply for progressively larger deer, larger animals different species, up through larger animals to eventually dangerous game animals? I think not. I guess one could chain up a grizzly bear and a person could take his best shot/shots at it and eventually kill it, but it does not make a 223 THE caliber for bear. We all know that poachers have taken deer with 22 short rimfire, but it doesn't make it a deer caliber.

quote:

There has to be a size, a weight, a species that the 223 becomes very very inefficient.

Many people have tried to define that for decades with all kinds of formulas. But as technology has advanced, so have capabilities.

It still comes down to CHC having an axe to grind. Most people do not have the experience to say they would hunt trophy deer with a 223/224. They simply regurgitate and form an opinion from what they have heard, not from what they have actually seen or experienced.

quote:

It still comes down to CHC having an axe to grind.

I do not have an axe to grind, that is where you do not know what you are talking about. At no point have I said that a .223/.224 will not/has not or does not kill deer. Prove that I have stated anything different than that. You can't, because I haven't. I have been involved in the killing of just a few deer where those calibers were involved.

In the hands of a competent/confident shooter, these guns work just fine. For the umpteenth time, the poll concerns the concept that even competent/confident users of these guns, will and do place limitations on the size of animals they will shoot at.

SDH, you seem to be the one with an axe of some kind to grind. The poll keeps clearly showing that the a majority of the folks using these calibers, place limitations on themselves concerning what they will or will not use these guns on. I do not really care what a person uses if they are competent/confident with it, unless it is on one of our guided hunts, and then, just like a few states, we limit our hunters to using .243 or larger.

If you are willing to use a .223/.224 on an elephant, that is your business. But from the poll, it seems like not all .223/.224 users share that attitude.

Crazyhorse---You have written many times people draw the line on using a .223/.224 for trophy animals. You have stated that enough that it is obviously your firm belief and I suspect you went into this poll believing that and looking for the poll to go that way. Look at some of the comments. I wouldn't use it--I'd feel more comfortable with my 22-250. Hmmm??? How many voted that have NO experience? Tiggergate nailed it that internet chatter will change nobody's mind.

Maybe you guys could just get together and compare your dicks in person.

quote:

Originally posted by 16Bore:
Maybe you guys could just get together and compare your dicks in person.

Way to class it up. Maybe you could post more like this on a Zombie board or maybe tacticool guns or something.

carpetman1, I am not trying to change anyone's mind on anything. If you have no problem using a .223/.224 on any deer you see, that is your thing.

To say or act like, that people that voted that they would not use those calibers if hunting for an actual trophy deer, have no actual experience using such rifles, demonstrates nothing more than arrogance and an inability to accept facts.

Please prove that the folks that voted that they would use something larger if after a trophy animal, do not have any experience and are not being totally honest, you cannot.

You and KB are the ones that have been beating the issue about whether the .223/.224 should even be used for deer to death.

At least I agree that those rounds can/do and will kill deer. However, this is NOT the only forum I participate on, and on others sites, I have seen the same statement, that for does/culls people use their .223/.224 rifles, but when going into a situation where a buck of almost ANY size, could be encountered, they prefer to use something larger.

If you prefer to stick with the .223/.224 that is your prerogative and I have no problem with it. It is yours or anyone else's choice.

If you honestly believe that the folks that voted that they would use something bigger if a trophy buck was a possibility, were/are lying with their votes, again that is your prerogative.

If you honestly believe that my starting the poll and asking the question I asked influenced the answer of ANYONE on this, you have a real problem with reality.

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:

quote:

Originally posted by 16Bore:
Maybe you guys could just get together and compare your dicks in person.

Way to class it up. Maybe you could post more like this on a Zombie board or maybe tacticool guns or something.

....or maybe you could read the entire thread next time.

quote:

The "debate" over the .223/.224 as a deer cartridge seems incapable of dying,

Then why bring it up again? So what hypothesis were trying to prove or disprove with your poll? Curious, stiring the pot, please enlighten me.

Why don't you take another poll.

Of you people that have used 223/224 calibers for deer. Which would rather have?
1. A 223/224 bullet through the vitals
2. (insert caliber) not through the vitals

My hypothesis is #1 would win in a landslide.

quote:

unless it is on one of our guided hunts, and then, just like a few states, we limit our hunters to using .243 or larger.

You ARE against it, as you do not allow it on your hunts.

quote:

If you are willing to use a .223/.224 on an elephant, that is your business. But from the poll, it seems like not all .223/.224 users share that attitude.

What in Sam Hill's name does elephant got to do with it? The original question was about DEER! See below

[QUOTE]Now, how many of the folks that use or have used these calibers for deer hunting would purposely go after and shoot an actual trophy buck(book quality - 170 points or bigger) with a .223/.224 rifle?
[/QUOTE


So, some guy is out hunting with a 223/224. A trophy buck steps out and he is not going to shoot it because of his rifle? Really? 60% would rather have something else, but I bet the deer would go to the taxidermist just the same. The steaks would get eaten, the bragging would commence, and the memories would still be there.

quote:

Curious, stiring the pot, please enlighten me.

Simply pointing out, that while some but not ALL .223/.224 users/defenders will kill a trophy animal with those calibers, some openly state that they prefer something larger when dealing with a trophy animal.

Am I against the use of .223's/.224's for deer or whatever someone wants to use for their personal hunting, depending on the situation that is either a yes or no answer.

If the hunter is on their own property, I could care less. If I am guiding a hunter and we are after does/spikes/pigs, again I could care less as long as they accept the possibilities. If I am guiding a hunter and we are after bucks, which could include the possibility of actual trophy sized animals, then yes, the hunter will be using something larger than what I consider a marginal caliber for white tails.

quote:

what I consider a marginal caliber for white tails

This is where we have to agree to disagree.

From my experiences, I do not consider it a marginal caliber for whitetails, or deer in general.

Crazyhorse--I did ask the question--how many voted that have no experience? Your opening guidelines to vote do say they must have actual experience. My question is based on those that say they voted no---but have NO story to post that backs that up. My question is also based on the fact that when people start saying premium bullets are needed, my experience has almost always been that I am talking to a person that has NOT been there done that. The other post that I pointed out where a person says I voted no--I prefer my 22-250 clearly demonstrates they did not understand what they were voting for. BTW I give you much credit for correctly spelling prerogative--most people get that one wrong.

quote:

This is where we have to agree to disagree.

The only part I disagree on, is using the .223's/.224's for larger bucks. As long as a person is competent/capable with the rifle and they are shooting does/spikes/culls from a stand overlooking a feeder, then I really don't have that much of a problem, as long as they understand that things can go wrong.

When hunting a good or even decent buck, I simply prefer that a client is using something where there is a little more margin of error.

One of the aspects that has not been mentioned by you or carpetman, is the FACT, that just because you are competent/capable using the .223's/.224's, that does not mean EVERYONE attempting to do so has YOUR LEVEL of expertise.

When game laws are set, such as those states that restrict big game hunting to .243 or larger, they are set that way, simply because some individuals with little or no experience/expertise will try to do or use the same equipment as someone with years of experience, so the way to prevent that is stipulate that they have to use something larger.

Does that insure or guarantee that someone with little or no experience will be able to make a killing shot, even with a .458 Win. Mag., no it does not.

Reason why I rarely ever recommend the calibers I use, is because a person will have to commit to working with those calibers to u8understand their limitations. In the hands of an experienced shooter, the .223's/.224's work. In the hands of a novice, even larger calibers guarantee nothing, but they do give a little larger margin of error.

quote:

This is where we have to agree to disagree.

You are putting all these caveats, exceptions, and qualifications. You dance around putting all these situations in to play. You are hedging and waffling.

I will take my 22-2250 loaded with 53gr Barnes TSX and hunt deer anywhere, anytime. If there is a rodeo, it will NOT be due to the cartridge/bullet. It will be operator error, plain and simple.

You cannot seem to grasp the fact that it will work across the board. Just because people choose not to use it has ZERO bearing on if it will do the job.

My friend has used his factory Ruger tang safety varmint rifle with factory 55gr softpoints since the late 1970's. He
has shot all the deer SD has to offer. Me and my boys have used it on over 3 dozen antelope/deer. There is nothing marginal about those real experiences.

Just because you choose to use something different, because YOU think it marginal does not make it fact, correct, or true.

We simply have to agree to disagree. I could care less what you use, but stop spreading
because of marginal opinion.

Some of us have BTDT, if you choose not to listen and learn, that's fine by me. BUT stop spreading

SDH, you have your opinion, and while I do not agree with it, I do respect your right to your opinion. I do not believe that you can say the same thing.

You can use whatever you want to when you are hunting deer, I do not care. I will never meet you, never hunt with you, so it makes absolutely no difference to me what YOU decide to use. The whole point that you cannot seem to grasp, is that not EVERYONE has your same level of confidence/competence with their equipment.

There is a lot of difference between a hunter that spends as many days as possible in the field and someone that only goes out opening weekend. If you do not understand that, then you are the one with the problem.

While you seem to take it quite personal, if I am going to deal with a one time a year hunter, I want them using something where precise/accurate shooting has a little bit of leeway. A .223/.224 does not have the margin of error that an inexperienced needs.

quote:

There is a lot of difference between a hunter that spends as many days as possible in the field and someone that only goes out opening weekend. If you do not understand that, then you are the one with the problem.

While you seem to take it quite personal, if I am going to deal with a one time a year hunter, I want them using something where precise/accurate shooting has a little bit of leeway. A .223/.224 does not have the margin of error that an inexperienced needs.

Now we are going from a poll with people who have actual experience to neophyte/once a year hunters.

From my experience, neophyte/once a year hunters shoot better with lower recoiling cartridges.

In the past I have used reduced 270 loads for new/youth hunters. That was before I owned a 22-250. I have successfully started out many people with the reduced 270 loads and full power 22-250's. Taking them to the range and preaching shot placement over everything else has resulted in many successful hunts with no bad stories. Most of my bad stories are from overgunned/overbowed guys I have taken out hunting.

So I pose this question to you: As a guide, would you rather have a 223/224 through the vitals or (insert caliber) with bad shot placement?

It has been my experience that the 223/224 is easier to shoot and place the bullet where it needs to be.

Here is my biggest issue with you. It is simply the fact that you are spreading mistruths and maybe talking somebody into too much gun. You get on your anti 223/224 soapbox. You post polls that are obviously slanted to steer people away from 223/224 rifles. You are not doing anyone a favor. You keep talking about an issue that you have little to no experience with. Do I really have to post the BS flag again? I am calling your BS. Dance, waffle, hedge all you want. It is still BS for people that have BTDT.

I have hunted deer with all sorts of equipment, "marginal" cartidges to dangerous game cartridges and everything in between. Primitive bows to compounds and muzzleloaders. I have on occasion, accidently used a car. I simply cannot ever remember losing a deer due to "marginality". It has always been a poor shot placement issue.

CHC--You want them to have something with a little bit of leeway and larger margin of error. That BS has sold lots of magnums. The old hit em anywhere you hear about at some gun counters. Bigger gun does not increase the size of kill zone. A miss is a miss is a bad hit no matter how big.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
SDH, you have your opinion, and while I do not agree with it, I do respect your right to your opinion. I do not believe that you can say the same thing.

You can use whatever you want to when you are hunting deer, I do not care. I will never meet you, never hunt with you, so it makes absolutely no difference to me what YOU decide to use. The whole point that you cannot seem to grasp, is that not EVERYONE has your same level of confidence/competence with their equipment.

There is a lot of difference between a hunter that spends as many days as possible in the field and someone that only goes out opening weekend. If you do not understand that, then you are the one with the problem.

While you seem to take it quite personal, if I am going to deal with a one time a year hunter, I want them using something where precise/accurate shooting has a little bit of leeway. A .223/.224 does not have the margin of error that an inexperienced needs.

I've had more than a few years hunting and guiding novices and part time hunters at comapny camps amd my experience is the reverse. Except for the occasional talented individual, most of them shot worse as recoil increased. I encouraged them to stay away from the big guns and try someone's 22 centerfire first.

They didn't have reduced recoil loads back then and most oilfield guys wouldn't admit shooting them if they did.

Now that you folks have told me what I am trying to push off on folks, why don't you stop for one minute, take a deep breath and point out ANYWHERE in ANY of my responses I have stated ANYTHING OTHER than .243 or larger.

None of you can, because I haven't. I have not mentioned anything about the calibers I personally use.

I have not stated ANYWHERE in this discussion that .223's/.224's CANNOT/WILL NOT/DO NOT kill deer, because thousands of deer nationwide are killed annually by folks using those calibers.

THAT IS NOT IN QUESTION!!!!!!!!!!

The question, pertains to the FACT that while many people use a.223/.224 caliber rifle for most of their deer hunting, many of those people, and as poll results stand at this point in time, the majority, seem to prefer using something a little larger if a trophy buck is part of the equation.

I have not been trying to prove anything with this poll, other than find out the % of hunters that use these calibers, use them all the time on all the deer they shoot, or use them only on NON-TROPHY size/quality deer.

You folks that believe you have to defend the use of the .223's/.224's ALL the time,, CANNOT convince ANYONE that the recoil of a .243 or .257 Robert's is so severe that no one can handle it, even beginning hunters.

Just to clarify things, I do not like the .243 personally, the smallest caliber my wife and I use on a regular basis is a .257 Robert's.

Anyone, including kids old enough to be able to hunt can shoot a .257 Robert's or a .243, those guns do not recoil that much nor is the muzzle blast from either that excessive.

I have nothing against the various .22 CF's, I have stated that point several times, I just DO NOT believe they are the be all end all as far as deer guns are concerned.

CHC,

I was started with a 243 at age 12. My first experience with a centerfire rifle. "Learned" to shoot it over the hood of the car, no hearing protection, a tank top and a hard plastic buttplate. Full power 100gr loads. How do think that went?

I had a bruised shoulder, ringing ears, and hated that rifle. First deer I ever shot at with rifle was wounded, ran 4 miles before others in the hunting group finally caught up and killed it with a properly placed shot.

Great way to start hunting don't you think?

One of two deer that I have personally lost with any caliber of rifle. The other was a Ruger International #1 in 270. I never really liked that rifle either for some reason and I botched a shot. The deer was shot by another hunter on the adjoining property.

I have used 243's and 257 Roberts, I have never been able tell much difference in them out in the hunting fields. Put them in the right spot and they die. I just have not seen that big of an advantage over them vs the 223/224.

Very big difference in recoil and blast of a .243 and a .223

Dudes you are pussy's plain and simple. I have watched 8 band 9 year olds shooting .243's, and accurately at that, with no problems at all, end of discussion.

My wife had NEVER shot a Center Fire rifle in her life, and I started her out with a .257 Robert's and she has killed more than her fair share of deer and javelina with that gun and has NEVER used ANY hearing protection. She has been using the same gun since the mid 90's.

If the muzzle blast or recoil of a .243 is something YOU PERSONALLY cannot handle, you are pussy's.

At no point, have I said that the various .223's/.224's would not/cannot/does not kill deer. Somehow you Brainiacs cannot comprehend that.

Here is the only thing you geniuses need to consider, 41% versus 59%. I do not give an FRA if you hunt deer with a BB GUN, your decision, and NOT EVERYONE AGREES WITH YOU!!!!!!!

Or you, so STFU. And a 257 Roberts is about as much of a suck ass round as you can find.....

16 Whore, it may be a suck ass round, but ANYONE that says they cannot handle the recoil or muzzle blast from a rifle chambered for that round is a PUSSY, PERIOD!

and the true CHC shows himself. Been called much worse, by much better.

You are the one that brought up neophyte/youth hunters. I was runt growing up, so you are calling me a pussy when I was 12yo? Class, true class.

I am wrong if I am not in the majority OPINION? So all those big deer that have been shot are not dead? Because 59% say they would choose something else, everyone else should. I actually take it as a compliment that I do not think like other sheople and came to my own opinions and conclusions based on actual experiences.

Never been one to worry about majority public opinion anyway. I sure as f&^% could care less what CHC thinks. But I do like to call BS when I see it.

You are 100% dead on about one thing though. We will never share a hunting camp.

SDH, your opinion is your opinion. Just one question here, is a .223/.224 the ONLY rifle you own and hunt with????????

Yes, I used to believe, especially for Texas white tails and especially because of the way the majority are shot, from basically an enclosed bench rest, that both the .222 and then the .223 were good choices for beginning hunters due to their lower recoil and muzzle blast.

The point being to let the shooter gain in experience, make some kills and then stepping up to a slightly larger rifle, for those less than perfect shots at possibly longer ranges.

I have no idea what this "Runt" business has to do with anything, most of the "Runts" I have dealt with over the years are usually shooting the biggest caliber rifle they can afford.

To insinuate that the .243 or .257 Robert's have punishing recoil and sonic boom level muzzle blast, simply does not fit in with what I have experienced.

I really have a hard time believing that there are that many hunters out in the real world that cannot tolerate the recoil of a .243 or a .257 Robert's.

I also seriously doubt that you and the other staunch supporters of the .223/.224, only own guns in those calibers, and do not own or shoot anything larger.

Let me repeat myself.

quote:

I have hunted killed deer with all sorts of equipment, "marginal" (22LR) cartidges to dangerous game cartridges (404 Jeffery) and everything in between. Primitive bows to compounds and muzzleloaders. I have on occasion, accidently used a car. I simply cannot ever remember losing a deer due to "marginality". It has always been a poor shot placement issue.

The 243 and 257 roberts do not have punishing recoil to most adults. But what if you have someone that is recoil sensitive? Should they man up? Is it more important to use a cartridge that people think they should use, or one they are proficient with?

When I shot that 243 as a 12yo, the recoil WAS punishing to me. It was an obstacle to good accuracy. Had I been properly instructed, wih hearing protection and possibility a gun with a recoil pad. It would have made a world of difference. But I was a "pussy" as you so eloquently put it, but it did affect my ability.

But this is not about what happened to me in 1979. It is what we can do right now. I would much rather have a bullet in the right place than in the wrong place. Whatever it takes to accomplish that, I am on board with it.

So your poll came out exactly the way you wanted it to? What does it prove? You will still continue to be anti 223/224 because that is your philosophy. My philosophy is the opposite. We simply have to agree to disagree. I think you are wrong, you think I am wrong.

Your philosophy is use enough gun, my philosophy is the 223/224 is enough gun. You do not believe in my experience, I believe in what I have seen and done. At one point, I thought like you, but I have been impressed and convinced by what I have actually experienced with 223/224's.

You will never get that experience with you current philosophy, I will continue to add to mine.

Well we finally have an admission of the origins of why people use .223s.
They can't shoot and they blame it on the rifle having too much recoil and too much muzzle blast. It never occurs to these types to shoot a lot more with heavier recoiling rifles until they shoot one well. They just camp out with a .223 the rest of their lives and claim that it is only about shot placement... yeah when they cannot place a shot with anything that has any recoil.

quote:

I was started with a 243 at age 12. My first experience with a centerfire rifle. "Learned" to shoot it over the hood of the car, no hearing protection, a tank top and a hard plastic buttplate. Full power 100gr loads. How do think that went?

I had a bruised shoulder, ringing ears, and hated that rifle. First deer I ever shot at with rifle was wounded, ran 4 miles before others in the hunting group finally caught up and killed it with a properly placed shot.

CHC--"For those less than perfect shots at possibly longer ranges"--I sure don't step up to a bigger gun. I pass on the shot. The deer won this time. Attempting a less than perfect shot because you think that magnum or whatever compensates is pure BS. I have passed many a shot and can honestly say I would not have attempted any had I been holding a bigger gun. You pass--you don't get a bigger gun.

Honest question here, when do you start passing on shots, 150 yards/200 yards? Where do you draw the line?

I'll pass on the shot at any range if presentation not right. I don't care to gut shoot em. All this what about a quartering shot and you need a bigger gun for it---I don't need a bigger gun--I pass. I have gone beyond 200 yards but most of time that would be about outter limit.

Do you believe everyone should pass on shots in excess of two hundred yards?

You bring up quartering shots, which was not part of the original question, since I did not list a parameter.

So with that in mind, what is your maximum range on an animal standing perfectly broadside?

This thread is about .224 bullets right?
I shot an Antelope at a true 400 yards with 22/250 and a Barnes TsX 52 grain bullet, broadside, at the shot the animal "humped up" I shot again immediately same hold and it dropped. Both bullets were an inch and a half apart from each other at the top of the heart, both bullets exited and the Antelope never made a step. I would take that shot again on Deer of all sizes and Antelope without any hesitation.
The results were not much different than many animals I've shot with many different cartridges.
By the way we checked the range 3 times each time it was different 401, 399, 400 yards. I call it 400 yards.
I must add that no matter what cartridge I'm shooting there are times when the shot isn't right whether its 35 yards or 500 yards but if everything is right then its a go.
I don't ass shoot anything with any caliber unless its already hit.

That is a reasonable reply, but do you consider yourself an average hunter or an above average hunter?

Do you work with the rifles you use on a regular basis or spend an hour or so at the range on Wednesday and go hunting on Saturday and only use factory loaded ammo?

I still find it somewhat strange, that folks that swear by the various .22 CF cartridges as being all anyone needs for hunting deer openly admitting that if going after a possible trophy animal they prefer carrying a little larger caliber. At no point is anyone saying that they want to go out with a magnum of any kind, just something with a heavier bullet and perhaps capable of a little more killing range.

I agree that no one should take a shot they are not comfortable with, but that is another of those individual abilities concepts that will dictate the shooters actions. Each of us should make accurate shot placement our primary goal. If it can be done with a .22 CF that is great, if it can be done with a .458 Win Mag, that is great also.

I just find it contradictory in some ways that some deer hunters base their choice on gun of the day, based on the concept of the possibility of a trophy animal possibly being encountered.

quote:

I shot an Antelope at a true 400 yards with 22/250 and a Barnes TsX 52 grain bullet, broadside, at the shot the animal "humped up" I shot again immediately same hold and it dropped. Both bullets were an inch and a half apart from each other at the top of the heart, both bullets exited and the Antelope never made a step. I would take that shot again on Deer of all sizes and Antelope without any hesitation.

So let me re-state to make sure I understand: you have a 22-250 that will consistently shoot to 1-1/2" at 400 yards, and you would consistently shoot at deer 400 yards away with a 22-250?

Sheesh...

CHC--The size of the antlers has no bearing whatsoever on whether I pass a shot. You do seem to have it firmly etched that a trophy deer would make a difference. Lets see if I have this correct--your wife shoots a .243 without hearing protection thus youngsters should shoot one. Does she perhaps drive an auto? If so the youngsters can give up their bicycles and drive cars. Maybe she uses a 14 lb bowling ball and the kids should do that too. What I've seen youth do many times with a .223 begs the question why not? I take my work mate folding work bench and set it up. Give the kid a stool and use the bench for a rest. First shot, they realize it doesn't hurt and they enjoy it and want to shoot it some more. A few practice rounds and with something to rest the rifle on they can hit the kill zone fairly easily. They do have young eyes. I have seen this repeated numerous times over the past several years.

Be curious to see what the OP uses to beat a dead horse with. Just sayin......