I really debated whether to post this up, knowing what a catfight all the .223 threads turn into. I posted the info on another thread, but most folks have probably quit reading that one because of how it has turned. In the end, I decided to go ahead and post the test up separate here, as I imagine there are some who will find the information interesting, even if all it does is prove what they already knew.

First off, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. If you want to use it, do it. If not, don't. That simple. All I am doing is reporting what I have seen. My theory on many things is "listen, but verify." I wanted to know how some bullets really stacked up against each other, if my opinions had validity or not. So I shot bullets and tested.

I shot 8 different bullet styles at a distance of 80 yards. Rifle was a CZ-527 with a 21" barrel. The loads used either AA-2230 or W-748 for the powder, with charges near the top of the load charts. Not killing my brass, but don't want to go much hotter either.

Test medium was wet newsprint. I stacked sheets in a box lined with a plastic trash bag to hold water. I loaded the box to about 70% to give room for the paper to expand, and let it soak for 3 hours. I shot rounds far enough apart they did not hit the tracks of other bullets. Simple enough.

With no further ado, here is what happened. The first three bullets I shot 2 each for uniformity, they were the ones I was really interested in. First number is depth of penetration, (in paranthesis) is retained weight in grains.

Barnes 53 original X- 11.25"(35), 11.25"(34.6)
Nosler 60 solid base- 10.5"(35.3), 9.75"(34.9)
Winch. 64 Power Point- 9.25"(49.7), 9.0"(46.9)
Midway Dogtown 50 spit- 6.5"(28.0)
Remington 55 PSP- 6"(33.0)
Sierra 50 Blitzking- 5.5"(18.3)
Speer 52 TNT HP- 5.0"(14.6)
Hornady 52 AMAX- 4.25" (fragments only)

Barnes performed pretty much as expected, except it did scrub off more petals than I thought it would. I really would have thought retained weight would have been higher, kinda suprised there. BUT, these are the old orginal X, and not the new TSX. TSX is supposed to be alot better bullet. I just didn't have any. Wound channel pretty linear from one end to the other, like alot of Barnes I have tested.

Nosler Solid Base really suprised me. It did start out heavier than the Barnes, but not alot heavier, and still had a final weight equal to the Barnes. It dug nearly as deep, and had a really good wound channel. When I first started down through the stack I expected it to come up way short due to the damage it was causing, was really suprised to see it beat out the Winchester in penetration depth. Keep it in the ribs and this is your bullet, it causes alot of damage in the right place.

Winchester 64 PowerPoint is another really good bullet, especailly for the budget minded. It dug deep too, and had a final weight higher than anything else. Shoulder shot I would go with this or the Barnes. Core was still locked into the jacket real well, and still a good amount of bullet shank left. Very impressive for a cheap cup-n-core bullet. Thick jacket really helps, very pretty mushroom. Good wound channel all the way through.

The rest, well, they are varmint bullets, but a couple of them actually did fairly well considering. I was suprised the Dogtown beat out the heavier Remington PSP. I would really like to know who makes that bullet for Midway. It did prove to me that the Remington is a way softer bullet than the Winny, which I already knew.

AMAX totally cratered, that did not suprise me either.

I will try and get a pic of the bullets up after lunch sometime.

There are some other bullets I wish I had some of to test. One is the 55 Trophy Bonded, and of course, the 60 Partition. Another is the Hornady 60 hp, I have heard it has a tough jacket and is a good deer bullet. The 63 Sierra SMP has a good reputation as well. If anyone has a few of these they would like to get tested, send me a couple and I will run another test. I'll even throw a 40 NBT in there too.

BTW, if you would like to see another test I ran to help put things in perspective, here is a test I did a few years ago on .308 bullets.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...461004601#9461004601

JTPin Tx--I have only recovered two bullets in deer. They were both 55 grain Win Bulk packed shot from .223. Each of the recovered bases weighed 40 grains and were perfect mushroom. Both were found just under the skin on the off side. To me the odd thing was that these were smaller deer and had always gotten complete pass through on lots of larger deer. In both cases deer was dropped on spot. My nephew has these bases and if he locates them I'll provide picture.

Wet newspaper is pretty dense the way I do the test. I would expect the penetration in game to be quite a bit deeper, unless some solid bone was hit. Even testing "real" deer rifles with good bullets, seldom do I see anything go past 12-14" unless you are talking a heavy for caliber premium. I know from experience with those loads they will go way deeper in flesh unless you smack solid bone.

Anyways, looking at this test it doesn't suprise me you haven't found many bullets. Put through the ribs/lungs they should go through.

I thought this was (also) a good test and report:

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-...l/tactical-test.html

Also for the enjoyment of those who like these sort of threads, here's a link to a comparison. The whole article is interesting to me, and towards the bottom are some reported lab results of tests in gel. (Terminal Ballistics)

Although the bullets reported aren't those I would use for hunting, it's still interesting that the lab reports yawing, tumbling and fragmentaton on 6.5 bullets, but they still penetrated well, and the velocity of the 6.5 Grendel is relatively low.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5_mm_Grendel

quote:

. Another is the Hornady 60 hp, I have heard it has a tough jacket and is a good deer bullet. The 63 Sierra SMP has a good reputation as well. If anyone has a few of these they would like to get tested, send me a couple and I will run another test.

On the way.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:

quote:

. Another is the Hornady 60 hp, I have heard it has a tough jacket and is a good deer bullet. The 63 Sierra SMP has a good reputation as well. If anyone has a few of these they would like to get tested, send me a couple and I will run another test.

On the way.

Golly, I'm gonna owe you big time before this whole deal is said and done. You must have the mother lode of .223 components. I appreciate it!

Here is a pic of the bullets. Left to right in the same order as the depth of penetration. Barnes, Nosler, Win 64, Dogtown, Rem 55, Blitzking, TNT. No AMAX.

The Barnes and the Win 64's are the only ones whose base is actually resting on the table. All other bullets the curled up jacket is holding the base up, so it is kinda decieving to look at. Cores are still in the Noslers but could be popped out real easy, and might would have on game.

Interesting. The knock I have had on the .243 is people ussing the wrong (lightweight) bullet, rather than one properly designed for the job. Perhaps, with a properly designed bullet, the .224 calibers will work fine on deer size game.

Thank you for posting your test. Well done. I use the same medium 'just to get some idea' of how projectiles perform compared to each other in wet newspaper.

I use the Sierra 63 SMP and 65 SptBt in my .223 for goats, small pigs and Australian ferals up to 40kg liveweight. I will be interested to read your test of these.

I wish Nosler would bring back the SB projectiles in .224. They were/are a great design.

Thanks for the results

Other then showing how the bullet preform in wet news print.

Does not have a bearing on how they preform on a live critter.

News print normally gives under penitation and bigger expansion.

Fun to do any ways in my youth I shot lots of it and other materials with rifles,pistols, buckshot and slugs.

Plain water is the most common and cheapest and gives a better idea on how bullets perform on living critters.

I would agree with the underpenetration and over expansion. Wet newspaper is "tougher" to me than flesh. Lungs have alot of air in them and are not very dense. I also think that newspaper also "tunnels" the bullets and helps to retain bullet weight. The framents tend to follow the path of least resistance and carry along the wound channel more, not dispersing as well.

Having said that though, I still think there is good value in the newspaper tests comparing one bullet to another. it does bring out the general tendencies of the design, and can show flaws and/or strengths.

The ultimate test will always be game. That testing phase starts Saturday.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Thanks for the results

Plain water is the most common and cheapest and gives a better idea on how bullets perform on living critters.

I was gonna say the same thing, but at the risk of dismissal as a naysayer.

The reason I was thinking that is because I'm remembering back to when I was in college, and had my first deer rifle, a 243. Naturally, any tests back then had to be simple and easy, because I just wouldn't have gone to much trouble then.

I remember setting up in tandem water filled gallon jugs or cans, can't remember which, just to see what the bullet would do especially to the second jug in line. I recall that I set them about six inches apart. As I remember it, I was surprised that some bullets didn't make it to the second jug. Some made it, but as fragments. Some made it as both fragments and one main chunk. It was a long time ago, but I have it set in memory that none made it through the second jug.

I may have to try that test again, now that I have a nice little Winchester 243.

KB

JTPinTX

Excellent work. You are doing it correct. I have been testing in this, and similar medium for over 15 years now, and it works, it gives you an excellent idea of what your bullet is going to do in the field. I know this because I have done enough test work and correlated it with field data. While most of my work is in big bores, the data correlates exactly right on down to 223, as you have tested here.

My test medium is a bit different than your straight mix of wet newsprint. I started injecting catalog/magazine material about 7-8 years ago. 6-7 inches wet newsprint, 1.5-2 inches of catalog/magazine material. This does increase the "toughness" if you want to call it that, by 30%-35% over wet newsprint alone. I have loads of data on both mediums to know this.

quote:

Wet newspaper is pretty dense the way I do the test. I would expect the penetration in game to be quite a bit deeper, unless some solid bone was hit. Even testing "real" deer rifles with good bullets, seldom do I see anything go past 12-14" unless you are talking a heavy for caliber premium. I know from experience with those loads they will go way deeper in flesh unless you smack solid bone.

Once again, you are 100% spot on. Wet newsprint is denser than animal tissue, penetration is deeper in animal tissue than in the test medium. Correlating data from my test medium as a rule of thumb for expanding or Non Conventional expanding bullets you will get 80% to 100% more penetration in animal tissue than in the test medium. For Solid bullets you can look for 35% more penetration in animal tissue than in the test medium. This has proven out over and over again bullets tested in the medium first, then taken to the field.

Unless bone is contacted, if you recover your expanding bullets they will match exactly your test bullets, difference, one will have paper residue, the other blood! I have 100s of examples of these. Of course the other difference will be Impact Velocity. Other than that, exactly the same. So What you See, Is What You Get!


I have been involved in these projects for many years, and if you have interest come up to Big Bores and the Terminal Performance Thread. Mostly Big Bore bullets there, but yesterday I started testing the new ESP Raptors from Cutting Edge Bullets, and I have started at the bottom and working my way up through calibers. Which means I just tested the .224 40 gr ESP Raptor in both 223 Remington and 223 WSSM.

Comparing penetration would be good, mine is going to be 30%-35% less than yours overall because of the magazine/catalog mix. On some of your softer bullets, they are going to equal out close as they are found 5-6 inches, before they would hit my catalog stack.


Very good work, doing a great job, do not ever allow anyone to say otherwise. If so, ignore them as ignorant and continue forward as I have. In the end, you will be able to prove your work in the field! This I promise! I have done it, over and over!

Michael

Thank you Micheal. I read quite a bit about different bullet testing methods before I started doing this. I know there can be issues and pitfalls with it, just as with anything in life. No test mirrors exactly what can be found in field conditions, even other field conditions. However, I do believe it is the best "relatively simple" test a guy can do. Gel is a real PITA with mixing, chilling, calibration, and cost. No way am I jumping through all those hoops just for my own purposes.

The paper I like because I can peel back layers and get precise penetration depths, something hard to do with just water. Water alone is also a big mess, takes alot of containers, and alot of jacking around with it if you are testing alot of bullets. With newspaper you can also look at the permenant damage cavities left by the bullets, something else not possible with just water. I don't really have a way to measure that last one, I just get a feel for it as I peel back they layers. No big deal though since I am not really publishing anything, just more or less doing it for my own satisfaction.

BTW, that Nosler solid base had an impressive wound track, I can't say that enough. No way would I have thought it would go that deep. I kept expecting to find them, but they just kept on going. I'm not sure I wouldn't pick that bullet over the Barnes, honestly. Don't know why they discontinued it, heard alot of other folks wonder the same thing. Believers hoard them like gold. I loaded 40 of them last night to open season with tomorrow.

I have some more bullets coming, and plan to hammer some of the best through my .220 swift as well. Still looking for a few 60 partitions, or any other bullet someone thinks is the cats meow.

JTP

You are welcome. I concur with your take on the matter completely.

PM me an address and I will get a couple of BBW#13 NonCons 55 grs over to you to test for yourself. I would like to see that and what you come up with.

When the .224 Raptors get sorted out I will send some of those to you as well.

Michael

The 60 grain Solid Base (old style lead tip) is what is loaded in a .223 for my grandson for his first deer hunting experience. The result was two bucks with one-shot kills.

Few people seem to recognize the deep penetration qualities that the solid base of guilding metal gives to both this bullet and its successor, the Ballistic Tip.

What twist is your 223 ? .I have some 70 gr TSX But they need a fast twist or a lot PG velocity. to stabilize. J It takes @least 1:8 twist. 1:7 is better. I still have 18 of them I would b glad to send along.

Whether or not west newspaper matches flesh isn't the point being made. It's the relative penetration between the different bullets. (considering how little deformity there was to the X bullet compared to the others, it's not surprising that it penetrated further) One advantage of newsprint over water is you can track the bullet path and see how much trauma it is causing.

Agree, wasbeeman. What suprised me though was how close the other two came to the Barnes, especially the Nosler. Good jacket on that one. I will take donations from anyone who has any of those old crappy discontinued solid base bullets they need to get rid of.

My rifle is a CZ-527 with the 1 in 12 twist, not the 1 in 9. Not a chance it will stabilize the 70 TSX.

Loaded up 40 rounds of the solid base to open season with in the morning. Just put three of them into about 2" at 200 yards off a bipod in a 15 mph wind. Vertical was about an inch, but had a little "wind report" on one of them, kicked it over an extra inch or so. That should work plenty good, don't plan to shoot further than that untill I get more comfortable with them.

quote:

I would really like to know who makes that bullet for Midway.

Nosler makes the Dogtown Bullets.

Thanks for posting the test. Be it water, newsprint, or something more expensive, a controlled test can dispell alot of myth.

Thanks for the bullets test and the info that is coming from all of you lads. Keep it up.

One request would be to include in your testing, if possible, some bullet performance at some of the lower velocities......say 2300-2600fps! and then post those results. Maybe you could also throw in a 40g NBT at those velocities if the mood where to move you.

It will be interesting to see what the sum total of all this testing and experimenting will show as the final results. If those results show great performance in these test, the anti will over look testing, comparison tests, bullet recovery, photographs, real world experience and resort to the oft used phase of stunts and "beyond the design of the manufacturer"


Watch and see what their reaction is when you have completed all the tests. It will be funny.

I have 65 Gamekings and 70 grain Speers loaded in my Mini-14 as my truck gun. I going to bring in the offseason in case I see a predator or hog. I've heard some good things about the Speers.

Antelope sniper- I sure was thinking that dogtown bullet might have been a Nosler. It just looks like one.

Teancum- I have some 40 NBT's just didn't have a chance to get them in the last test. I was running behind trying to get some "in the field" loads ready. The .223 was the last rifle in line, season was closing in fast. I will do some more, it may trickle in every few weeks, but I'll keep plugging away at it. May have a nice little suprise coming next week. Have to think about the next test and see what I want to do there, what I'm gonna have to test.

Scott- shot a few of those 70 Speers once in my .220, wouldn't stabilize for me. They were crossways at 75 yards. If you had the twist for them I bet they would go deep though.

JTP if those 60 grn nosler field test well for you, I have another part box you can have.

General season opens in the morning. Gonna head out for some nanny slammin' (hopefully) at my bow spot in the woods, but gonna carry the CZ. Neighbors hould have them stirred up pretty good, hopefully I get a chance to knock down a couple. After that I will leave that spot alone for a few weeks and let it settle, hoping the big fellas will be back in for the rut. They have moved a mile and a half over to my sons spot right now, following crops. They will be back though, always are mid-late Nov. Plan on laying in some fields the rest of the weekend doing some random sniping as long as the deer cooperate.

Nicely done.

I have used water filled milk jugs for years to compare performance of one bullet to another but have not really settled on how to quantify the results related to on-game performance. Nate

JTPin,
This has been a very good report. I have been shooting small caliber rifles on deer for yrs.

If you have a 204 Ruger I would like to see the difference between the 223 results. Hornady makes a 45 gr SP in 204 which has been claimed to be a good deer bullet without coming apart inside a deer. Does anyone have any results with this bullet?

Anecdotal reports indicate that the 20 cal Berger 40gn penetrates better than the 45gn Hornady SP.
Attributed to harder cup copper.
I have both for a 20VT ( 1:10 ) but am still collecting phonebooks

Okay, first field report. Mr Joe Friday, only the facts.

No joy this morning, the neightbor must have stirred them the wrong way 'cause all I saw were fawns and immature bucks. 4 shots close to me though.

Tonight I scored. Had a youngish doe and her fawn come slipping into my bow setup. She was lollygagging around and then suddenly decided to bail, so I had to take the shot I had. Right at 50 yards, partially quartering away, had to thread the needle through some tree branches and such. Not too bad, but the bullet had to go right. Shot was from a 23 foot ladder stand, so slightly angling down. 30+ mph winds were really swaying that big cottonwood, complicating the shot. Load was 60 grain Nosler Solid Base pushed with 26.3 grains of W748. No chrono data.

At the shot she took of hard but kinda wobbly. Couldn't see her run much because of the trees, she was out of sight in probably 10 yards. It was early and I was wanting to double if I could so I gave it about an hour before I called it quits.

Blood trail was pretty easy, you could see where she hit several trees. Total distance traveled was about 60 yards +/-. When the trigger broke I called heart shot, which matched good with the way she ran. IME, heartshot whitetails run balls to the wall untill they crash. Entry hole looked good when I found her.

Upon field dressing, here is what I found. Bullet entered dead center on the 7th rib back from the front on the left side, shattering it. The bullet then traveled through the lungs, and took off the top of the heart as it angled forward. It was a real mess in there. From there, what was left of the bullet (not much) broke the third rib from the front on the right side as it came through. This piece, which I suspect to be the solid base, then broke the right shoulder, but did not exit. It was not just under the skin, and since we have requirements for the meat to be donated to the prison, I did not take my autopsy further looking for the bullet. I can say from looking at the hole in the inside of the ribcage, the piece was not large at all. It really suprised me it broke the right leg, but it did.

There you have it, it is what it is. Will keep updating this thread with any further results.

Great information, thanks for your testing and reporting of results. I would be interested in hearing more.

I am loading the 53 gr Barnes in my 5.6x50r at
approx 3200. I have taken 5 or 6 hogs with head and neck shots from a variety of angles and all have been pass thrus. Never very big exits but always drt.

Me and my family has shot enough Mule Deer and whitetail with the 60 gr. Hornady SP and HP to be convienced its as good as any bullet in a 222, 223 or 22-250. I have some recovered bullet that are a perfect mushroom and 99% instant kills have resulted..All shots with few exceptions have been standing and under 100 yards, but a few have been 200 and a bit more with almost the same results. Beyond that your pushing the string IMO.

Loading up for the next round of newspaper testing. I promise there will be some good points for discussion in this test. 40 NBT at two velocities, 60 Hornady HP, 63 Sierra SMP, 53 Barnes for control, and if the mail runs in a couple days, hopefully a 40 Raptor and a 55 Non Con. Gonna break out the chrono for this one too, but not going to run it untill I get everything here. Really looking forward to this one.

JTPinTX--My grandson shot a doe using my .222 that ran about the way you described. I shot one with 22-250 that ran about half that distance. These were only two that weren't down where they stood--55 grain Winchester Bulk packed.

Everyone like a good picture, thought I would post this one up that I snapped the other night. In my experience there is something about this hit (top of heart) that produces a high percentage of 50-100 yard top speed runs. Don't know what it is about a deers biology that makes this hit do that, but it sure seems to happen alot, regardless of the cartridge used.

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
Okay, first field report. Mr Joe Friday, only the facts.

Upon field dressing, here is what I found. Bullet entered dead center on the 7th rib back from the front on the left side, shattering it. The bullet then traveled through the lungs, and took off the top of the heart as it angled forward. It was a real mess in there. From there, what was left of the bullet (not much) broke the third rib from the front on the right side as it came through. This piece, which I suspect to be the solid base, then broke the right shoulder, but did not exit.

I doubt it would have happened that way, same shot angle, with carpetman's favorite bullet, the Winchester 55gr varmint bullet.

When are you going to test that particular bullet? Since carpetman has a large stash of those cheap bullets, he should send you some for a test in the wet news print.

KB

You know the one thing that really suprised me? That was finding that offside leg broke. Granted, she was in deep shadow and I was so focused on the shot (kinda complex) that I didn't get to see her run good, but she dang sure didn't look like she had a broke leg to me when she took off. Wish I coulda dug into that a little deeper. Maybe the bullet just cracked it some and she finished the break hitting one of those trees. I dunno. One of those unpredictable live game things.

I can understand your surprise about the broken leg. Heck, it surprises me every time I see a picture, any picture, of evidence a deer was actually cleanly killed with a 223.

Are you sure that's not a real close up of a rabbit's heart, magnified to look like deer's?

Actually, it is encouraging to see that with the right .223 bullets, results like that are achieved almost like using a real deer rifle. The only difference I can estimate is that some of that heart can be salvaged, whereas a similar hit with a 308, for example, may have destroyed the whole thing. I can see the merit in avoiding overkill. Why blow up the entire heart, when just the top will do just fine?

KB

I shot a nice forked horn on Kruzof Is.with a 338 win Mag.. 200 gr X@2900 fps Mv. Offhand @a skosh over 100 yrds. Quartering slightly but nearly broadside. At th shot the deer reared up on its hind legs then took off for the brush. It was out in a muskeg. It ran about 80-100yards . I found the ball of one of it front leg bones before we found the Buck. That deer weighed around 140 lbs. It could be argued that your 223 worked better than my 338 did...Sitka Blacktails.seem to rear up from a heart shot.

Gumboot, you .338 deer story does not suprise me. With a broadside shoot on deer the old 250gr Sierra's would make a .338 hole going in, and about a .35 holegoing out. Even the 200gr Speer don't seem to expand much when you shoot them the long way. With a conventional bullet, a good .270 Win will usually do more damage to a deer then a .338. Ballistic tips seem to fix the problem....