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| One of Us |
Since we are in the dead space between two tests while I wait on some bullets, I'm gonna float an unconventional idea out there. I've been up on the big bore forum (even though I don't have anything remotely resembling a big bore), trying to get a handle on these non con bullets they are working with. VERY interesting thread up there on terminal ballistics. Very intersting work going on with these bullets. As I read along though, a crazy idea began to form in my head. Once you begin thinking about the weight of the big African dangerous game, and relating it to the power of the weapons used to bring it down, power to weight ratios are not much different than a .223 on deer. Really, think about it. Heresy I know. Hear me out for just a second before you get the torches and pitchforks. If you apply the priciples of killing dangerous game to killing whitetails, where would you be? You would be at a pound of KE or so per pound of body weight, short ranges, bullets that penetrate deep enough to hit vitals from bad angles, and a premium on putting the shot in the right place. I can take my 30-06 and put roughly 7-10 pounds of KE per pound of body weight into a hit on a whitetail and not have to think about too much. I'm not trying to talk anyone into anything here, just doing some out of the box thinking. Kangaroo court is now in session. | |||
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JTP in Tx---Somewhere hidden in the 9 pages of Teancums thread on the mule deer with .223, I did a comparison of what gun it would take on an elephant to be comparable to a .223 on deer. Need a 15 inch bullet and 90,000 PSI. | |||
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JTP in Tx--When you were in the big bore section did you see Kabluey? He'd fit right in there. | |||
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My thoughts are that the only reason 223 advocates use the cartridge to shoot deer is because they can get away with it, and got it all rationalized in their heads. After all, deer run away after the hit, if they can, and they can often if the 223 is used. Hogs may be different, but shooting from a stand or truck is pretty safe. If deer charged more often than not, or even sometimes, I figure the chicken chit is off, and the 223 wouldn't be nearly as popular for deer and hogs. I know there are laws and rules in Africa, for good reason, to prevent some dumb ass from poking a hole in a cape buff with a 30-06, but you sure don't hear/read of someone bragging about it as they do with deer and the 223. Imo, it would be about the same stunt, in relative killing power. Sure a 30-06 would kill a buff, just as a 223 kills deer. The only difference, besides the law, is that a buff will stomp and gore you into a bloody pulp for messing with his day, but the deer will run off to die. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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.223 shooters aren't the only ones who have things rationalized in their head. | |||
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True. But 223 shooters are the ones who have that particular rationalization class in their heads.  KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Following that rationalization, bows should be outlawed. 'Cause I guarantee you a .223 is more effective on whitetail than a bow, and I don't know a single state where a bow isn't legal. | |||
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JTPinTX Thanks for your work in running these tests and the end results will be interesting. I think Kaboom (ye ole flock shooter) is past reasoning or trying to inform of any new discoveries. He has a closed mind and not worth your time. I've had him on ignore and only get a sample of his dribble when someone unfortunately quotes him. Ignoring the ole fart make life so much more enjoyable and enables you to share both give and receive new concepts, ideas and experience from the others on these boards. | |||
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I love doing things like this. I have a never ending quest for knowledge. Some works out the way I think, some doesn't, but I always learn. Gonna section some bullets tomorrow, I think there will be some intersting observations about the 40 NBT, I already have one of those that theback40 sent me. There is a reason it can stand 4300+ fps. I am anxious to shoot some at .223 speeds. | |||
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Ditto. I am really interested in your (JTPinTX) tests as well, and find them informative. I really wish you would specifically test some of teancum's and carpetman's claims with their magic bullets. Maybe your reports have more credability than the test link I already posted, which basically confirmed what I have already said about varmint bullets and fragmentation. Those two artists stand out as fine examples sustaining some of my bias against the use of the 223 for deer. After reading their BS about the magic of the 223 I don't believe anything they say now. Others (like JTP) give me a little bit of reason to think that maybe there is some merit in using a 223 on deer. After all, it's hard to find fault with a guy who is ready and willing to put stuff to the test, and be somewhat objecitve about it. However, IMO, in reality, there are tests aplenty already out there. It's still fun to see pictures and results from an amateur. I think we all know what the results should show, but are willing to accept some surprises. There are 223 bullets designed to fragment, and that's what they do. There are 223 bullets designed to hold together better for deer, and lo and behold, they do. It's not rocket science, and all a guy has to do for the most part is read what the mfg says about the bullet. I just can't figure out what is so complicated about that for guys like carpetman and teancum in particular, and some others too. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I guarantee you that an explosive 223 varmint bullet out of a 223 is not as effective as a broadhead. To lump the 223 into one broad catagory is the basic problem that seems to persist with the advocates of the 223. A 40gr or 55gr varmint bullet ain't an apples-to-apples comparison with a 223 bullet designed to hold together. Even you, who IMO shows more objectivity than usual for a 223 advocate, are guilty of making broad statments about the 223, which I simply don't think is true. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I would assume the .223 is being loaded correctly, just as I would assume the bow is setup correctly. Mechanical broadhead in a low poundage bow is a recipe for disaster as well, and yes there are alot of weekend warrior bowhunters that do that too. Probably just as many as use the "wrong" bullet in a .223, or more. There are morons in any group of hunters, anywhere, that use poor judgement. You can't fix that. That aside, there are other issues with bows too. I had a doe ON VIDEO, do a "Matrix" string jump on me three weeks ago. Fifteen yards, I would have thought no way in hell could she do that. But she did, moving a full 9" in the last three yards of arrow flight, and I have video to prove it. While she could have had a random movement in front of a .223, there is no way she could have reacted to the shot and jumped it. You can't pick and choose what facts you are going to use. If you are going to compare weapons, compare ALL the facets of the weapon. I know lease managers who have banned bows from their property due to the number of lost deer. None would even think of banning a .223. Simple fact is, the .223 can be effective, and is effective when used properly. It is even effective a large part of the time when it is not used properly. It would be just as easy for me to lump all the large caliber for deer guys in the same catergory and just state they are having to make up for poor shooting. But I don't becuase you and me both know it isn't true in general. There are some that do, but I sure am not going to paint a whole class of hunters with that brush. Don't know why I let myself get drug into that argument again. Nothing new to be said on that front. I'm gonna go section some bullets and try to find knowledge, not supposition. | |||
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Oh, and BTW, I'm not a ".223 advocate." Generally, I leave my 7x57 in the safe in favor of my 30-06 or my sons .270W. I am usually the guy that preaches skip the premium bullet, go heavy for caliber cup-n-core, and use enough freakin' gun. I just get tired of hearing the same opinions all the time and thought it would be refreshing to actually test all the bullets I could in paper and see what they really do. Then, since I have the opportunity, take them into the field and see if paper tests held up to reality. It is a pure quest for knowledge. Like most things, generally you can get both sides of the story and the truth is somewhere in the middle. | |||
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JTP, We just have different perspectives of bow hunting: http://www.youtube.com/user/la...#p/a/u/0/NjJYCKJa4Hg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI6Dpk1zS7k&NR=1 ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Okay, you guys owe me. Sectioning bullets no big deal, but the freakin picture nearly drove me crazy. Pretty dang hard geeting it close enoough and sharp enough to tell anything without glare washing everything out. Finally got one decent enough that I think ya'll can at least see what I am talking about on a few of these bullets. Pretty interesting though. Left to right bullets are as follows: 64 Win PP, 63 Sierra SMP, 60 Noslser Solid Base, 40 Nosler Ballsitic Tip, 55 Rem PSP, 50 Midway Dogtown, 60 Hornady HP. Accidentally melted the core on the Hornady, it was the first one I did and my belt was kinda old. The lead level in that bullet appears to be just above where it shows in the picture. Knocked the tip off the solid base too, disregard that.  Okay, now my thoughts from looking at it in person where you can see detail much better. 64 Winchester is pretty obvious. Heavy bullet, jacket twice as thick as anything else. Jacket composition different, looks like it has alot more bronze in it which would make it more brittle. Thickness way overcomes that though. 63 Sierra kinda suprised me. Really looks to me like it has the thinnest jacket of the whole bunch, except maybe the center section of the Dogtown. Supposed to do decent in deer, probably just by virtue of bullet weight slowing impact velocity down. This next pair is very interesting, the 60 solid base and the 40 NBT. Both jackets start the same thickness at the nose, of course the BT has the tip to upset and start rapid expansion. Jacket on the solid base stays pretty much the same all the way down where the BT starts to thicken before it gets to the base. The base on the 40 is thicker, visible so. After having seen what the travelling solid base can do in several deer over the years (I shoot NBTs in several calibers), I think this little pill may suprise some folks if velocity is kept in check. Very anxious to try one in paper. Some very interesting things happen with NBT's in 7mm as you change bullet weights and velocities, I will be curious to see if any of these traits carry over here. Looking at the 55 rem and the Dogtown sectioned, I would have expected the Remington to fare a little better, not the other way around as my test showed. That was just one bullet of each, so large scale testing might flip-flop the results. Jacket on the Remington is slightly thicker and it has 5 grains more bullet weight. The Hornady is interesting. Jacket in the base about the same as everything else, but thinner in the ogive, and much thicker at the tip. I suspect that the thick jacket at the tip will collapse in just turning the bullet into a chunk. Once again, will be very interesting to shoot in paper. | |||
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Sitting here looking at this and wondering what it would do if you pulled the tip out of the 40 NBT. Other than that tip, it is actually a pretty robust little bullet. If you delayed upset... | |||
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I don't think that pulling the tip would delay uposet, it would only delay its arrival  I'm always on the lookout for a box of the old Nosler Solid Base bullets, particularly the .224/60's. Several of the larger calibers have been produced recently for sale to ammunition companies (and the overruns sold through Nosler's Shooter's Pro Shop as "seconds"), but I haven't seen any of the .224" offered there. I load nothing but the Solid Base bullets in my .243, .270, and .30-06. I thought so much of the bullet's performance that I carried a .30-06 loaded with the 165 grain SB's to Africa as my back-up gun. | |||
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Good possibility on the 40 NBT, just wondering out loud as I sometimes do. I know someone who has a partial box of the .224/60 solid base that has been offered to me, but he has sent me so much already I would feel like I was stealing from him to take it. I already feel guilty. I keep an eye on that Shooters Pro Shop list too, but have never seen them there. | |||
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JTP I think that you are on the right track. Look at Micheal's testing of the Rapters w/wo, tips. The tips do cause the bullets to open sooner. Test the NBTs tio confirm. (w/wo) Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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I am supposed to have some Raptors and BBW13's in my hand the next couple days to throw in this test. Micheal was kind enough to send me his leftovers to throw in the mix. It looks like I still have at least two more boxes of newspaper to kill. Set one up this afternoon to soak overnight, may shoot a box tomorrow. | |||
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GRrrrrrr... Wouldn't cha know, life always has to get in the way of things. Got box, bench, chono, all that stuff setup early this morning so as soon as lunch hit I could run my shooting test. Go roll open the door and my BIL's hired hands are moving equipment in my "shooting range." Cranky old stripper won't start so I am sitting here while they go to town and get a new battery and put it on. We live in the land of manyana here too, so it ain't happening fast. May be afternoon break before I can shoot. The best laid plans of mice and men... | |||
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Okay, got it. While mi compadres went to town, I got set back up real quick, shot, and cut my box open. I put some 1/8" thick pieces of expanded PVC sheet in there at 1.5", 5.5" and 9.5". These sheets proved to be tougher and more brittle than I had anticipated. They shattered, but created another set of penetration obstacles for the bullets. I shot one of the Barnes from the first set of tests as a "control" round for comparison, and it stopped nearly 2" short of the previous test. It stopped right at the third PVC sheet, right in the middle of the sheet (9.25" vs 11.25" from the first test). So, tougher medium today. The first sheet, especially, wreaked some havoc. So what happened? Well, my chonograph blew over and crapped out for one thing, finally for the last two shots I got a reading. Luckily, one of those readings was for my 40 NBT reduced load that i really needed to know the speed for. Speed on that round with 12.4 grains of Blue Dot was 2833 fps. Not quite as slow as what I wanted, but okay. Here we go: 40 NBT normal speed 6 3/8" 12.8 grns 40 NBT normal speed 7 inches 13.7 grns 40 NBT normal (no tip) 5 3/4" 12.8 grns 40 NBT normal (no tip) 6 inches 12.9 grns 40 NBT reduced load 6 5/8" 12.8 grns 40 NBT reduced load 6 5/8" 13.0 grns 60 Hornady HP 6 7/8" 28.5 grns 60 Hornady HP 7 inches 29.0 grns 63 Sierra SMP 6 3/4" 32.6 grns 63 Sierra SMP 7 1/8" 35.9 grns 53 Barnes 9 1/4" 35.1 grns Pulling the plastic tip definitely made the NBT open FASTER, not slower as I was curious about. Definitely got proved wrong there. Normal vs reduced load NBT's, no real difference that I could see, but I didn't get the speed down where TEANCUM wanted to see it either, I overshot by about 300 fps or so. Sorry about that. I have shot the Blue Dot plenty, just hadn't chronoed it before. The one round I got went 2833. At any rate, the little light 40's dug about a half inch deeper than the Dogtown and Rem PSP did in the last test, AND they did it in a medium that took a 2" off the penetration of the Barnes. I'll let everyone draw whatever conclusion they want to from that. All of the NBT's opened fast, alot of destruction early up front. Get one of those through the ribs and into the lungs and things are gonna be a mess. But, they also shed that pretty quick, and you could tell they were down to just the 13 grain base within about 3"-4" or so. That solid base kept going but they did tend to skate around alot and not drive true. I would still trust them more than the other varmint bullets because I am pretty sure that base is getting into the vitals worst case. Hornadys and Sierras? Just right at 7", the Sierras held on to more weight and had a cleaner mushroom. I probably like them a bit better. Knowing now what that PVC did to the Barnes I wish I would have shot a Solid Base and Power Point into this one as well. I have a feeling both of them would have been not much deeper that the Sierra and Hornady. I wouldn't hesitate to use either the 60 HP or the 63 SMP. | |||
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Good test JTP. Can't wait to see what you come up with on the BBW#13 and the Raptor! Good work Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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You know, kinda funny. I was reading a thread on 24 hour last night about why the BS threads last the longest. Someone made the comment that the fastest way to kill a thread was to post a serious well reasoned response, a scientific test, or other factual data. Kinda seems to be the case here. Anyways, I am not done yet, got a few more tests to do with some neat bullets I got in yesterday. I need to go out now and get some newspaper soaking for more testing. I'll be back in a bit and maybe post a couple pictures from yesterday and tell ya about my "water" testing this morning and how it compared to paper. I'm about ready to be done testing this rat gun and go kill something. | |||
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So, the moral is? ...... Don't post BS and plan on others accepting it? I'm not trying to deminish your posts and tests, which I like, but somehow I find the above quote ironic, sorta. I tried the reasoned and thought out response thingy, and it has been dismissed or called BS in return. So, I'm glad to see your tests posted, which has produced some surprises for me as well. At least now we know why the 40gr BT doesn't completely evaporate on the surface of the target, among other things. BTW, that thick base seems to me there for the purpose of withstanding the super high pressure and velocity some push the little bullet at, rather than for penetration. IMO, it's just coincidence that the residual solid base will push through a bit, once the bullet has slowed down some. With a SD of .141 for an intact bullet, I can't imagine the bullet is designed for penetration after the front 3/4 has evaporated. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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The main problem with tiny bore rifle bullets is that they don't leave a blood trail in case one is needed, which happens frequently. Sometimes even the best bullets veer off course and don't adequately damage the vital organs. Larger bore rifles and broadheads both leave blood trails. Tiny bullets aren't much on breaking bones either. In most states small bore varmint rifles of .224 caliber are outlawed for deer hunting. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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As they should be nationally, IMO. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I didn't mean it in a disparaging way KB, that was not my intent. What I meant was that tests tend to take the open to interpretation, and what ifs out of the conversation, which slows it down alot. Seriously, don't take what I sadi the wrong way. Back in a minute, gotta go shoot real quick. | |||
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JTP, I didn't mean my post as disparaging towards you either.  Yea, I have a misson today too. My 6.5 Grendel arrived, so I'm off to the range as soon as it's daylight. It snowed about two feet this past week, so hopefully the road to the range has been plowed. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Keep up the good work JTP. Choice of caliber for the duty required is the province of the shooter. comparative results within calibre is VERY useful data. comparative results within different media is even more useful. How the results are interpreted & applied to what purpose is the choice of the reloader/shooter. it isn't the whole story , but its a heck of a lot better than rumor. | |||
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If you read the terminal bullet performance thread you will see the brass hollow points like that on the Raptor do incredible damage on the vitals. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Well JTP, I may have some results of my own to post by the end of the season. My buddy wants to use FN SCAR for deer/hog. He brought his 308 SCAR out last time but now he seems determined to use his lighter 223 model. I'm loading some 60 grain partitions for him the next few days. By the way, I really enjoy this thread and your tests. | |||
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Thanks Scott, I appreciate it. BTW, I would REALLY like just a couple of those 60 Partitions to throw in my next test but don't want to buy a whole box. I Don't want you to come up short, but if you end up with a few strays with no home... Now, did someone say different media? How about this. I just got in some of the Cutting Edge Bullets (CEB) you guys have been hearing about in so many of these threads. I just have a few, so I was being real chintzy with them. I loaded one of the 40 ESP Raptors, and one of the BBW#13 Non Cons to shoot at 50 yards just to test for POI and stability. I hated to just "waste" them, so I got a 15" deep cardboard box, put a trash bag in it, and filled it with water as a trap to try and stop one. Remember, NONE of my test bullets have gone deeper than 11.5" in wet newsprint. I took the 40, and cranked it into the box. All hell broke loose, and I saw dust spurt behind the box. The bullet went through 15" of water and straight out the back. Later, in the wet newsprint tests, all three of the 40's stopped in about 8.5" to 9" of media. In other words, all the guys saying water is better, well, in this case a bullet goes probably twice as far. So take my test numbers and double them, which is what I have been saying all along for flesh. The quartering shot on my doe last week had a penetration of about 14 inches through two ribs and a leg bone, tested value for that bullet was about 9", once again, comparable to the double number I have quoted. | |||
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577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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PM me your address. I have some 65 Gamekings you can test as well. | |||
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That 40 grain Raptor is ferocious! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Something that is an important aspect of terminal performance is not just depth of penetration but wound channel. Of all the bullets tested the non con hollow point brass bullets do the most damage in tests and game. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Okay, all that may look a little confusing, so let me give the Readers Digest condensed version. Boomy cross posted for me from the terminal ballistics thread so I wouldn't have to type so much. I was concerned about stability in my 1 in 12 twist, which is why I did the initial test where I shot at 50 yards in water. Both the 40 ESP Raptor and the BBW#13 55 grain Non Con looked stable there, even though the JBL ballistics calculator showed the 55 wouldn't be stable. I moved to 100 yards and shot into wet newsprint, I will get to penetration results in the next post. What you see above here with these targets is basically what I found out about the stability and POI. In a nutshell the 40 Raptor is stable in my 1 in 12 with no tip, I haven't tried it with the tip because I have so few of them. The 55 is slightly unstable though. groups opened up some and I could see a slight egg shape to the entry holes in the target. Also, in the terminal test two of the three 55's turned sideway at the end, also showing instability. The 55 should be great in a 1 in 9, I would love to see a 50-53 that would be stable in a 1 in 12. So anyways, that should have everyone caught up. | |||
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We need to get you some more bullets 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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