Those 40 grain raptors will lose a lot of velocity without the tip and the damage pattern is different with and without the tip so keep that in mind in the results and if possible maybe shoot the 40's at 50 yards or less. The 40 grain Raptor should be stable with the tip I imagine with the 1 in 12 twist.
Thanks for the tests!

Now penetration tests. I shot 3 of the 40 Raptors, three of the 55 BBW#13 Non Cons, and 2 of my 60 grain Nosler Solid Base bullets as "control."

I don't have, and can't post, pictures from the house here so you will have to go by descriptions. At any rate, the BB#13 55 grain shows the classic "star" pattern posted by Micheal in all of his threads and pictures. Go look at that thread, the damage, and his description of it, and that is what I got. No need for me to post pics, they are for all intents and purposes the same as his. Petals sheared about 2-2.5 inches, and I picked them all out around 4". Nasty, they did alot of damage.

My 40 ESP Raptors did better than Micheals though. The petals on his stayed close to center, but mine spread out more. Not quite like the 55's, they were more pronounced, but you could still see it. Once again. 2.5 to 4 inches in the media was devastating.

My control rounds of the old Nosler 60 solid base weren't bad though. Wound track length and volume were comparable to the 40, even though there were some differences. The Nosler was a little more gradual in and out, but the base of the 40 was probably tougher. Neither could compare with the 55. It was a beast. The 55 is the best bullet I have tested, hands down, no BS.

Penetration:

40 ESP Raptor, average 8.75"
60 Nosler SB, average 9.75"
55 BBW#13 NC average 11.5"

I would take the 55 over a Barnes any day. IMO the 40 just needs a little more weight.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
We need to get you some more bullets

I got paper, I got doe tags, and I don't turn down anything free. Make me a 50-53 BBW#13 Non Con that will stabilize in a 1 in 12 and we are in bidniz bro. Cats meow.

There should be a 40 and 50 grain raptor as well as the 55 non con.
Pick your poison for the cart and victim. It will be great having all options.
The 40 grain Raptor will be awesome as a self defense bullet, small to medium size game bullet but the tests show it should be capable of deer size game. The 50 should be that and more. Considering the weight of the 40 grain raptor after petal sheet is amazing. Using the 40 grain as the flat point and you should get about 25" of penetration if that's your goal. Looking forward to all your tests and post mortem deer results.

JTP,
Very nice reports. Thanks for sharing.

Boomy,
If there going to be multiple weights per caliber perhaps Dan needs to post a minimum velocity or twist rate for each bullet. It would be nice to have the Tipped ESP in heavier weights work in all factory twist rifles but perhaps we should just bite the bullet and make some heavier weights that require faster twist rates to use. Just a thought.

quote:

I don't have, and can't post, pictures from the house here so you will have to go by descriptions. At any rate, the BB#13 55 grain shows the classic "star" pattern posted by Micheal in all of his threads and pictures. Go look at that thread, the damage, and his description of it, and that is what I got. No need for me to post pics, they are for all intents and purposes the same as his. Petals sheared about 2-2.5 inches, and I picked them all out around 4". Nasty, they did alot of damage.

JTP, the least I can do is show some photos for you guys, that is not an issue.

I tested the .224 40 gr ESP Raptor a few days ago in both 223 Remington and 223 WSSM. I did not test the 55 gr ESP Raptor as it was too long, not stable even in 1:9 twist. Now the Raptor is a different bullet than the standard BBW#13 NonCons or solids. Raptors are BBW#13s NonCon one side, Solid the other side if needed or desired.

The BBW#13 NonCon in .223 was done because of the tremendous success of these bullets in Big Bore rifles for Dangerous Game. We found that this bullet operates the same, small bore, large bore, medium bores pretty much the same. I have worked with all of them here from .366 caliber up to .620 caliber, and all have been successful both in the test work and all the field work which is growing extensively.

The 55 BBW#13 NonCon is teetering on the edge of stability in 1:12 twist rates, excellent in 1:9 and 1:10. I have a M700 old one, told it's 1:12, it shoots the 55 BBW#13s in a hole at 50 yds, but if you add the hi BC tip to it, it's sideways at 50 yds. We are working on these and will sort the weights out. Terminal performance, not an issue at all once stability is established.

Here is what the 223 Remington test looked like with the .224 40 gr ESP Raptor.















And here at higher velocity in the 223 WSSM.










Now as you may notice that the higher velocity actually lost some penetration with the solid end of the Raptor. This comes as no surprise as at these impact velocities the nose is being deformed and when that happens with ANY solid, any caliber, any weight, stability is sacrificed at that point. What we have found with small bore impact is that 2800 fps or so is about optimum, moving above that may in some cases buy some depth of penetration, but at the risk of nose deformity and instability.

We are busy working our way through the calibers which will include .243, .257, .264 .277, .284 and so forth all the way to .510 caliber.

Michael

Okay, two does down this morning with the 40 ESP Raptor. I was shooting a couple on MLD tags for one of the guys at work who wanted some meat. He puts in an order for "tender" so I shoot him small ones. He doesn't like the old ones.

So, first one was about as close to the same shot as you can get to the first doe I shot this year. Only difference was the shot was R to L, not L to R. She ran maybe 15-20 yards before going down. Broke two ribs going in, made one heck of a mess, broke a rib going out, nicked the shoulder and the bullet is still in there somewhere. My guy is supposed to save it for me when he butchers it. All in all nearly the exact same performance as the 60 Solid Base, but in a bullet that weighs 20 grains less. Pretty impressive, really. I would say depth was somewhat deeper due to a harder angle, and initial damage was somewhat more impressive as well.

I wish I could have paid more attention to the internal organs as I was field dressing her, but I had a slight problem. I am allergic to deer hair, not horribly so or anything, but my eyes are very sensitive to it. The wind got up and blew some up into my right eye as I was dressing the first deer, by the time I was on this one I was pretty much just holding one eye shut and using the other. Depth perception sucks that way, had to drive home like that. I'm fine now that I washed it out, but anyways...

The other deer we aren't getting any bullet out of, it is clear and gone. It was tricky getting her because she was spooked from the first shot and my angle was bad. I took her a couple inches too far forward and turned my vital shot into a base of the neck shot. I didn't hit any vitals but broke the onside shoulder and blew out the throat and jugular. She depressurized fast and bled out, medical shock. She was confused, ran right at me for about 35 yards and piled up right about 15 yards from my treestand. That bullet was pretty impressive, even had one of the petals make it's own exit wound through the skin. So, even on a bad shot, it was a one shot kill that needed no follow up.

.223 count this year so far, 3 rounds expended, three dead does.

Thanks for the report!
Yes those 40 grain Raptors seem capable of deer slaying. One thing that seems constant is the damage these bullets do causing a quicker death and making a marginal shot deadly due to the petal fragments that penetrate well. Lead and copper seem to round off while brass stays jagged and sharp. Again thanks for the report

I made a mistake earlier when I said the shot was reversed, it wasn't. Got to thinking about that this evening on the stand and realized I was wrong. And I did look at the innards in the gutpile when I went back out this afternoon. The core of the bullet barely grazed the top of the heart, but interestingly enough, there were three othe holes lower down in the heart from petals. After seeing that I would have to give the nod to the Raptor over the 1/3 heavier Nosler.

Now, something else I thought of this afternoon on the stand. Once again, penetration in flesh was 1.8 to 2x what we see in newspaper. Now, lets correlate that to the petals. If they shear at 2 and stop at 4 in newspaper, does that mean in flesh the zone is more like shear at 4 and stop at 8? that seemed alot closer to what I observed today in flesh. The heart was probably 7-8" in from the bullet strike, yet had 3 clearly defined petal cuts in it. The neck shot had one petal exit too, through skin. Makes you think.

I need to shoot more deer now that I know more what to look for. Got skunked tonight, dang full moon. I hate a full moon the way Micheal hates leopards.

Very Excellent JTP! Not bad for a little pill like that! Damned things are wicked, from .224 all the way to .620!

Good work here JTP.

How does one enhance a Cartridge? How does one enhance a Rifle? Velocity? No....

It's about the bullet people--The bullet does the heavy lifting. Everything is about the Bullet, all else is moot!

How many times do you hear, What Rifle is the Best for So and So? What Cartridge is the best for so and so? It does not matter, if you don't have a proper bullet, it's a moot point!

Michael

That tiny raptor with only 20 grains after petal sheer is ferocious!
There is a "circle of death" with them. With the petals reaching the vitals this is good news.
Were the shots taken with or without the tip?
The tip changes the dispersion and how deep the sheer is. Without the tip the fragments stay closer to the solid shaft and with the tip spread out more and disperse sooner.

No tip.

Well shooting deer size game with the 40 it's probably a better idea to do more centralized damage.

Why are you shooting deer with them? You should know better. There is no deer pictured on the box. I saw some Winchester ammo that had a pony and rider--I'm confused does that mean pony express and those bullets used if you go postal?

It's the bullets
I'd shoot a deer with a 22 Hornet and the 40 grain raptor @ 2700 if it was legal.
These brass bullets defy conventional bullet rules.
For the record
The damage done was from a bullet with a .114 SD
I'll say it...
Brass is better

OMG another magic bullet.

Magic? No. Pretty dang good? Yes. But it should be at nearly a dollar a whack. It is a neat bullet with interesting performance characteristics. The Barnes is a dang good bullet too, at about half the cost. Can't really knock it either, it works. I really doubt anyone was suprised to see them perform the way they did, compared to the others in the test.

But what I started this thread for, besides just general knowledge to satisfy myself, was to find some good run of the mill bullets, that either by design or by accident, would preform well without breaking the bank. I think I have shown there are some of those as well, and I would not feel handicapped with them in the least.

Over the next week or so I plan to take the thread back in that direction. I have some more bullets people are sending me, and I am going to try and pick some others up later this week when I get by the shop where I buy my supplies. My goal is to identify bullets that if you are so inclined, you could feel comfortable carrying into the field for deer size game. Know their characteristics, so you can make an informed decision as to what you should try with them, and what not to.

I am also going to try and start getting some of this info together on a spreadshet, it is kinda becoming hard for me to keep track of. When i get that done maybe one of you more computer savvy guys can post that up for me if i e-mail it to you.

I may even load up some of the better ones in my Swift and see what they do at the higher speeds. We'll see. Just trying to keep things in perspective here.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
OMG another magic bullet.

have you read the terminal bullet performance thread? Yes its 205 pages long but very good. You will see that the brass bullets there have put performed in tests and game by a significant margin all others on the market in terms of depth of penetration, damage and straight line penetration. Science and physics not magic sir. Please read it if you have not. Tested hundreds of times.

I hear the cost thing. That is one of the biggest complaints but in perspective this is not your average bullet. I view bullets as tools. Sometimes you want the best in case of hunting. Bullets are one of the cheapest parts of the hunt and one of the most important. Value is placed by the shooter. these are not paper punching bullets or low cost ones but these will be my choice for almost all my hunting. some want cheap but good and that is not a bad thing. Remember these are precision lathe turned bullets with top performance and those are not cheap things but knowing the outcome i'll spend twice as much to shoot these on hunts. We have here another choice of a tool. That is a good thing. I like the nosler 60 grain but i like the Raptor more.

True, but I'll throw out another scenario. Good friend of mine who is running our doe management association here, last weekend his fiance shot her buck. Pretty decent, high 140's. Since then he has cut her loose on MLDP does. She put down 3 Friday night, 4 Saturday morning, and 5 Saturday night. Don't know what she shot today. He says she is just getting started though. They probably have WAY more tags than me. Don't need something high $$$ for that.

For my culling, I see no sense in bullets that cost so much just to whack and stack 80-120 lb does. .223 works good for that. But what if that big 250 lb buck I have been looking for walks out? Sure would be nice to have a second clip with good bullets in it in case I need deep penetration and the ability to break a heavier shoulder or something. Just like any shooting, match the bullet to the job.

There are times top shelf stuff is nice, and times just plain old bullets work.

Yes agreed in culling situations all you care about is a humanely dead deer. its good to have choices.

quote:

In most states small bore varmint rifles of .224 caliber are outlawed for deer hunting.

Not true. Most states have no restrictions (where rifles are legal) on what caliber a hunter uses on deer. A few states do attempt to describe minimum caliber (Wyoming uses an arbitrary .23" caliber), and a few like Texas prohibit rimfires (as if the method of setting off the powder charge was in some way related to the cartridge's ability to kill deer). And Colorado attempts (not too effectively) to describe acceptable cartridges for game animals via the dimensions of the brass. But most states make no attempt to regulate the ammunition that a deer hunter uses.

Centerfire .22's are very popular in Texas for deer. For one reason, they're popular for coyotes, which are year-around targets, allowing a one-gun hunter to use only his .22 centerfire. Texas whitetails tend to be somewhat smaller on average than those of more northern climes and present little challenge for a .22 centerfire.

I appreciate JTP's reporting. But the bottom line is, most any bullet from a .22 centerfire placed in the rib cage of a whitetail is going to kill it, and do so quickly enough that recovering it is no challenge. In fact, whitetails shot in the thorax with a .22 centerfire almost always succumb more quickly than those shot similarly with a .30-30.

StonecreekII--I'm betting heavy you been there done that.

And I'll second that motion. Fact is, it just really isn't that hard to kill a deer. Like stonecreek said, most any .224 bullet throught he ribcage will do it. After doing my tests, there are some I would stay away from for sure. I'll take that one step further and say there are several economical bullets that are ahead of the others. But IMO, the more I test these bullets, the more capable across the board the .223 seems to be.

It's really fairly simple, any 223 that is capable of penetrating, even from ugly angles, into the vitals will do the job. I don't hunt deer, and never even shot one with a 223, so I really don't have dog in this one. I would not use a varmint bullet, nor a Nosler Ballistic tip or such for that sort of job. There are now a few good 223 bullets that will work, my opinion with the new BBW#13s being at the top of the list in the penetration department. I like penetration, even better when they exit! Penetration is the key to all of it. Followed closely by trauma inflicted, without the sacrifice of penetration.

Cost? I don't know what the costs of the .224 Raptors will be yet. That has not been determined. So wait and see before making that judgment. Unless Boomy knows?

JTP, how many deer would you shoot in a year? 50? 100?

Michael

I read recently of a 350 Lb hog taken with a 223.
That's impressive. Hogs are aplenty and a 22 bullet that is Hog tough and penetrates well is an interesting niche. Maybe a Rambo boar is a better standard for killing with a 22 cal bullet than a Bambi deer. I think some Boar hunting with the 50 grain raptor would be quite enlightening.

Okay, got some more bullets in the mail today. TEACUM sent me some 55 grain Nosler Solid Base, will be real interesting to shoot them against the 60 grain to see if there is any difference. Plainsman 456 sent me some old 55 grain Nosler Zippedos and some 55 TTSX. The Zippedos will be cool just to test something like that, first ones I had ever seen in person. The 55 TTSX are really long, don't know if they will stabilize in my 12 twist or not. They are longer than the Non Cons I shot, so it looks pretty iffy to me.

Now is a good time to throw out some thanks to all that have sent me bullets for testing. The Back 40 really deserves some credit here. He sent me the 64 Winchesters, 60 Solid Base, 40 NBT, 60 Hornady HP, and the 63 Sierra SMP. Over and above the call of duty for sure. Micheal458 sent me the 40 Raptors and the 55 BBW-13 Non Cons. I may have a few others coming from another place or two as well. Once again, thanks everyone for the support on this! Anyone that wants one of their bullets thrown in, just pm me for my address and I will do it.

May be Friday or even first of next week before I can run the next test. Busy tonight and then my son has a HS football playoff game tomorrow night. I'll get them in there though. Spreadsheet is coming along good too, gonna have to have someone post that up at some point.

There is a bit of a rumor rolling around, something about a 50 gr BBW#13 NonCon, with tips, fit in AR magazines, should do rather well in 1:12 twists, super in 1:9, just heard a rumor that there was going to be a run of those done very soon and available. I have a few of those set aside for myself, I will most certainly send a few of those your way JTP, as this is a production run, I will send more than just a few!
HEH....

Of course, this is just a rumor!

Michael

Gumboot,
Anytime you use a heavy constructed bullet designed for deep penetration on big heavy animals that is the results you should expect on a deer..I have shot a ton or two of plainsgame for campmeat at our concessions with such calibers as the .416, 404, 458 Lott and some of the big double calibers and the result is always a good blood trail for about 50 to 100 yards. Some fall at the shot but most do not.

By the same token a 223 will violently expand and most of the time you get an instant kill..HOWEVER if they run you may not be able to find them as they bleed internally and in some cases the find a hidy hole and your screwed shoed and tatooed.

Like most things in life its a trade off so when using light calibers its best to use them in more open country where you can see them run and at least have a good idea where to look.