MickinColo,

quote:

How is a .224 superior over a .243 for deer hunting?

How about if the 224 is placed correctly and the 243 is not? How about if the 224 is using a premium bullet and the 243 is using a varmint bullet?

If everything else is equal, including good shot placement. I honestly don't think there is much difference between the two.

We've covered:
1. How many deer I've lost and had to chase down.
2. How many deer MickinColo has killed using 22 centerfire rifles.
3. Colorado regs
4. Elephants with a 22lr
5. 45-70's
6. What we should recommend to hunters.

Let's get back on to the original question posed.

quote:

I was wondering what kind of penetration can be expected form them. Assuming a "Deer" type bullet is used. Such as the 55 gr. TBBC, 60 gr. Partition, 65 gr. Sierra, 70 gr. Barnes and the like. Complete penetration on say a double lung broadside shot? I know this all dependent on what the bullets encounters. What are your experiences?

I listed my experience with right around three dozen killed deer. I have never recovered a bullet with varying shot angles from 40-400 yards. What more can I say? The bullets have encountered heavy bone and slipped through the ribs, some have entered on the shoulder and some have exited the neck. Some have broken spinal vertebrae and blown through the sternum.

I have zero hesitation in suggesting a 22 caliber rifle for deer. Especially if it is easier for them shoot accurately.

Perry listed his extensive experience, which makes mine pale by comparison.

I understand what you are trying to tell everyone. But it comes down to the nut pulling the trigger. There are clowns out there that shouldn't be hunting. The cartridge they choose is probably the least of their worries.
But does it really matter what cartridge they are using? A clown is a clown. Bad shot placement is bad shot placement. If shooting a light recoiling rifle helps shot placement, I am all for it.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Anyone want to bet me that should I shoot once that I do not kill with one shot?

I could bet that if you shot head on at a really nice buck late in the afternoon say 80 yards in heavy brush looking into the setting sun that you would wish you had something more substantial. You can't always take deer in the sniper mode. Shoot one on the edge of a field and he may run 100 yards into heavy brush and jump a fence. All you have done is feed the coyotes.

your precambrian objections are noted!

Hey Mick, You have been doing right well. As a general observation, it seems the folks using the 22cal Cartridges always go to the old "I can shoot and you can't" ruse to justify Inadequate Cartridges. Simply indicates vast amounts of inexperience.

However, in a different, but similar thread of yesteryear, the 22cal users brought something to my attention that I can agree with.

If the Game is under 50#, a 22cal is Adequate for most shots people would consider a high percentage Clean Kill shot, if the proper Bullet is selected.

I do not support Politically Correct Bullets(PCBs) which the Ultra-Leftist Radical-Liberal fools will use to eliminate most practice shooting and plinking due to the cost. I see a lot of PCBs mentioned in the thread, and they are playing right into the Trap.

And of course the typical response is, "I don't care, I'll use PCBs anyhow."

From 50.000001#<->100#, a 243Win is seriously better than a "I'm a weenie and can't handle Recoil over 6ft-pd, folks."

100.000001#<->150# is handled real well with 7mm rifles, including the easy to shoot 7mm-08 and 7x57.

150.000001# and up gets into 30 cal levels to reduce the Tracking "with perfectly placed shots". And of course, larger Cartridges than the 30cal just reduce the Tracking even more.
-----

Yes indeed folks, I do have ooooodles of experience on 50# critters and though a 22cal will Kill them, a BIGGER Cartridge is always better.

There you go Mick, how to and in the same post. Do you think the Rookies will be upset?

Kinda early to be drinking, eh Hot Core?

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Kinda early to be drinking, eh Hot Core?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Mick, You have been doing right well. As a general observation, it seems the folks using the 22cal Cartridges always go to the old "I can shoot and you can't" ruse to justify Inadequate Cartridges. Simply indicates vast amounts of inexperience.

However, in a different, but similar thread of yesteryear, the 22cal users brought something to my attention that I can agree with.

If the Game is under 50#, a 22cal is Adequate for most shots people would consider a high percentage Clean Kill shot, if the proper Bullet is selected.

I do not support Politically Correct Bullets(PCBs) which the Ultra-Leftist Radical-Liberal fools will use to eliminate most practice shooting and plinking due to the cost. I see a lot of PCBs mentioned in the thread, and they are playing right into the Trap.

And of course the typical response is, "I don't care, I'll use PCBs anyhow."

From 50.000001#<->100#, a 243Win is seriously better than a "I'm a weenie and can't handle Recoil over 6ft-pd, folks."

100.000001#<->150# is handled real well with 7mm rifles, including the easy to shoot 7mm-08 and 7x57.

150.000001# and up gets into 30 cal levels to reduce the Tracking "with perfectly placed shots". And of course, larger Cartridges than the 30cal just reduce the Tracking even more.
-----

Yes indeed folks, I do have ooooodles of experience on 50# critters and though a 22cal will Kill them, a BIGGER Cartridge is always better.

There you go Mick, how to and in the same post. Do you think the Rookies will be upset?

I don’t know about the rookies Hot Core, but you did stir up a big pot of dead horse stew. Lets see how they pick and peck around the meat of the subject.

Last year I took a nice 7 point (8 with a broken tine) West Virginia whitetail with a 6mm Rem. Was loaded with 95 grain Noslers. The rifle is very, very pretty one I will not use too often in the field.

First impact was just behind the right front shoulder at 60 yards. The deer dropped ... and then got back up and started to move slowly off. So I popped him again and he went down for the count.

When I butchered him out, the first round had gone across the chest and into the off side shoulder where it hit the shoulder blade, fully mushroomed with loss of the lead in the nose and stopped.

Second round went all the way through.

I was a little surprised. I think I will try the TSXs sometime in the future.

seen the same thing with a 30-06 and 165 Rem Corelocks. Most times they don't die for a few seconds no matter what you shoot them with.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Mick, You have been doing right well. As a general observation, it seems the folks using the 22cal Cartridges always go to the old "I can shoot and you can't" ruse to justify Inadequate Cartridges. Simply indicates vast amounts of inexperience.

However, in a different, but similar thread of yesteryear, the 22cal users brought something to my attention that I can agree with.

If the Game is under 50#, a 22cal is Adequate for most shots people would consider a high percentage Clean Kill shot, if the proper Bullet is selected.

I do not support Politically Correct Bullets(PCBs) which the Ultra-Leftist Radical-Liberal fools will use to eliminate most practice shooting and plinking due to the cost. I see a lot of PCBs mentioned in the thread, and they are playing right into the Trap.

And of course the typical response is, "I don't care, I'll use PCBs anyhow."

From 50.000001#<->100#, a 243Win is seriously better than a "I'm a weenie and can't handle Recoil over 6ft-pd, folks."

100.000001#<->150# is handled real well with 7mm rifles, including the easy to shoot 7mm-08 and 7x57.

150.000001# and up gets into 30 cal levels to reduce the Tracking "with perfectly placed shots". And of course, larger Cartridges than the 30cal just reduce the Tracking even more.
-----

Yes indeed folks, I do have ooooodles of experience on 50# critters and though a 22cal will Kill them, a BIGGER Cartridge is always better.

There you go Mick, how to and in the same post. Do you think the Rookies will be upset?

I don’t know about the rookies Hot Core, but you did stir up a big pot of dead horse stew. Lets see how they pick and peck around the meat of the subject.

I want one of those six decimal place game scales! Engineers.....sheesh!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I do not support Politically Correct Bullets(PCBs) which the Ultra-Leftist Radical-Liberal fools will use to eliminate most practice shooting and plinking due to the cost. I see a lot of PCBs mentioned in the thread, and they are playing right into the Trap.

Hot Core
To me one of the definitions of a lefty is one who would cram their ideals down others throats despite evidence to the contary...

Kinda puts you, SR4759 and MickinColo in the lefty camp from were I am setting...
Amusing to say the least....

I am not sure if I am a weenie but my 300WSM with 180's kills them no faster than my 30-06 with 165's or .270Win with 130's or my 308 with 150's or my etc. etc. etc.

People just know what they have grown up with. My hunting buddy is the same way, if its not a 30-06 or does not have the nom de plume Magnum attached to it. then it's not strong enough to kill one of our massive 150 pound deer. Problem is not foot pounds of energy its IQ and skill. Dumbaxsses and novices should not shoot deer in the butt with anything but they do so they should butt shoot with a bigger gun I guess, folks that can shoot can shoot deer in the neck, in the spine, in the shoulders, in the chest etc. etc. etc. Head shots my aunt fanny!! Someone tell me why a .22-25 caliber hole thru the lungs and heart is less lethal than a .30 caliber hole thru same??

quote:

Originally posted by Low Wall:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I do not support Politically Correct Bullets(PCBs) which the Ultra-Leftist Radical-Liberal fools will use to eliminate most practice shooting and plinking due to the cost. I see a lot of PCBs mentioned in the thread, and they are playing right into the Trap.

Hot Core
To me one of the definitions of a lefty is one who would cram their ideals down others throats despite evidence to the contary...

Kinda puts you, SR4759 and MickinColo in the lefty camp from were I am setting...
Amusing to say the least....

The political line between far left and far right is not a straight line. It’s a circle with bother extremes meeting in the back. Your right to use marginal equipment on deer is all right with me as long as you don’t leave a bunch of wounded deer wandering around for PETA (more than Left of center and a political force to be dealt with) to take pictures of. Then your choice to use marginal equipment starts cutting into my freedoms with new restrictions on my hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Complete penetration on mule deer is doable with the right bullet and velocity. That is not to say ,however, that it makes it the proper deer rifle. A slow moving FMJ might do it but not destroy much tissue when going through the animal; well placed shot taken into account.
For the average hunter using a 22 caliber rifle on deer is stunt hunting. A fair percentage of 22 officianados talk shot placement than go out and try Texas heart shots on fleeing deer. roger

Yup.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Mick, You have been doing right well. As a general observation, it seems the folks using the 22cal Cartridges always go to the old "I can shoot and you can't" ruse to justify Inadequate Cartridges. Simply indicates vast amounts of inexperience.

However, in a different, but similar thread of yesteryear, the 22cal users brought something to my attention that I can agree with.

If the Game is under 50#, a 22cal is Adequate for most shots people would consider a high percentage Clean Kill shot, if the proper Bullet is selected.

I do not support Politically Correct Bullets(PCBs) which the Ultra-Leftist Radical-Liberal fools will use to eliminate most practice shooting and plinking due to the cost. I see a lot of PCBs mentioned in the thread, and they are playing right into the Trap.

And of course the typical response is, "I don't care, I'll use PCBs anyhow."

From 50.000001#<->100#, a 243Win is seriously better than a "I'm a weenie and can't handle Recoil over 6ft-pd, folks."

100.000001#<->150# is handled real well with 7mm rifles, including the easy to shoot 7mm-08 and 7x57.

150.000001# and up gets into 30 cal levels to reduce the Tracking "with perfectly placed shots". And of course, larger Cartridges than the 30cal just reduce the Tracking even more.
-----

Yes indeed folks, I do have ooooodles of experience on 50# critters and though a 22cal will Kill them, a BIGGER Cartridge is always better.

There you go Mick, how to and in the same post. Do you think the Rookies will be upset?

I don’t know about the rookies Hot Core, but you did stir up a big pot of dead horse stew. Lets see how they pick and peck around the meat of the subject.

I want one of those six decimal place game scales! Engineers.....sheesh!

No you don’t, it’s too confusing.

Hot Core,
I know you have a bunch of real world experience. So I tend to read what you say. I don't agree with everything, but I will read what you have to say and possibly learn from it.

But that post up above is a little off the deep end and all over the place.

Shot placement is important with ANY caliber you shoot. PCB's?? What the heck? A left wing liberal rant? Weight classifications? What the ????

You go on to say a 22 cal will kill them, and a bigger cartridge is always better? So a 22 works, you just don't prefer to use them.

The question is this: What kind of penetration have you seen on deer with premium bullets out of a 22 centerfire?

You must realize that the terrain I hunt, I usually watch my deer tip over, no matter the caliber. Sometimes they run over a hill, or down into a draw, but finding them isn't a problem. It has allowed me to observe a lot of deer and their reaction to being shot with different cartidges.

My 22-250 combination works just fine out here on the western prairie and in the Black Hills National Forest where I do a majority of my hunting. I have never recovered a single bullet from the roughly three dozen deer I have been in on being killed with that combination.

There is no to beat as 22 caliber rifles work for deer and even hogs according to Perry's post. Just because you prefer not use them, doesn't change the fact that they work.

I am not trying to talk anyone into using or not using them. Just sharing my experience with a gentleman that asked about penetration potential on deer with 22 caliber rifles and premium bullets.

Mick jumps in and insuates that I wasn't telling the whole truth by asking about the ones I had to chase down and had lost. Plain and simple that was insulting. Coming from a guy that has ZERO experience with 22 caliber rifles on deer. Enough said.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Wall:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I do not support Politically Correct Bullets(PCBs) which the Ultra-Leftist Radical-Liberal fools will use to eliminate most practice shooting and plinking due to the cost. I see a lot of PCBs mentioned in the thread, and they are playing right into the Trap.

Hot Core
To me one of the definitions of a lefty is one who would cram their ideals down others throats despite evidence to the contary...

Kinda puts you, SR4759 and MickinColo in the lefty camp from were I am setting...
Amusing to say the least....

Call it anything you want Low wall.
But tell me where YOU draw the line and become the lefty to someone shooting something even more ridiculous than a .22?

I can put any .22 shooter into a hunting situation where his rifle will work fine and 5 minutes later it will stink.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
I've shot smaller mulie bucks with 22 caliber bullets with impressive performance. I've used the Nosler BT and the Barnes X with similar results... bang...dead. Dead is Dead is Dead.
A review of my records show 7 kills in 7 shots.

Penetration is hard to quantify as all of the bullets that I can remember where complete pass throughs with devastating wound channels.

Just to reanswer the original question again, but alas I would defer to perry with his EXPERIENCE of 65-100 DEER taken with a .224.

I started using my varmint rifles for deer hunting purposes around 7-8 years ago and wish that Idaho would permit the taking of more than one deer.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
Hot Core,
I know you have a bunch of real world experience. So I tend to read what you say. I don't agree with everything,

I agree with your position. Everyone's experience is different and people should make their own decisions.

quote:

Shot placement is important with ANY caliber you shoot.

Completely agree. And at the same time, a larger Hole with more destruction along the Bullet's path ends up Killing much quicker "overall". I'm not talking about a single Kill where the Game simply drops where it is shot. I'm primarily focused on the ones that do not do that.

quote:

PCB's?? What the heck? A left wing liberal rant?

I have no idea what Left wing liberal rant has to do with what I said. I am sure the Ultra-Leftist Radical-Liberals are chipping away at every corner of Shooting and Hunting as we know it. Anyone supporting their efforts is working against Shooting and Hunting as sure as clinton is slime.

There is a post on Big Game about "Voluntarily using PCBs" to Hunt with this year. It continues to encircle us as a group and tighten the noose. As for me, if I can shoot good old Lead for another 15-20years, it won't matter at all. However, for you youngsters, it will make the difference between going to Practice/Plink or sit on your billfold.

Do you think a lot of folks Practice/Plink as much when each Bullet is $1 compared to when it is $0.04?

quote:

Weight classifications? What the ????

Simply sharing my observations based on a considerable number of actual Kills. It does not force anyone to follow those thoughts, but hopefully they will do as you did, think about it. If you shoot enough Game, with enough different Calibers, I would believe you(or anyone else) would come to the same conclusions.

quote:

You go on to say a 22 cal will kill them, and a bigger cartridge is always better? So a 22 works, you just don't prefer to use them.

Not quite, but real close. I absolutely love to shoot my 20" S&S 223Rem M7. Very accurate, easy to tote, and cheap to feed. On dogs who people let roam freely, coyotes and other varmints, it does right well on all the shots I'm willing to try. It is my caliber of choice for the vast majority of my time afield, just looking around.

quote:

The question is this: What kind of penetration have you seen on deer with premium bullets out of a 22 centerfire?

Now you should know that "I", and the people I Hunt with, don't shoot Deer under 50#. So, I'd have no reason to have seen a Deer shot with any 22cal. However, if that is what you all want to Kill, it will make the toting much easier.

quote:

You must realize that the terrain I hunt, I usually watch my deer tip over, no matter the caliber. Sometimes they run over a hill, or down into a draw, but finding them isn't a problem. It has allowed me to observe a lot of deer and their reaction to being shot with different cartidges.

Depending on the time of the year, what crops are afield, and where I actually happen to be, I've seen those same conditions. Also have seen where a 200# Deer is laying directly in front of you in a 4.5' tall Bean Row and it can't be seen, it must be felt with your foot. Or laying 6' inside a Man-Eating Brier Patch and you can not see any sign of it. In the latter situations, Large Entrance and Exit Holes seem to be a significant advantage for "me".

quote:

My 22-250 combination works just fine out here on the western prairie and in the Black Hills National Forest where I do a majority of my hunting. I have never recovered a single bullet from the roughly three dozen deer I have been in on being killed with that combination.

Did you find any of them? Glad it has worked out so well for you.

quote:

There is no to beat as 22 caliber rifles work for deer and even hogs according to Perry's post. Just because you prefer not use them, doesn't change the fact that they work.

I agree. The point is which is better?

quote:

I am not trying to talk anyone into using or not using them. Just sharing my experience with a gentleman that asked about penetration potential on deer with 22 caliber rifles and premium bullets.

That was the exact same thing I was doing.

quote:

Mick jumps in and insuates that I wasn't telling the whole truth by asking about the ones I had to chase down and had lost. Plain and simple that was insulting. Coming from a guy that has ZERO experience with 22 caliber rifles on deer. Enough said.

I got a slighlty different reading from his post. Seemed like he was simply asking for additional information about the Kills and if "any" were not recovered. Of course, Mick is pretty wild and not nearly as Silver Tongued as anyone who would "attempt to Kill" something over 50# with a weenie 22cal, or a PCB - neither am I.

But, I'd wager a box of good-old, never-fail, always-reliable, amazingly-accurate, non-Politically Correct, Lead Core Bullets that you, Mick and I would enjoy a Hunt together, even if teanscum is your hero.
-----

Just sharing my experience too. Use what you want of it.

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
Hot Core,
I know you have a bunch of real world experience. So I tend to read what you say. I don't agree with everything, but I will read what you have to say and possibly learn from it.

But that post up above is a little off the deep end and all over the place.

Shot placement is important with ANY caliber you shoot. PCB's?? What the heck? A left wing liberal rant? Weight classifications? What the ????

You go on to say a 22 cal will kill them, and a bigger cartridge is always better? So a 22 works, you just don't prefer to use them.

The question is this: What kind of penetration have you seen on deer with premium bullets out of a 22 centerfire?

You must realize that the terrain I hunt, I usually watch my deer tip over, no matter the caliber. Sometimes they run over a hill, or down into a draw, but finding them isn't a problem. It has allowed me to observe a lot of deer and their reaction to being shot with different cartidges.

My 22-250 combination works just fine out here on the western prairie and in the Black Hills National Forest where I do a majority of my hunting. I have never recovered a single bullet from the roughly three dozen deer I have been in on being killed with that combination.

There is no to beat as 22 caliber rifles work for deer and even hogs according to Perry's post. Just because you prefer not use them, doesn't change the fact that they work.

I am not trying to talk anyone into using or not using them. Just sharing my experience with a gentleman that asked about penetration potential on deer with 22 caliber rifles and premium bullets.

Mick jumps in and insuates that I wasn't telling the whole truth by asking about the ones I had to chase down and had lost. Plain and simple that was insulting. Coming from a guy that has ZERO experience with 22 caliber rifles on deer. Enough said.

I apologize if my question offended you. It was just a question but I should have worded it differently.

Although I haven’t shot any deer with a 224 caliber rifle I have shot deer with rifles in 243, 270 Win, 7mm Rem, 308, 300 Win, and 45/70. I have other rifles in other calibers that haven’t shot a deer either but have shot antelope and elk. All these rifles have one thing in common that my 22 Hornet, 223, 22-250, or my 220 Swift doesn’t. They’re all legal to hunt deer with in Colorado.

When I’m hunting deer, the deer is my secondary target, my primary target is elk. The last couple of years I haven’t even bought a deer
tag because CWD has pretty much wiped out the deer population in my elk hunting area.

Because I usually hunt deer and elk at the same time, I’d pick a rifle with more punch than a 22 even if they were legal.

Surely you’re not a proponent of elk hunting with the .224 caliber too?

While I’m apologizing to SDHunter, I’ll also apologize for my comments about the average hunter. I’ve been hunting with a group of guys going on 15 years now, they’re all “average hunters”. God loves them, I love them too but everything I said about the average hunter applies to these guys and they know it. But for some reason they haven’t driven me off yet even though I harp on these guys Constantly to do more practice shooting than they do.

Shot her this morning with my deuce-six, aka 22-6mm. It shoots a 70gr TSX at 3650fps. She was on a dead run when I hit her behind the shoulder. She wrecked in a huge heap, regained her legs after about 15 seconds while we where trying to sort out the rest of the herd. She went in the brush about 30 yards and that was the end of it. The bullet was under the hide on the off side expanded to .47 cal. That's about 20" of penetration through a 350 pound animal, NOT BAD for a varmint rifle.

Perry





Nilgai

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Shot her this morning with my deuce-six, aka 22-6mm. It shoots a 70gr TSX at 3650fps. She was on a dead run when I hit her behind the shoulder. She wrecked in a huge heap, regained her legs after about 15 seconds while we where trying to sort out the rest of the herd. She went in the brush about 30 yards and that was the end of it. The bullet was under the hide on the off side expanded to .47 cal. That's about 20" of penetration through a 350 pound animal, NOT BAD for a varmint rifle.

Perry





Nilgai

Interesting.

MickinColo,

quote:

Surely you’re not a proponent of elk hunting with the .224 caliber too?

No. I prefer my 338-06 for that duty, but have used my 270's on a couple. I just don't have the experience on elk. Actually I have spent more time chasing them with my longbow, than any other weapon.

quote:

But, I'd wager a box of good-old, never-fail, always-reliable, amazingly-accurate, non-Politically Correct, Lead Core Bullets that you, Mick and I would enjoy a Hunt together, even if teanscum is your hero.

I am not into hero worship, but I think I could enjoy a hunt with you and MickinColo.

You make a very good point about the thick cover. The terrain one hunts in should play into the cartridge decision.

I do a alot of bowhunting. So I am very familiar with bloodtrails. It is nice to have two holes and a lot of blood leaking out.

Perry that is a really good stunt, since most of the ranches down there don't allow their clients to hunt Nilgia with anythihg less than 7mm Rem Mag.

Just a question, how many "Normal" hunters would you allow on that place shooting the same thing you are?

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Shot her this morning with my deuce-six, aka 22-6mm. It shoots a 70gr TSX at 3650fps. She was on a dead run when I hit her behind the shoulder. She wrecked in a huge heap, regained her legs after about 15 seconds while we where trying to sort out the rest of the herd. She went in the brush about 30 yards and that was the end of it. The bullet was under the hide on the off side expanded to .47 cal. That's about 20" of penetration through a 350 pound animal, NOT BAD for a varmint rifle.

Perry





Nilgai

Nice picture and great shot, for a stunt!!! Just kidding.

It does rankle the old lads when you show them something like this success and they can't pass up the chance to throw in a dig. Perhaps it's jealousy of your success and what the heck, you did it with a varmint rifle!! They get a little confused and call anything of real world EXPERIENCE a stunt,especially if it goes against their opinions gathered around the campfire or at the sporting goods store.

That round sounds interesting and appears to have a lot of potential to perform that well on a critter that size. But wait you may have violated Hot Sh#t's 50 lb rule. Watch out for the wrath to follow.

Nice shot on a great critter, keep it up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice shot Perry! Nice trophy well done! On the other hand according to the membership that still believes in a pre Copernican universe that animal would be MUCH MORE DEAD if you had only used a bigger gun. Go here for more information:

http://www.highdown.reading.sc...lendars/patrick.html

Crazyhorse

I would not recommend that normal hunters shoot at running game, I usually don't, on game animals, but in this case we were in a burned area that was miles of open country. If the shot turned out to be marginal we had lots of other shooters and area to sort her out.

Given the opportunity for shot placement and proper surroundings I WOULD recommend any normal hunter use this round on these critters. She was no more or less dead than the other 100s of cows we have shot with 308's, 7x57's, 7mag's, 338wm, etc... One thing about these critters they don't leave blood trails and can go a long way after a well placed heart/lung so where they are standing determines shot placement. If they are in thick brush it is strictly neck shots for me, regardless of caliber.

Mind you we are shooting cows not bulls. Bulls are a whole other level of tough, 160gr TSX's, NP, A-Frames, etc, are the starting point and really probably a little on the light side for me.

Bottom line is I would hunting anything big with this set up over a .308/30-06/300wm with a ballistic tip. Bullet construction and weight proves to be more important than caliber any day of the week. AND shot placement is crucial REGARDLESS of bullet diameter...PERIOD!!!!!

Perry

I apologise if my question came across as making lite of what you did, that was not my intention, and you did confirm my assumption.

The shot was made under somewhat of a controlled situation and the animal was not going to be lost should the bullet have failed to reach its mark.

Also, you would not recommend "Normal"hunters from attempting the same thing, shooting at running game regardless of the caliber used.

That brings the conversation, in my point of view back to the basic original premise of are the 224's something the "Occasional" hunter should be heading to the deer stand with, simply because experienced hunters/shooters kill thousands of deer and other game with them yearly.

I agree with folks that have said the lighter gun/lighter recoil aspect of the 224's might make a person a better shot, but as I stated elsewhere, and it is just my opinion, but for the occasional/average/normal hunter-shooter, I feel that the 224's and the 30 mag's and bigger are firearms that need to be graduated to, after gaining experience and ability with calibers that are a little more forgiving on less that perfectly placed shots.

That is a great looking animal and I wished that I could get a chance to hunt one, even a cow.

Crazyhorse
Don't apologize, no offense taken. Truth be told I probably could not pull it off again!

Agreed. New shooters should gain some experience before graduating to a specialty caliber.

But I will restate that this bullet, put where it is supposed to regardless of shooter experience, will kill.

Perry

This topic comes up every year, and it pains me to watch the insults fly....

In my years of hunting and shooting varmints, I have come to some very simple conclusions....

A man who knows game anatomy, and is a good enough hunter to know shot placement is what really kills, more than velocity or foot pounds..

Well that man can take game with about any caliber readily available or handloaded...

he understands its limitations, yet knows what it is capable of... gained from experience of using it and shooting it...

so it is not the cartridge so much as it is the hunter's hunting skills and abilities.... baaed on realistic attitudes, personal confidence in himself and his equipment.. all gained from experience in the field....

quote:

But I will restate that this bullet, put where it is supposed to regardless of shooter experience, will kill.

No arguement there, but that is true of any bullet.

I guess my thoughts on the subject, and they probably are only valid to me, is that a close miss with a 224 and the same miss with a 3O caliber or larger will have different outcomes in some cases, especially in terms of entrance and exit wounds and, and I really hate this term, the amount of trauma inflicted upon the critter.

I think someone mentioned earlier Remington Core Loct ammo.

Lora uses it in here 257 Robert's because we were gifted with about 100 rounds of factory loads after an aquaintence sold his 257 Robert's.

I prefer shooting Barnes "X" bullets, but after I could not get 115 grain Barnes TSX to group out of her rifle we went to using the 117 grain factory stuff and after about a dozen one shot kill white tail does I can't really say that I am unhappy with the performance of that round.

In my case, as a teen ager growing up in the 60's, I got bit in the ass real hard by Elmer Keith and have never recovered.

Seafire2, my hat is off to you Sir, that is a damn good post and in my opinion sums up the whole concept of learning the limitations of both the firearm and the person using it.

quote:

No. I prefer my 338-06 for that duty, but have used my 270's on a couple. I just don't have the experience on elk. Actually I have spent more time chasing them with my longbow, than any other weapon.

I did that myself for a number of years.

Seafire2 and Crazyhorse

agreed

Sounds like we all should get together and kill some big stuff with small calibers and heavy bullets

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Sounds like we all should get together and kill some big stuff with small calibers and heavy bullets Perry

Oh POOPY roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Sounds like we all should get together and kill some big stuff with small calibers and heavy bullets Perry

Oh POOPY roger

Yup. It looks like a nice little love fest going on now.

I thought we would have heard from the guy that killed the zebra at 300 yards with a .223 by now.