The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers Penatration of 22 cal. "Deer Bullets"Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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While I don't use a 22 centerfire for deer hunting, I was wondering what kind of penetration can be expected form them. Assuming a "Deer" type bullet is used. Such as the 55 gr. TBBC, 60 gr. Partition, 65 gr. Sierra, 70 gr. Barnes and the like. Complete penetration on say a double lung broadside shot? I know this all dependent on what the bullets encounters. What are your experiences? PaPa 260 | ||
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 Complete penetration on mule deer is doable with the right bullet and velocity. That is not to say ,however, that it makes it the proper deer rifle.  A slow moving FMJ might do it but not destroy much tissue when going through the animal; well placed shot taken into account. For the average hunter using a 22 caliber rifle on deer is stunt hunting. A fair percentage of 22 officianados talk shot placement than go out and try Texas heart shots on fleeing deer.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I've shot one mature whitetail doe with a Winchester 64 gr powerpoint from a 22 inch 223 1:9 boltgun. At ~200 yards the bullet penetrated both shoulders without striking leg bones, punched ribs coming and going, pulped the front lobes of the lungs where they surround the heart, severed the plumbing from the top of the heart. The bullet exited. A mist of red painted the snow on both sides of the 50 yards track she ran until she paused, staggered, and dropped. Like Bartsche suggests, there were several shots I passed on that week that would have been a chip shot for an '06. | |||
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From the UK and Irish perspective: For many years in Scotland there were some for whom 220 Swift was considered an acceptable LONG RANGE deer stalking calibre on large red deer at ranges of 200-300 yards! In the Irish Republic from the 1970s all civilian rifle calibres over 22 were prohibited so 22-250 became the ONLY legal rifle of choice for all deer including sika. Not my cup of tea at all and I and others even have doubts about the 243 Winchester...but nevertheless 220 Swift and 22-250 were once in UK and Irish Republic used on red and sika deer. | |||
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I've punched shoulders with 62gr TSX's and 75gr Swifts. Haven't recovered one yet. Only slug I've recovered using the 223AI was a 64gr Power Point and that was a RCH from punching out the other side. Weighed 57grs. | |||
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Here's the onside shoulder of a Texas whitetail that a 62gr TSX took out. Friggin bone everywhere and the bullet exited. Distance right at 100 yards.  | |||
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I've gotten complete penetration and excellent performance with the 64 Powerpoint on Hogs. Several in the 150 to 170 lb. weight range. Shot a large boar dead center of the shoulder just to see how it would perform. Bang - Flop. I recover that slug perfectly mushroomed under the shield/hide on the far shoulder. Have also shot several feral goats and sika deer with them. They all died. I don't carry my AR when I am serious deer hunting but I would not hesitate to use it if it was what I had in my hands at the time. I want to try the 65 Gameking soon. | |||
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I've shot smaller mulie bucks with 22 caliber bullets with impressive performance. I've used the Nosler BT and the Barnes X with similar results... bang...dead. Dead is Dead is Dead. A review of my records show 7 kills in 7 shots. Penetration is hard to quantify as all of the bullets that I can remember where complete pass throughs with devastating wound channels. | |||
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I appreciate all the replies. I am surprised at the pass throughs when bone is hit, especially on hogs. I have killed one deer, a mature doe, in Kentucky with a 223 that has a 1 in 9 twist barrel shooting a 60gr. Partition at 3110 fps. The shot was a paced off 67 steps. The doe went about 10 steps and dropped. The bullet passed through the lungs but slipped between ribs going in and out. I really thought the only reason it passed through was because it didn't hit any bone. Was it a stunt, I don't know about that. I was dead sure of the shot placement. I felt I got lucky once and went back to my 260 and 308. Again, thanks for the replies. PaPa 260 | |||
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I,ve had 53 gr TSX @ 3200 fps EXPLODE 2 gallon water jugs full , shatter the 3rd and punch an expanded bullet hole thru the 4th and keep going I was 15 feet away and got soaked . I found 2 petals so far , the shank of the bullet kept going ...... A 150 gr 308 cup and core sp bullet @ 2700 fps won,t do that ...................... .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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No stunt. I've had folks thumb their nose at a 223 for deer but have no problem with a 243. If someone can tell me with a straight face that .019" diameter and 10-20 grains is bullet weight makes a difference, I'll kiss their black cat's ass. | |||
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I've shot deer with .243s and Barnes TSXs 85 grain variety. The penetration just amazes me. The damage internally has always been as severe as any rifle I have ever killed deer with. This year I intend to whack one or more with a .223 pushing 70 grain TSXs at 3300 FPS and I cannot imagine stopping one of those in a deer broadside to me. I don't shoot deer lengthwise. Ever. If they're going away they get a pass unless they're just moving slow and give me a short range head shot. If they're facing me they will either come closer or turn. I have yet to see one back up out of range. Any other angle is fine by me. My experience with TSXs tends to make me believe even the 45 grain TSX is plenty enough for deer. | |||
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I use Sierra # 1360 on deer and have never had one go more than 50 paces or so, most drop on the spot. I'm shooting a 22/250AI/A 220 Swift in a shorter version. (3,998) to be exact. Bullet placemennt is key to small calibers on small/medium sized animals. I've never shot a deer with a .223 but i've shot a pick up load with a .222 using a 50gr. Sierra Blitz before they renamed it.And never had a failure. Lung/broadsideshots and you'll be eating venion. Stepchild NRA Life Member | |||
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I've shot both deer and hogs w/ both the TBBC and NP. They work just like their bigger siblings. The difference is the cartridge driving them. In the 222 & 223 the rarely give full penetration on broadside/lung shot S.Tx deer or hogs. I shot a large hog in a trap b/w the eyes at 20 ft w/ the 222/TBBC, he turned around and looked at me. I shot him in the eye and that worked. I have a picture w/ my middle finger to the knuckle in his face. I have at least 5 recovered 22/TBBC from the 222. The 220 Swift does get full penetration. I waited for a doe to face me so I could "test" the new 60g Partition when it first hit the market. Centered her chest and recovered that cute little partition a/b 6 ribs back. As typical, the front was gone but the rear was classic partition! Also, I you CANNOT place the 22s exactly where you want them, shoot a BIGGER bullet! | |||
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I used the old Nosler Zippedo 55 grain (forerunner of the Solid Base) to shoot through the intersected necks of two does. The bullet penetrated both necks completely and both does flopped on the ground instantly. This was over 30 years ago, so I don't recall whether any bone was hit, but I wouldn't be surprised at the old Zippedo giving full chest penentration on a broadside of the average whitetail. I would be very surprised if the current 60 grain Partition would not fully penetrate, but then sometimes even a "tough" .30 cal will take an odd turn and stay inside even a smallish deer. But what is the issue on full body penetration? It is the vital organs, not the skin on the far side, to which the trauma needs delivered. In my experience, if your bullet leaves a "good blood trail", then you're likely to NEED a "good blood trail". | |||
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 Well stated! rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I used an AR with 75 grain Amaxes on deer drives last year. One shot was broadside, destroyed shoulders, exited. Another got one through the lungs with an exit, was still running so I shot again at a sharp angle, entered just behind last rib and exited dead center of the sternum. That one really shocked me. Another one was a headshot, I have no clue what went where, it was a complete mess. Love shooting precision and long range. Big bores too! Recent college grad, started a company called MK Machining where I'm developing a bullpup rifle chassis system.  | |||
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Again, I appreciate the responses! Still surprised at the amount of penetration that some of the fourm members have had. I do believe if you need a good blood trail, you REALLY need it. I don't know if I will ever use a 223 again, but if that is all I had, I would go hunting. PaPa 260 | |||
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I have shot a grand total of 2 deer with a .22 centerfire. Both were with a .220 Swift and 55 grain V-Maxes. One was bang-flop and the other went less than 50 yards. While a .22 centerfire is not what I would choose to deer hunt with in general, if it was what I had I would pick up my .223 and go kill deer. I would be careful and pick my shots, but kill deer nonetheless. Good bullets for that task are the Barnes 53, 60 Partition, and the Winchester 64 Power Point. I think all of these would give very adequate penetration. | |||
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I have been hording a box of zippidos for a while ,saving them for special targets and they are the best bullets that i have found in a 223 Rem.The partitions are the ones i use most and they do just as well.Good Luck | |||
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Ain't it the truth? You can depend on a manufacturer to drop an item from their line if it is really good. I'll always have a special regard for the Zippedo because of the two-for-one shot, but it was a great bullet outside of that. I've got one box each of .224 and .243 stashed for a rainy day. I also found the old Nosler Solid Base to be a great bullet. I've killed a number of whitetails and hogs with it in both .243 and .270 and even took jackals and baboons in Africa and a huge feral hog (in my front yard!) with a .30-06 using the original solid base 165 grain. These are ocassionally available from Nosler as production overruns as they still manufacture a few of them for bulk sales to ammunition manufacturers. I'm shooting some 180's in a .300 H&H I recently acquired and can't seem to force it to shoot any group larger than .80" with them. | |||
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Yeah it make a difference. Now start kissing. The .243 can make them go faster with deer weight bullets. Most of the thumbing is because most deer shot with .223s are shot with varmint bullets because the shooters are recoil adverse FPS addicts | |||
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My son started hunting deer with a shortened stock TC .223 using 64gr Win Powerpoints, it happens they were reloads but the factories have been found to work just as well in later kills. He killed his first 4 or 5 deer, including 2 good bucks with it, and it has accounted for at least 3 other first deer by other people's kids on my ranch. All one shot kills. I dunno about pass through, they just go bang and the deer dies just like they're supposed to. Some run, some don't. But I make sure the kid is comfortable with the gun and can hit at least a 6 inch bull from a rest at 50 yards. Since it is scoped, has relatively little recoil, the kids like shooting it and all have shot dead on with it. Do I recommend a .223 for deer? No, but anyone who thinks they won't kill one graveyard dead with decent bullet placement (which is true of any normal hunting round) is dead wrong. Just like the 28 ga has a deserved reputation for shooting better than one would expect, the .223 will kill better than many would expect with decent bullets. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Papa 260, I have personally shot over two dozen deer with a 22 cal 53gr TSX @ 3800fps. I have witnessed at least another dozen kills with the same rifle and load combination. The shot distances have ranged from 40 to 400 yards with varying degrees of angles, and I have yet to recover a single bullet. All of these were on western South Dakota deer, both whitetails and mule deer. From yearlings to adults, does and bucks. I should add that I started using this combination just to prove all the internet experts wrong.  The combination I have used, just plain WORKS! | |||
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Well Papa 260, in my experience with shooting whitetails with a .22 cal centrefire rifle, I came to the conclusion that yes they will adequately kill a 180 lb 5x4 buck with one shot. I was using the 55 gr. Sierra SBT #1365 over a load of H380. The shot was less than 30 yards, and it hit the wide part of a rib about 2-1/2 inches in front of the diaphram. This created a small splash entry hole, about the size of a .50 cent piece. The jacket pretty much completely separated from the core and along with a lot of bone fragments, smashed through the internal organs, with some bone fragments lodging into the spinal column, with 2 small exit holes the size of nickels on the off side of the deer. At the shot, his hind legs dropped out from under him, and he proceeded to do "The Death Shake" then managed to get to his feet again, walked about 5 steps and fell over dead! It was the only deer I have ever shot with my 22-250, but probably not the last. I now use a .270 WSM, but whenever I'm out during general rifle season with my 22-250 coyote hunting, I'll take a couple of 55gr Sierra GK's with me as well as my coyote ammo! Just in case! | |||
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Wrong!!!! I have shot 5 mulie bucks with my 45-70 launching a 405 grainer at 1950 fps when the range was shorter and the cover heavy. That load generate sufficient recoil to avoid the "shooter are recoil adverse FPS addicts", right?? Why to people use .22 centerfires on deer? Because they want to!!!!! Shock I know. When distances are long and accuracy is required a long range varmint rig is correct for the situation. If you shoot your varmint rig enough, and most shooters do, you have more experience with that rifle and load and generally they are more accurate that the standard deer rifle. Rounds shot with a varmint rig = 2,000/year; Rounds shot with a deer rig = 40 rounds/year is the case for many shooters. Do the math!!!! | |||
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SDhunter: There ya go giving us your experience instead of your opinions. Don't you know that for many on this board experience doesn't enter into the equation?? It's only your long held opinion that no one should ever question and give reverence to that bears any weight in these discussions. If you believe that small caliber shooters are recoil sensitive FPS addicts then that is the state of the world for you. Real world experience in the field is something these sages grind their teeth over because it refutes their long held and precious opinions. Makes you wonder, doesn't it, if they have any EXPERIENCE with small calibers on deer or have those highly regarded opinions, by them, be fostered from the shop or armchair. | |||
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Well said TEANCUM.  The only anecdotal 'evidence' I have is with my experience with a hornet and shooting feral goat. A had a snap shot presented and knowing the limitations of that tiny 50 Sierra Blitze, I had to get the bullet past bone and into the heart - on an animal running straight at me at full tilt and very close. I took out it's heart! Conversely, when using a far more appropriate 303 Brit - no worries, just aim at a big part of him and shoot. Notice the absence of a sense of need for precision? (My bad of course. I have since corrected that). Regards 303Guy | |||
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I used a .223 and 22-250AI fast twist for several years in Baffin Island on Caribou. The 22-250AI was outstanding to 300 yards and the .223 good out to 170 and marginal past 200 yards. Penetration with proper bullets was never an issue. The wound channel of the 223 past 170 yards got to be a bit small. I used many of the bullets available at the time. The 64 grain Sierra and 70 grain Speer Semi-spitzers were a bit fragile. The 53X bullet was a great penetrator but second half wound channels were a bit small. I liked the 55 grain Trophy Bonded and 60 Grain Triple Jacket Bonded by Terry Allred the best. In a fast twist the 74 RWS cone point is a champ at speeds under 3400ft/sec.  From Left 74RWS at 3500ft/sec, 74 RWS at 3300ft/sec , 60 Grain Allred, 55 Trophy Bonded and 53X bullet all at 37-3900ft sec into wet newsprint. Later the 60 Nosler Partition became a favourite though the 64 Win PP is in there pitching too. | |||
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One more thing... We retired the 223 for caribou. It was too easy to make hits past the adequate killing range. Past 170 yards or so the killing power dropped off quick. These little bullets run on speed and once you lose that you have lost all. The advantage of the fast twist is that the heavier bullets have a better BC and keep their energy a bit better at long range. My wife now uses a Rem 600 in 6mm and it's a lot more gun! 100 Partitions work out to 300 yards and the gun is just as handy as the .223. | |||
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Were they all “bang flops” or did you have to run a few of them down? Do you count the ones that got away? | |||
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OK so we don't want to post any facts here only opinions! So my opinion is that any animal with its lungs/heart destroyed is going to run out of oxygen after a short up to 80 yard run. It does not matter what you destroy the lungs/heart with! How many deer were killed by a 25-35 before we found out that it was not adequate? How much more is the .223 than the 25-35? Go figure. | |||
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TEANCUM, Yep, that's why I went out and used it. I got tired of the "experts" spouting off how they don't work. I have a friend that used only a 22-250 and factory 55gr ammo since the late 70's for deer. He thought I was nuts when I switched from a 243 to a 270 Win. He just recently bought a 30-06 so he could hunt with it for a few seasons before he draws a coveted South Dakota elk tag. That takes about 12 years and is on year 9 this year. MickinColo, In response to your
Nope, I had to chase one of them down. But it wasn't the fault of the cartridge. Poor shot placement is poor shot placement no matter the caliber. I have never lost one, unless you count the deer last year that my son flat missed. Then drilled with second opportunity when it came back to the alfalfa field. As a matter of fact, some bang flopped, some did a death run, some didn't go very far. In fact, they acted an awful lot like most the other deer I have shot with calibers ranging from 243-375 H&H. One of my least impressive kills was with a 338 Win Mag and 225gr bullets. That deer ran close to 175 yards and jumped a fence before he decided to die from the double lung shot. So my question to you is this: How many deer have you killed with a 22 centerfire? I am not saying they are the be all, end all, but they work. I tend to grab one of my 270's most of the time. But I am fortunate enough to live in State that has allowed tremendous deer opportunity over the last 15-20 years due to an exploding herd. But the nasty winters the last couple of years in combination with the exploding Mt Lion population is starting to negatively impact the deer poppulation. This year was the first year in a very long time that The South Dakota GFP has taken moves to reduce the number of deer tags being issued. I am recoil sensitive, I found my personal tolerance to be somewhere below a 416 Rigby. I had to sell that rifle. It just wasn't fun to shoot. I love shooting my 9.3x64 Brenneke's and had a 375 H&H I wish I never would have sold. | |||
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North61 Thanks for sharing your EXPERIENCE. I took a small mulie buck with a 22-250 pushing a Barnes X 53g at a lazered 345 yards that was a mid air bang flop. I had stopped on the way home from a hunt to shoot at a crow that was about 300 yards away and missed. The bullet entered some willows and out came a small mulie buck running at us. He saw us and peeled off to the left and my son took two shots at him running before I had a chance to try a shot. My son declared that was the luckiest shot he had ever seen while I countered with the need for skill and experience to pull off a shot like that!!!!! On approaching the dead deer we heard some shots coming from over the hill and crouched down in the sagebrush to see another small mulie buck come tearing over the hill right at us and looking back behind him. He stopped at about 60 yards away and my son popped him with a 270 in the chest. When we got up to the 2 deer lying there they were about 70 yards apart!!!! It was a great day. I really enjoy hearing about your EXPERIENCES in the field and learn from all that post such info. | |||
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I agree with your OPINION!!!! My EXPERIENCE with archery has been around 30 animals taken including deer, bear, and elk. Those critters that get punched in the lungs/heart area do run out of oxygen/blood very quickly. It seems like they have around 10-15 seconds to pass out and if they run they make to around that same 80 yard mark and if they stay it's a matter of the 10-15 seconds before they tip over. I've never lost a critter poked with an arrow and have been amazed at how lethal those lung/heart shots are. The only exception seems to have been the black bears that last a little longer but still run out of fuel. | |||
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And you proved what with your 45-70? Nothing. Statistically the 45-70 was proven effective more than 100 years ago. Care to try your .223 on bison? You do the math and figure out that most people do not shoot 20 rounds a year. People shoot .223s because they don't like recoil or they don't want to buy a rifle that is not fired much. But suppose your logic is correct. You are going to use your .223 specifically at long range where it has about the same punch as a .22WMR. Not very smart. Oh yeah and where do you call it quits? Is it ok for elk and moose? At what distance? Just where does the stupidity end? If you stick with whitetail is a .22 Hornet ok? | |||
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But I'll bet he left a "good blood trail".  | |||
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OOOPPPSSSS ! You missed the point again. This time I'll go slower. The 45-70 reference was to show how wrong you were about small caliber shooters being "recoil adverse FPS addicts" your quote. Many of the 458 mag loads with 400 g loads are trucking along at around 2200FPS so my 45-70 load is 90% of that load and 90% of that recoil. Point made about recoil sensitivity!!! If the average shooter only shoots 20 rounds a year all the better for my argument. I'll go slower here also. The more you shoot your rifle the more you are familiar with it's performance, ballistics, wind bucking capability and accuracy. Still with me? Therefor the more you shoot the better you can become and varmint hunters certainly shoot more than 20 rounds per year. My last outing was 250 rounds in a day. 22 centerfires 223 and 22-250 are great for deer. You'll have to ask those who use a .22 Hornet on deer for their EXPERIENCE!! What is you EXPERIENCE with .22 centerfires on deer? How many have you killed with those calibers? But for elk and moose we move up to that powerhouse round...............22 Colibri with it's 20 grain bullet out of a mouse gun it is deadly on those elk and moose. (So not as to confuse you, that previous sentence was a joke!!!!!) Never said I think the 22 centerfires were great on elk and moose. Oh and also bison. | |||
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"So my question to you is this: How many deer have you killed with a 22 centerfire?" None. It’s illegal to hunt deer in Colorado with a caliber less than 6mm.  | |||
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In my younger days I shot many does with a 220 Swift and Hornady 52 grain match bullets. Probably close to 90. I have friends that did the same. It is a very tough little bullet and I do not recall a single instance I didn't get a complete pass through, nor a lost deer. Mostly bang-flops. I always used a 270 or bigger when hunting horns so I could take tougher shots. I shot several dozen (maybe over 200) hogs with both the Swift and later, a 223. These were close shots well under 100 yds for the most part. I used a number of different bullets and never had a lost hog although many of the 223 rounds would not pass through. In the end I was head-shooting those Barnes solid brass 22 caliber pointy things from the Swift. Under 100 yds they turned hog skulls into bone flour. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers Penatration of 22 cal. "Deer Bullets"
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