Triggertate

Do you find more acceptance in Texas with the .22 centerfires on deer than in other places??

Here in Idaho I noticed that more and more people are using these faster stepping 22 centerfires on deer and a lot of use on antelope.

Texas farmers and ranchers have a long history with the 22 centerfires and deer hunting. I remember being young and having an old ranch foreman hand me his Sears "Ted Williams" 222 (Savage made) and asked me to see if it was still "sighted in". I put three in one hole in the X ring with some green & yellow boxed Remington ammo and gave it back to him, both of us grinning. Only rifle he ever owned.

They're especially popular in the Hill Country where the deer are somewhat small-bodied.

OTOH, Texas poachers have a love affair with the 22 rimfires and manage to kill quite a few deer with them. One never sees or hears of carcasses found in the field from wounded deer shot that way, either.

Typical internet BS, most of the people arguing about using a .223 on deer have never tried it. Most of us who have would willingly say that it would not be a good choice for the average Joe Six Pack hunter. Most of us who have would willingly say that it kills them dead if you shoot them right.

Given that a .22 Long Rifle has killed elephants, a .223 on whitetails seems like overkill.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Typical internet BS, most of the people arguing about using a .223 on deer have never tried it. Most of us who have would willingly say that it would not be a good choice for the average Joe Six Pack hunter.:

roger

This is part opinion/part experience, so it is probably totally useless info.

I have killed one deer with a 22 Hornet, and hit and lost one deer with a 22 Hornet.

The one I killed, was a bang-flop, one shot instant death, hit in the neck at about 70 yards.

The one I lost was my second attempt at shooting a deer with a Hornet, but this time it was a body hit. I found blood and bone fragments but after 2 hours of searching, no deer. That was my last time to use the Hornet on deer.

Was it the guns fault or the fault of the bullet, No, as in 98% or more of the cases where a shot is made and regardless of caliber, game is lost, it is Operator Error.

As for the other 224's, I used to recommend them for less experienced shooters for a couple of reasons, one of those, was because the new shooter was not going to get knocked off the shooting bench the first time they pulled the trigger or get half mooned by the scope.

My reasoning was, a less experienced shooter, shooting a rifle that neither the recoil nor the muzzle blast was going either injure or frighten them, would be better able to concentrate on shot placement when sighting in the rifle.

Good shot placement on paper with a easily controllable rifle, to me should translate to a more confident shooter, better able to concentrate on accurately placing the bullet into the head or neck, and getting a bang-flop reaction to the critter they were shooting at.

Time marches on, I get involved in spending more time being a watcher and not the shooter, and I found that some folks, especially the less experienced, would, if not presented with the "Sweet Spot" shots, would try to break shoulders or do heart/lung shots with those smaller guns.

In a few cases if things had not just fell into place allowing the tracking party to find the animal, it would have been lost.

I don't recommend the 224's anymore for anyone hunting deer and larger critters.

I know it can be done, done it myself, seen it done, and know folks that a Remington 222 is all they have ever owned and hunted with and they have their house practically wall papered with mounts and racks from the deer they have killed with that gun.

I have seen a lot of deer killed with a 243 also and while I will recommend it, I would not own one myself.

My wife shoots a 257 Roberts and I much prefer it over the 243 and the only actual thing the 257 Roberts has over the 243 is heavier bullets.

If a shooter has the ability and discipline one what shots to take and what shots to pass on, then the 224's will work.

Conversly, just getting a bigger more powerful caliber, is not the way to compensate for poor shooting skills.

That 343 Mega Thruster throwing a 214 gr. Titanium Spear Point at 4500 FPS, is not going to kill anything with a near miss, simply because as the projectile went by, it sucked all of the available oxygen out of the atmosphere and the animal suffocates.

In normal hunting situations, bullet placement is the major item the shooter should be worried about, additionally that concern should be focused on the first shot, without even thinking about where shot #2 should go.

Put the first shot where it needs to be, and that second shot won't have to see the Light Of Day. JMO.

Several years ago a famous or is it infamous group in TX marketed w/ great inthusiasm a "new" cartridge the "22 TTH". It was nothing more than an improved 6mm Rem-257-7x57 necked down to 22. There were glowing reports from "experts" and all sorts of hype that it was the greatest thing ever conceived. Someone finally had a conscious thought and figured out that the average shooter could not buy ammo at the local Wal Mart and 22 bullets are not ideal for the average hunter shooting deer. It's a specialty cartridge and really only suitable for those that like to tinker w/ guns and REALLY know how to shoot.
Like the great Swift, it will kill deer(with certain premium bullets)in the hands of a really good, patient shooter.
The hype of the 22TTH has faded and you hardly hear of it today.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
That 343 Mega Thruster throwing a 214 gr. Titanium Spear Point at 4500 FPS, is not going to kill anything with a near miss, simply because as the projectile went by, it sucked all of the available oxygen out of the atmosphere and the animal suffocates.

>>>OOOPPPSSSS ! You missed the point again. This time I'll go slower. The 45-70 reference was to show how wrong you were about small caliber shooters being "recoil adverse FPS addicts" your quote. Many of the 458 mag loads with 400 g loads are trucking along at around 2200FPS so my 45-70 load is 90% of that load and 90% of that recoil. Point made about recoil sensitivity!!!<<<

No I did not miss the point about your loading a 45-70 as fast as it would go. To me you were just posting about speed again. So you think it is necessary to use a hot loaded 45-70 up close but it is better to use a varmint rifle at long range. You make no sense at all.
And you still managed to avoid the real question --
Is your 22 varmint rifle ok for elk?
What is the cut off range weight and distance for a .223 or are you willing to take it to Alaska and Africa too?

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Typical internet BS, most of the people arguing about using a .223 on deer have never tried it. Most of us who have would willingly say that it would not be a good choice for the average Joe Six Pack hunter. Most of us who have would willingly say that it kills them dead if you shoot them right.

Given that a .22 Long Rifle has killed elephants, a .223 on whitetails seems like overkill.

Got a citation for the .22 LR elephant kill?

I once read of a guy that killed a brown bear with a .22 LR handgun.

And yes I have used .22 center fires and many other calibers on deer. Most .223 shooting knot heads on the planet use 55 grn varmint bullets on everything and then wonder why the bullet penetrates only 3" and explodes.

quote:

Got a citation for the .22 LR elephant kill?

Well, sort of, it was mentioned in an article by the vet from Zimbabwe who used to, maybe still does, write in Precision Shooting. Someone claimed it couldn't be done, so the person did it twice as I recall. It's been a while but he let the elephant walk by him shot him behind the front leg into the heart and the elephant walked off and died shortly thereafter.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
>>>OOOPPPSSSS ! You missed the point again. This time I'll go slower. The 45-70 reference was to show how wrong you were about small caliber shooters being "recoil adverse FPS addicts" your quote. Many of the 458 mag loads with 400 g loads are trucking along at around 2200FPS so my 45-70 load is 90% of that load and 90% of that recoil. Point made about recoil sensitivity!!!<<<

No I did not miss the point about your loading a 45-70 as fast as it would go. To me you were just posting about speed again. So you think it is necessary to use a hot loaded 45-70 up close but it is better to use a varmint rifle at long range. You make no sense at all.
And you still managed to avoid the real question --
Is your 22 varmint rifle ok for elk?
What is the cut off range weight and distance for a .223 or are you willing to take it to Alaska and Africa too?

OOOPPPPPSSSS! You missed the point still once more..... that's ok let me help you. If you will look at the first page of this thread you will see the answer to your perplexing question that is oft repeated. If you look closely you will see that it reads:

But for elk and moose we move up to that powerhouse round...............22 Colibri with it's 20 grain bullet out of a mouse gun it is deadly on those elk and moose. (So not as to confuse you, that previous sentence was a joke!!!!!)

"Never said I think the 22 centerfires were great on elk and moose. Oh and also bison"

There I hope that helps you out of your dilemma as I think the thread read "penetration of 22 cal "DEER Bullets"... I added those caps to help you out.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
TEANCUM,
Yep, that's why I went out and used it. I got tired of the "experts" spouting off how they don't work.

I have a friend that used only a 22-250 and factory 55gr ammo since the late 70's for deer. He thought I was nuts when I switched from a 243 to a 270 Win.

He just recently bought a 30-06 so he could hunt with it for a few seasons before he draws a coveted South Dakota elk tag. That takes about 12 years and is on year 9 this year.


MickinColo,
In response to your

quote:

Were they all “bang flops” or did you have to run a few of them down? Do you count the ones that got away?

Nope, I had to chase one of them down. But it wasn't the fault of the cartridge.
Poor shot placement is poor shot placement no matter the caliber.

I have never lost one, unless you count the deer last year that my son flat missed. Then drilled with second opportunity when it came back to the alfalfa field.

As a matter of fact, some bang flopped, some did a death run, some didn't go very far. In fact, they acted an awful lot like most the other deer I have shot with calibers ranging from 243-375 H&H.

One of my least impressive kills was with a 338 Win Mag and 225gr bullets. That deer ran close to 175 yards and jumped a fence before he decided to die from the double lung shot.

So my question to you is this:
How many deer have you killed with a 22 centerfire?

I am not saying they are the be all, end all, but they work. I tend to grab one of my 270's most of the time. But I am fortunate enough to live in State that has allowed tremendous deer opportunity over the last 15-20 years due to an exploding herd. But the nasty winters the last couple of years in combination with the exploding Mt Lion population is starting to negatively impact the deer poppulation. This year was the first year in a very long time that The South Dakota GFP has taken moves to reduce the number of deer tags being issued.

I am recoil sensitive, I found my personal tolerance to be somewhere below a 416 Rigby. I had to sell that rifle. It just wasn't fun to shoot. I love shooting my 9.3x64 Brenneke's and had a 375 H&H I wish I never would have sold.

"So my question to you is this:
How many deer have you killed with a 22 centerfire?"

None. It’s illegal to hunt deer in Colorado with a caliber less than 6mm.

So I see you answer to the question "How many deer have you killed with a .22 centerfire?" was NONE.

I guess that you are then expressing your opinion rather than any EXPERIENCES you've had with .22 centerfires on deer. Just wanted to clarify that.

Idaho has no such regulation and we would welcome you to visit our fine state and buy an out of state license to pursue the mule deer of Idaho with a .22 centerfire. Interesting in item e of your Colorado regulation quote that the state is telling you that you can't use a .243 to hunt small game animals during the regular deer and elk seasons west of I-25 unless they have a unfilled deer or elk license? Wow that's interesting to say the least. Does the state allow you to carry a knife in the field with a blade longer than 4 inches while hunting small game E of I-25?? Seems like a lot or regulation but perhaps the Fish and Game Department is headquartered in Aspen???????

MIckinCol

I had a question for you.

So I see you answer to the question "How many deer have you killed with a .22 centerfire?" was NONE.

I guess that you are then expressing your opinion rather than any EXPERIENCES you've had with .22 centerfires on deer. Just wanted to clarify that.

Idaho has no such regulation and we would welcome you to visit our fine state and buy an out of state license to pursue the mule deer of Idaho with a .22 centerfire. Interesting in item e of your Colorado regulation quote that the state is telling you that you can't use a .243 to hunt small game animals during the regular deer and elk seasons west of I-25 unless they have a unfilled deer or elk license? Wow that's interesting to say the least. Does the state allow you to carry a knife in the field with a blade longer than 4 inches while hunting small game E of I-25?? Seems like a lot or regulation but perhaps the Fish and Game Department is headquartered in Aspen???????

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
TEANCUM,
Yep, that's why I went out and used it. I got tired of the "experts" spouting off how they don't work.

I have a friend that used only a 22-250 and factory 55gr ammo since the late 70's for deer. He thought I was nuts when I switched from a 243 to a 270 Win.

He just recently bought a 30-06 so he could hunt with it for a few seasons before he draws a coveted South Dakota elk tag. That takes about 12 years and is on year 9 this year.


MickinColo,
In response to your

quote:

Were they all “bang flops” or did you have to run a few of them down? Do you count the ones that got away?

Nope, I had to chase one of them down. But it wasn't the fault of the cartridge.
Poor shot placement is poor shot placement no matter the caliber.

I have never lost one, unless you count the deer last year that my son flat missed. Then drilled with second opportunity when it came back to the alfalfa field.

As a matter of fact, some bang flopped, some did a death run, some didn't go very far. In fact, they acted an awful lot like most the other deer I have shot with calibers ranging from 243-375 H&H.

One of my least impressive kills was with a 338 Win Mag and 225gr bullets. That deer ran close to 175 yards and jumped a fence before he decided to die from the double lung shot.

So my question to you is this:
How many deer have you killed with a 22 centerfire?

I am not saying they are the be all, end all, but they work. I tend to grab one of my 270's most of the time. But I am fortunate enough to live in State that has allowed tremendous deer opportunity over the last 15-20 years due to an exploding herd. But the nasty winters the last couple of years in combination with the exploding Mt Lion population is starting to negatively impact the deer poppulation. This year was the first year in a very long time that The South Dakota GFP has taken moves to reduce the number of deer tags being issued.

I am recoil sensitive, I found my personal tolerance to be somewhere below a 416 Rigby. I had to sell that rifle. It just wasn't fun to shoot. I love shooting my 9.3x64 Brenneke's and had a 375 H&H I wish I never would have sold.

"So my question to you is this:
How many deer have you killed with a 22 centerfire?"

None. It’s illegal to hunt deer in Colorado with a caliber less than 6mm.

So I see you answer to the question "How many deer have you killed with a .22 centerfire?" was NONE.

I guess that you are then expressing your opinion rather than any EXPERIENCES you've had with .22 centerfires on deer. Just wanted to clarify that.

Idaho has no such regulation and we would welcome you to visit our fine state and buy an out of state license to pursue the mule deer of Idaho with a .22 centerfire. Interesting in item e of your Colorado regulation quote that the state is telling you that you can't use a .243 to hunt small game animals during the regular deer and elk seasons west of I-25 unless they have a unfilled deer or elk license? Wow that's interesting to say the least. Does the state allow you to carry a knife in the field with a blade longer than 4 inches while hunting small game E of I-25?? Seems like a lot or regulation but perhaps the Fish and Game Department is headquartered in Aspen???????

Looking back through this thread, I can’t find any expression of my “opinion” on the subject of hunting deer with 22-caliber guns. I asked a “question” and you answered it very well. Then you asked me a question and I answered it as straightforward and honestly as I could. Maybe “Do you count the ones that got away?” raised an eyebrow or two but it was still just a question.

As for my OPINION on the subject, I couldn’t careless what you guys use to hunt deer with in Idaho. If I were to hunt deer in Idaho I feel any one of a number of 22s I own, with proper bullet selection, would do the job just fine.

But then I would have to ask myself a question. Why would I handicap myself with a 22 (knowing the cost of out of state licenses these days) when I own other guns that work fabulously on deer and don’t cut into my margin of error?

It’s easy for the homeboys to fool around with marginal equipment; it doesn’t cost them all that much if they don’t fill a tag. Out of state hunters on the other hand, spend thousands of dollars for the chance to take one or two shots. Spending that kind of money, I would think that it would make more sence to bring “more gun” than just a 22.

PS

I’m not completely ignorant of the effects that 22s have on bone and flesh in larger animals.

My preferences are larger calibers simply because the likelihoods of a DRT with minimal meat damage are improved.

Just from a small amount of personal experience, the .223 will kill deer but selection of bullet and impact point are critical to maximize its effectiveness.

That being said, if one does not have the luxury of careful target selection ... I can't recommend .22 calibers for the purpose. If that was all that was available, I'd go hunting but would be careful with its use.

To add to my previous post, if you can't kill a deer with a .223 you would be better served with a bowling ball, golf clubs or maybe the riding lawn mower.
Parker Ackley used a .220 Swift to kill Elk, with the proper bullets, bullets that he named Ackley Controlled Expansion, made in his shop.
I know of a man from Rock Springs, WY who killed a full grown cow Moose with a .17 Ackley Bee.Imagine that!
It's not so much what you shoot, but how you shoot it. At least that's how I look at it.
I came to a conclusion many years ago, and that was that animals only die so dead and after that it becomes a matter of tissue destruction.
The magnums have their place, but not at my place.

Stepchild

My good friend set his daughter up when she was 7yrs old with a .223 for deer hunting. She'll be using that same .223 this year, when she turns 11. She's killed 2 deer each year with one shot each, shooting from 40-110yrds.

I'll be damned if I couldn't manage to take deer with a caliber that a 7-11 yr old girl can cleanly kill deer with.

It can be done humanely and effectively if you know the limitations of the rig you're hunting with.

Local homeboys been using them for a lotta years, they do 'work'.

Rarely if ever hear about the times it didn't 'work' . . . Many stories start and end with shot x number one shot kills never a miss never a wounded one never one not found = BS or you ain't shot enuf of 'em yet.

The day will come when it don't work, but then again, they ain't out much.

Min cal for deer should be .243, better yet quarter bore. Should't be spreading stories for Joe Sixpack to get any ideas.

But hey, what would we all do without the internet stories to read Kevlar on, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

While we have all the Hunting Geniuses in one area, let's look at this subject from a slightly different angle.

Now all of us have/think we have/believe we have/read enough of other folks writings/listened to enough other geniuses or whatever else we came come up with, to set at our computers and spew our knowledge out there for the masses.

Now on this subject of the 224's for deer, let's look at the following and try to answer them to the best and MOST HONEST of our abilities.

1. Do you think the 224's are optimal deer guns under ALL hunting conditons or are minimal and should be left to those that have the knowledge/skill/discipline of how and when to use them and the proper type ammo to use in them?

2. Do you believe that the 224's are adequate for any/all Body Shots on deer or similar sized and muscled game at ranges beyond 100 yards or is 100 yards at the edge of the 224's working ability for consistant kills?

3. As a group of supposedly rational, thinking hunters that have experience, should we be recommending calibers/cartridges to inexperienced hunters?

4. This ties in with 3 above, should we be recommending calibers/cartridges that in actuallity, only experienced shooter should be using. This means both the minimal ones and the maximum ones.

As a group, we should be recommending proven, easily obtainable cartridges to the inexperienced that ask for our advice.

I think the 375 H&H and 35 Whelen are the greatest thing since the invention of gun powder.

I don't recommend either except to experienced hunters wanting something different for two simple reasons, recoil and difficulty in finding ammunition.

Too many hunters/shooters let their own personal preferences and prejudices cloud their information giving abilities, me included.

While the various 224's are capable on a regular basis of killing deer sized and even bigger game, how many animals are lost yearly because an inexperienced hunter/shooter tried a body shot on a running deer at 150 yards with a 55 grain varmint bullet out of a 223 AR.

Just my opinion, but I think the 224's and the 30 mags and larger should be graduted into after getting down the basics with one or two the mid range, 243 to 30-06 class cartridges.

Crazyhorseconsulting
Good post.

Crazyhorseconsulting, my thinking exactly! Well stated post!

I think Crazyhorse makes some valid points if you consider the "average hunter" with an "average rifle" with factory ammo.

But consider this:

What about putting my Savage 12 FVSS .223 with a 70 grain TSX at 3300 into the hands of "average hunter" used to hunting with an '06 and not all that disciplined at putting the bullet exactly where it should be?

What about putting the same rifle into the hands of a new shooter who hasn't learned bad habits and who I've taught to put the bullet where they want it?

If I am confident that new shooter will put the crosshairs in the right place, I am OK with that. More so than undisciplined shooter used to something bigger. I am actually in exactly that position this coming season and I am pretty sure experienced shooter will be using one of my 30 cal guns and new shooter will use the .223 or perhaps a .243 with an 85 TSX, which is about the same thing.

No disrespect to miles58, but this is my opinion based on my observations.

The “average hunter” uses “minute of deer” as his/her accuracy standard. “If you can hit an 8” paper plate at somewhere around 100 yards, you’re good to go”.

The “average hunter” is possible still working from the 2 boxes of ammunition he/she bought 2 years ago at Wal-Mart.

The “average hunter” usually owns one big game hunting rifle in the caliber range of 277 to 308 calibers. There are exceptions to this statement but not that many. I’ve been looking at this for years In my limited study area..

I’ve observed the “average hunter” in the field for years. I’m not overly impressed.

I have other observations about the “average hunter” but let’s keep this short and to the point.

The “average hunter” has no business using a 22-caliber rifle on deer until he/she can shoot MOA instead of MOD (minute of deer).

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Got a citation for the .22 LR elephant kill?

Well, sort of, it was mentioned in an article by the vet from Zimbabwe who used to, maybe still does, write in Precision Shooting. Someone claimed it couldn't be done, so the person did it twice as I recall. It's been a while but he let the elephant walk by him shot him behind the front leg into the heart and the elephant walked off and died shortly thereafter.

Sorry but I find that impossible to believe.
I have shot way too many critters with a .22 LR to believe that.

Actual experience. For the past (5) years I have used the Barnes 70gr TSX in a 1:7 twist 5.56 M700 bolt gun. I have taken about 150 hogs and 65-100 deer all except one were one shot kills that traveled less than 20 yards. 95% had exit wounds with great blood trails. One 2 1/2 year old spike was feeding towards me with his head down at a distance of 242 yards. I shot him through the lower, back side of his neck. the bullet broke his neck, took out his heart, one lung, through the liver, into the ham and was just under the skin on the off side. That is over 30" of penetration while encountering heavy bone first. The bullet mushroomed perfectly to .46" and weighed 70.4 grains. Facts are facts, right bullet in the right hands will kill easily.

I have shot numerous old bucks during the rut with heart/lung shots and you wouldn't know they were shot with an inadequete cartridge.

Bottom line; as far as penetration goes you can not beat the TSX and I have used Sciroccos, partitions, Sierras 65gr SBT, 64gr Power point, Nosler Solid Bases, Zipedos, etc... All pail in comparison, except on price.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Got a citation for the .22 LR elephant kill?

Well, sort of, it was mentioned in an article by the vet from Zimbabwe who used to, maybe still does, write in Precision Shooting. Someone claimed it couldn't be done, so the person did it twice as I recall. It's been a while but he let the elephant walk by him shot him behind the front leg into the heart and the elephant walked off and died shortly thereafter.

Sorry but I find that impossible to believe.
I have shot way too many critters with a .22 LR to believe that.

Like I care, I read it from what most people consider to be a reliable source. I'm not saying it absolutely happened, I wasn't there and I'm not going to shoot an elephant, regardless of caliber so.......Believe it or not.

So are we discussing average hunters or the actual performace of 22 caliber premium bullets on animals in the field?

MickinColo, your opinion just doesn't hold water. No matter how much you change the subject away from the original post. The simple fact is that they work and you have ZERO field experience with the combination.

Crazyhorseconsulting, same thing we are discussing actual performance of these cartridge/bullet combinations in the field.
Not what we recommend to the average hunters. I will say that I will take shot placement every day, over magnumitis.

I took my son to the rifle range the other day to shoot his new 270.

I thought he was ready to step up to the 270. But even with reduced loads of H4895 and 100gr bullets. He shot circles around the 270 with the 22-250.

He knows which rifle he is going to use this fall, I know which rifle I prefer him to use this fall.

Shot placement relegates most other discussions to secondary importance.

Bigger diamter kills better, higher velocity kills farther.

A bad shot is a bad shot no matter the caliber. I just don't have enough personal experience with bad shots to be offering opinion on the differences between a gutshot deer with a 270 , 30-06, 375 H&H, 243 or 22 caliber.

A couple of years ago, someone could say, with utter confidence, that the 22's were too small for deer. Today that statement is obsolete, the Barnes TSX,Trophy bonded and partition have changed all of this, the evidence is overwhelming.

Do i use a 22 for deer? no, im not recoil sensitive, but i would with out even thinking twice about it. Its not a stunt, to shoot a deer with a 22 and a bullet constructed for big game. Im seriously thinkin about loading up a 53gr tsx in my .223 AR-15 to get some first hand experience.

To put a fine point on it, there is no such thing as the "average hunter". Been hunting 40 years now and never met one. I met a bunch of hunters that were average shots, I guess. Met some good hunters that were bad shots. Met some good shots that were bad hunters (low in skill, not unethical). Met some bad shots that were poor hunters and unethical (poor bastards) and some really unethical dicks that could shoot the nuts off a flea at 300 yards. But I never met Mr. Average.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Got a citation for the .22 LR elephant kill?

Well, sort of, it was mentioned in an article by the vet from Zimbabwe who used to, maybe still does, write in Precision Shooting. Someone claimed it couldn't be done, so the person did it twice as I recall. It's been a while but he let the elephant walk by him shot him behind the front leg into the heart and the elephant walked off and died shortly thereafter.

Sorry but I find that impossible to believe.
I have shot way too many critters with a .22 LR to believe that.

Like I care, I read it from what most people consider to be a reliable source. I'm not saying it absolutely happened, I wasn't there and I'm not going to shoot an elephant, regardless of caliber so.......Believe it or not.

Anyone can repeat garbage.
Go mine a couple dozen .22 LR out of armadillos, cattle carcasses and any other critter you want to try it on. Then tell me someone would be stupid enough to get close enough to try one on an elephant.

This is great internet stuff, a wonderful blend of truth, fairy tails, grand imagination, magic pixie dust, anger, OPINION, fact, and fun. The best logic so far crazyhorseconsulting!

Physics should tell anyone with the ability to walk upright that a .223 Remington can drive the right 55-70 grain bullet clean thru the lung cavity of a WT deer at any reasonable distances. Biology and Pathology tell us that without working lungs and a heart life will cease within a few seconds. Physics also tells us that the further the distance (take 300 yards just for instance) a 55-70 grain .223 bullet has a lot less momentum than a 130 grain .277 caliber bullet started at about the same speed. (Fill in your larger caliber of choice above). For a man that reloads his own ammunition, is proficient in killing animals with a pointed sticks (arrows), has hunted a while and knows his limitations a .223 remington under 150 yards (IN MY OPINION) can logically be no worse than a pointed stick from a bow. Logic and physics cannot be denied.

Deny physics, logic, and biology and you find yourself and any emotionally tinged chest thumping regards your (fill in your favorite caliber or opinion here) planted firmly into the Precambrian age where huge beasts with small minds ate and farted huge noxious farts for millions of years.

Get Joe hunter that shoots 2 bullets a year to sight his rifle in and then flings lead at anything he sees at any distance a bigger gun. This again is only on the 50:50 chance he gut shoots an animal at 300 yards and so that said unlucky beast might stand a better chance of not wandering for days with no blood trail, a 22 caliber hole in its near side, and a slow death.

So we are all right, but we are all wrong. I have used the word "moron" regards the flinging of 55 grain SGK's at 700 yard deer and still would use it despite being threatened with expulsion. Me I have 62 grain TSX's over 24 grains of Ramshot TAC that I am going to shoot this year. Anyone want to bet me that should I shoot once that I do not kill with one shot?

the 22 LR elephant story while I have heard it before is totaly unethical in my opinion and if someone actually did this the guy who did it should be banned from hunting for life or worse.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy P Coaltrain:

"planted firmly into the Precambrian age where huge beasts with small minds ate and farted huge noxious farts for millions of years."

I liked that bit mate

REgards,

GH

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy P Coaltrain:
This is great internet stuff, a wonderful blend of truth, fairy tails, grand imagination, magic pixie dust, anger, OPINION, fact, and fun. The best logic so far crazyhorseconsulting!

Me I have 62 grain TSX's over 24 grains of Ramshot TAC that I am going to shoot this year. Anyone want to bet me that should I shoot once that I do not kill with one shot?

Nicely written. Please tell me ,if you will, why you seem to prefere to hunt deer with a 22 caliber rifle rather than something bigger with a greater energy level? roger

quote:

Posted 06 August 2009 05:45 Hide Post
No disrespect to miles58, but this is my opinion based on my observations.

The “average hunter” uses “minute of deer” as his/her accuracy standard. “If you can hit an 8” paper plate at somewhere around 100 yards, you’re good to go”.

The “average hunter” is possible still working from the 2 boxes of ammunition he/she bought 2 years ago at Wal-Mart.

The “average hunter” usually owns one big game hunting rifle in the caliber range of 277 to 308 calibers. There are exceptions to this statement but not that many. I’ve been looking at this for years In my limited study area..

I’ve observed the “average hunter” in the field for years. I’m not overly impressed.

I have other observations about the “average hunter” but let’s keep this short and to the point.

The “average hunter” has no business using a 22-caliber rifle on deer until he/she can shoot MOA instead of MOD (minute of deer).

No problems Mick. I agree that hunters have no business using a .22 on deer (regardless of the load) until they can shoot MOA or close to it. I also extend that to anything bigger though.

I don't think that the guy who's doing good to keep his shots on a paper plate at known yardage should be out shooting at living animals no matter what caliber he's using. There's plenty of room to add to the error by misjudging distance, misjudging wind, excitement etc.

I do not believe that the margin of error increases all that much with bigger calibers and heavier bullets, and most particularly when you compare a cup and core to a Barnes. I do not believe that an '06 shooting a 180 offers enough forgiveness to make a noticeable difference between it and the aforementioned .223.

Having killed many deer and several with 22 centerfires I find them adequate for some types of hunting. I have settled on a 7x57 or 308 as my rifle usually taken and find no reason to take anything else. I have seen far more deer killed with the 223 than I have shot with similar rounds and have to say I have been impressed many times when young hunters make those one shot kills.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Actual experience. For the past (5) years I have used the Barnes 70gr TSX in a 1:7 twist 5.56 M700 bolt gun. I have taken about 150 hogs and 65-100 deer all except one were one shot kills that traveled less than 20 yards. 95% had exit wounds with great blood trails. One 2 1/2 year old spike was feeding towards me with his head down at a distance of 242 yards. I shot him through the lower, back side of his neck. the bullet broke his neck, took out his heart, one lung, through the liver, into the ham and was just under the skin on the off side. That is over 30" of penetration while encountering heavy bone first. The bullet mushroomed perfectly to .46" and weighed 70.4 grains. Facts are facts, right bullet in the right hands will kill easily.

I have shot numerous old bucks during the rut with heart/lung shots and you wouldn't know they were shot with an inadequete cartridge.

Bottom line; as far as penetration goes you can not beat the TSX and I have used Sciroccos, partitions, Sierras 65gr SBT, 64gr Power point, Nosler Solid Bases, Zipedos, etc... All pail in comparison, except on price.

Perry

Perry....Perry

There you go again confusing all these lads with a great deal of EXPERIENCE shooting your load on more deer than most of us would ever hope to shoot, and in a 5 year period!!!!!! Sound like that load is working on the hogs also.

Don't you know that you should have fierce pride in your opinion backed up with no EXPERIENCE and flame anyone like yourself with that impressive shooting record. After all many of these lads have read extensively about small caliber inadequacies and have told and heard many tall tales from their buddies about the likes of those who shoot small calibers.

Maybe it like seeing a guy in jacked up truck..... like they say the higher the truck the smaller the ............

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy P Coaltrain:
This is great internet stuff, a wonderful blend of truth, fairy tails, grand imagination, magic pixie dust, anger, OPINION, fact, and fun. The best logic so far crazyhorseconsulting!

Me I have 62 grain TSX's over 24 grains of Ramshot TAC that I am going to shoot this year. Anyone want to bet me that should I shoot once that I do not kill with one shot?

Nicely written. Please tell me ,if you will, why you seem to prefere to hunt deer with a 22 caliber rifle rather than something bigger with a greater energy level? roger

I can hunt with many rifles and have no predisposition towards a 22, just no longer any predisposition against it, for truthfully how can it kill any worse at close range than a 30-06 if applied correctly (OPINION based in logic)? Granted Joe the hunter can not usually make that correct application. I will chance to find myself in the deer woods of GA towards late December when the coyotes are hungry and moving about. It is so nice to be able to shoot 2-3 times more quickly than one might with a bolt gun as one might find a coyote or three in needs of repair. On the other hand a deer might present itself as well which I will shoot and kill. To your point this year will be mostly a 308/257 Roberts year, it is my hope that end of year will be as much as possble shoot Wile E. Coyote.

quote:

SDhunter
one of us

Posted 06 August 2009 19:45 Hide Post
So are we discussing average hunters or the actual performace of 22 caliber premium bullets on animals in the field?

MickinColo, your opinion just doesn't hold water. No matter how much you change the subject away from the original post. The simple fact is that they work and you have ZERO field experience with the combination.

I wasn’t changing the subject. But I do have a question for you. How is a .224 superior over a .243 for deer hunting?

quote:

Anyone want to bet me that should I shoot once that I do not kill with one shot?

I could bet that if you shot head on at a really nice buck late in the afternoon say 80 yards in heavy brush looking into the setting sun that you would wish you had something more substantial. You can't always take deer in the sniper mode. Shoot one on the edge of a field and he may run 100 yards into heavy brush and jump a fence. All you have done is feed the coyotes.

I was unaware that anyone suggested a .224-something was superior to a .243-something. Those of us that have used various .224 rounds including the 223 Winchester/5.56 NATO successfully are just recounting our experiences.