I have confidence in all my rifles. They don't get to hang around if I don't. But just like the tools in my box, some are better suited for certain jobs than others.

I hunted with a PH in RSA who did a lot of culling; that would be hundreds of Zebra, Wildebeest, etc. every year. The 22-250 he used for that task was on it's third barrel.

The lads that are interesting to talk to about this subject of the .224 centerfires for deer are those that live in states where you can shoot many deer in a year and therefore build up a lot of experience.

I've heard that some states will allow 5,6,7, or even one deer a day limits. Don't know if those regulations are still effective but the lads with the most experiences are the ones.

Last year I also hunted one day with a Marlin 1895 Cowboy in 45-70. My load was 350g bullet at around 1500-1600 fps and I had a shot at around 150-160 yards and shot over the deer.

With my .223 I'm shooting rock chucks in the head at 200-250 yards with no sweat and I'm shooting that .223 around 500-700 times during the summer at jackrabbits and coyotes. That is a lot more than the guy that gets one shot a year at a deer. All that practice does pay off.

I think the guys with lots of experience have come to realize that shot placement relegates most other discussions to secondary importance.

Would I take any of my .224's on a trophy hunt? The answer for me isn't quite a one word answer and its the same reason I don't hunt with them during the rut at home.

A big bodied, mature deer, is a different animal during the rut. They are jittery and pumped full of adrenalin. They don't stand still much and move around a lot. They have so much adrenalin in their bodies that they can take massive amounts of tissue damage and still keep going, even from .300 win mags and the like, even with proper shot placement.

I have plenty of confidence in both my .22-250 and my AR. I've shot both of them enough that I am familiar with what they are capable of and what they are not, I would have to say that I would take it as a back up, but not my primary rifle if going on a trophy hunt since it most likely would take place during the rut.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
The lads that are interesting to talk to about this subject of the .224 centerfires for deer are those that live in states where you can shoot many deer in a year and therefore build up a lot of experience.

I've heard that some states will allow 5,6,7, or even one deer a day limits. Don't know if those regulations are still effective but the lads with the most experiences are the ones.

Last year I also hunted one day with a Marlin 1895 Cowboy in 45-70. My load was 350g bullet at around 1500-1600 fps and I had a shot at around 150-160 yards and shot over the deer.

With my .223 I'm shooting rock chucks in the head at 200-250 yards with no sweat and I'm shooting that .223 around 500-700 times during the summer at jackrabbits and coyotes. That is a lot more than the guy that gets one shot a year at a deer. All that practice does pay off.

It's 8 per year here and you can limit out in 8 day's if you wanted to. No tag draws, no tags. We don't even have a check in station. It's run on the honor systems down here.

Terry

quote:

I wonder if Mr Hawks has even tried to use a .22 centerfire on deer? For that matter I have never seen any information as to exactly what qualifies him to be so verbose as to the topic of firearms and munitions to start with.

My sentiments exactly. Nothing of his that I have read has really impressed me. Oh well, I guess some people think he's the real deal. I don't. In fact, once I see it's an article he's done, I don't even bother to read it anymore. Total aste of what time I have left on this planet.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
The lads that are interesting to talk to about this subject of the .224 centerfires for deer are those that live in states where you can shoot many deer in a year and therefore build up a lot of experience.

I've heard that some states will allow 5,6,7, or even one deer a day limits. Don't know if those regulations are still effective but the lads with the most experiences are the ones.

Last year I also hunted one day with a Marlin 1895 Cowboy in 45-70. My load was 350g bullet at around 1500-1600 fps and I had a shot at around 150-160 yards and shot over the deer.

With my .223 I'm shooting rock chucks in the head at 200-250 yards with no sweat and I'm shooting that .223 around 500-700 times during the summer at jackrabbits and coyotes. That is a lot more than the guy that gets one shot a year at a deer. All that practice does pay off.

It's 8 per year here and you can limit out in 8 day's if you wanted to. No tag draws, no tags. We don't even have a check in station. It's run on the honor systems down here.

Terry

It would be possible then for someone living in your state to fill all 8 tags a year and in 4 years he would most likely have a literal lifetime of experience compared to someone who lives in a state with an annual limit of 1.

Amazing and that's why a guy from such a state as yours has some heavy EXPERIENCE behind him when he comments on the use of .224 bullets on deer.

It would be possible then for someone living in your state to fill all 8 tags a year and in 4 years he would most likely have a literal lifetime of experience compared to someone who lives in a state with an annual limit of 1.

Amazing and that's why a guy from such a state as yours has some heavy EXPERIENCE behind him when he comments on the use of .224 bullets on deer.[/QUOTE]

A friend of mine and I were talking about something similar the other day as I have been considering buying a new bow since this will be my 20th bow season.

For NC that is conceivably 120 deer, not counting other states hunted in.

Just across they state line in SC they, at one time, had no season limits. I happen to know one fellow who took over 30 deer in one season with a 22-250.

It doesn't take long to learn a thing or two at that rate.

quote:

Originally posted by marshmandan:
It would be possible then for someone living in your state to fill all 8 tags a year and in 4 years he would most likely have a literal lifetime of experience compared to someone who lives in a state with an annual limit of 1.

Amazing and that's why a guy from such a state as yours has some heavy EXPERIENCE behind him when he comments on the use of .224 bullets on deer.

A friend of mine and I were talking about something similar the other day as I have been considering buying a new bow since this will be my 20th bow season.

For NC that is conceivably 120 deer, not counting other states hunted in.

Just across they state line in SC they, at one time, had no season limits. I happen to know one fellow who took over 30 deer in one season with a 22-250.

It doesn't take long to learn a thing or two at that rate.[/QUOTE]


30 deer in one season? Sounds like a true hunter and conservationalist.

30 deer in one season? Sounds like a true hunter and conservationalist.[/QUOTE]

Think what you like, but as a hunter and conservationist myself I would much rather him kill 30 or 40 in a season legally and give them away to people who will eat them than have to hear farmers talk about the hundreds they shoot during the summer that they have to leave laying in the fields. Oh, wait I do still hear about farmers shooting that many deer and having to leave them laying in the fields.

Marsh,

Where are you talking about that farmers are killing 100s of deer in the summer? Is that happening in NC/SC?

Probably both NC and SC. All that's needed is a nuisance permit and you can start killing. There are some rules to it in Mississippi. The deer must be left where they are shot being the most important. I've been invited on several off season permitted hunts but have never done it.

Terry

quote:

30 deer in one season? Sounds like a true hunter and conservationalist.

Scott in some places, including level 3 MLD properties here in Texas, shooting that many deer is the only thing keeping the deer from eating themselves into starvation. On some of these places the landowner limits the shooters to just a few friends and one person may shoot 50 or 75 deer during the season. Most I have ever shot was 5 over a 3 day period on one ranch.

It may not sound like good conservation practice, but when you have too many deer for the available forage to support, you either kill off the excess or run the risk of all of them starving or getting some disease in the herd and losing all of the animals.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Marsh,

Where are you talking about that farmers are killing 100s of deer in the summer? Is that happening in NC/SC?

All of the ones I know are in NC, but I'd bet it goes on in SC too.

We have pockets in the state where we have way too many deer. Wait, let me restate that. We have pockets of area in the state where the carrying capacity is such that we have deer numbers in excess of 30 deer per square mile.

We have some areas that it is legal to shine a light for deer as long as you don't have a weapon in your possession. I have personally counted 70+ deer in a field at one time, granted it was a pretty good sized field. Early in the season its nothing to have 15 or 20 in a field at once.

Tons of browse and agriculture year round, 50" average rainfall, and mild winters make for lots of deer. We also have a buck to doe ratio that must be terribly out of wack as I've seen spotted fawns as early as April and as late as early September.

One might say that a varmint rifle is appropriate in this instance as the deer are, at times, varmints.

In South Dakota it is fairly easy to get 6 tags a year and if you are willing to buy leftover tags, you could get upwards of 20.

When I was shooting lots of deer with my 22-250 it was not uncommon to have 12-14 tags a year. My favorite is still a 270 Win, but believe me when I say that a 22 centerfire will kill a deer. I have killed deer with a long list of cartridges from 22LR to 375H&H, all the action types and sights, compounds, recurves, longbows, muzzleloaders and even vehicles.

Between my boys, and friends,and myself, we have killed well over 50 plus deer/antelope with a 22 centerfire. The only time there was a problem was when my friend shot a nice buck through the ribs on public ground. The deer ran the usual 50-100 yards and stopped in a death stance. Another hunter shot the deer and claimed it. Wasn't a big enough deal to argue about or call the warden. He just got to keep hunting and filled his tags.

I have no reservations about using my 22-250, and was just at the range today verifying the POI. I can certainly take it out this fall and shoot my deer with it, but no amount of pictures or anecdotal experience is going to convince the naysayers.

Thanks guys. I stand corrected. I've heard of it in the past, just not recently. Hard to believe they get out of hand so quickly even with regular hunting. My county is stingy as hell. You can only shoot a doe from Thanksgiving to Sunday. Plus there are antler restrictions on bucks.

I would be inclined to agree with Chuck Hawkes in that I consider the .22 centrefires light for use on most deer species, for something on the size of roe deer they are probably OK.

I used a .22/250 with 55 grain bullets and also a 5.6x57mm with 74gr RWS ammunition for a good number of years on fallow deer in Ireland due to the firearms restrictions in the 1970's.

Both worked ok if the shot was placed precisely
in the heart/lung area and the shoulder bone was avoided.

The 5.6x57mm was decidely better that the .22/250, but sometimes an animal would run off and get into very thick cover making it difficult to find.

This happened to me a number of times so I decided to shoot all deer thereafter into the base of the neck where it joins the shoulders.

I consider the .22's cnetrefires very marginal for deer, and not really suitable for any kind of long range work.

There are far more suitable calibres out there, the great American 30-06 is about the best general purpose hunting cartridge in the world, so why bother using something which is on the margins ?

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Thanks guys. I stand corrected. I've heard of it in the past, just not recently. Hard to believe they get out of hand so quickly even with regular hunting.

On good pasture, a WT deer will drop twins over half the time and frequently have triplets. I had a trio of does (looked like a mom and two grown daughters)that often browsed in my yard that had a total of 7 fawns between them.

Matchkings are the only bullet that will kill deer from a 22 cal. All other bullets bounce off.

I expect to kill a couple deer this fall with my AR and my mod 70 223 wssm. I loaded 70 Barnes TSX and 60 partitions in the 223 rem and 55 TTSX in the 223 wssm.

I wouldnt shoulder shoot an elk with a 22 cal but on deer the 22 cal works just fine. I have only shot 6 deer with 22 cals FWIW.

I love these topics. In case some didn't see it, I posted pictures of a deer shot with my 223. My friend shot it and the bullet went through the first rib and took out part of the heart and exited through another rib. Here is a link to the post if you want to see it (scroll down).
http://forums.accuratereloadin...6711043/m/2581078661

Having experience does not automatically qualify anyone as an expert, some folks don't learn from experience. I have shot exactly 5 deer with 6 shots using my AR-15 in .223. All deer were shot on the same trip to Kodiak Island in the late 80s when the limit was 7 deer. I passed up a lot of deer to get near-perfect shots. The first buck was hit at ~125 yards and didn't react to the shot, so thinking that I missed I fired again. He fell a couple seconds later with two closely-spaced holes in his chest. I learned that the deer didn't react much to my load, the other four just tipped over five to ten seconds after the shot.

The load was a 60-grain Nosler SolidBase at around 2750 fps IIRC. Since I didn't know how fragile the bullets would be (I preferred penetration to over-expansion) I downloaded them a bit - which wasn't necessary as it turned out. I only recovered one bullet, mushroomed under the offside hide from a 175 yard shot. The others were complete pass-throughs. I don't consider myself an "expert" on harvesting deer with .224 bullets, that would take a much larger number of kills on other deer species and in different terrain. I'll let the others here be the experts. Note that I have not shot anything larger than a porcupine with a .22 centerfire since that trip.



.

To expect our fine men and women in uniform to use a 223 with junk bullets to perform their job and then say that it wont kill a 100lbs deer is crazy, or am I missing something here?



Expert defined. X is an unknown in a math equation and spert is a drip under pressure!

quote:

Originally posted by 6mmman:
To expect our fine men and women in uniform to use a 223 with junk bullets to perform their job and then say that it wont kill a 100lbs deer is crazy, or am I missing something here?

IMO it's comparing apples to oranges to compare a military rendition of the .223 to any hunting use of the same round but with expanding bullets....for starters, the military uses fully automatic weapons and round count is far more important to the military than power of an individual shot.

At least historically the greatest use of the soldiers rifle was to keep the enemy down while others can get closer with grenades.....as an example, it is estimated that in WWII only one in a quarter million rounds fired from a soldiers weapon actually killed anyone.....the use is to provide cover.

In deed, it is flawed logic. But the folks that want to use their "platforms" cling to it.

I can see 6mmman's point.
Not exactly a comparrison, but the energy imparted to a 180lb human by a fmj in 5.56 is minimal when compared to what a 60gr or 64 gr expanding bullet with some weight retention would impart.

Marksmanship is King.

6mmman does not know that most combat KIAs are due to artillery.

If you can set up deer so you can snipe them I guess you can say it is effective. Otherwise it is a wimpy round.

I don't think that any .224" bore rifle is probably a good choice for the casual deer hunter whose preparation is equally casual.

However, for the serious hunter/shooter who knows his rifles and loads, a .224" bore rifle with a properly constructed bullet can be an efficient slayer of medium game. I live in eastern Nebraska, where there is a large surplus of whitetails, but limited access to private property on which to hunt them. Under the current Nebraska hunting requlations, I can shoot 2 bucks and as many whitetail does as I want to buy tags for in some deer management units, the so called "seasons choice" units. Over the past 10 yeas, I've shot around 30 whitetail does during our late deer season, after Christmas, with a couple of 1-9" and 1-12" ROT 22-250s and a 1-10" ROT 223 WSSM. I've shoot them with either the 60 grain Nosler Partition or the 64 grain Winchester Power Point bullets. Since there are so many deer, there are often upward of 100 deer in some of the creekbottom fields at dawn/dusk, I can pick my shots and pass on any that I'm not confident in making. It is no trick make 1-shot kills on deer under the conditions that I hunt.

Another Nebraska hunter, Mr. Kevin Petrzilka, killed a 203 4/8" whitetail in Saunders County on 11/19/10 using an old Remington 788 in 22-250. Worst yet, the 788 was scoped was a Tasco and the bullet he used was a 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip. Not my a scope or bullet that I'd shoot for trophy deer, but he used what he had and the force was with him.

Jeff

I might add that the only deer I have not retrieved after shooting was shot with my 30-06.
Not exactly a whimpy round with 165 gr bullets.
But, energy expended into the ground is just that and not anyway more effective than energy expended into the target.Yes my shooting was maybe not exact but anyone who has made a 300 plus yd. shot and had rain wash the blood trail away will get the picture. For the record I don't hunt deer with a 223 preferring 6mm's as my title would suggest. If. however I needed to I would take one with a 22lr.

Also for those of you who would talk about round count expended by the military please explain how a squad on patrol can carry so much ammo. My ruck sack was and is carrying 200 rds in 20 rd mags.

Based on the success that I've had with my Marlin XS7 parts gun in 22-250, using a Stevens 200 223 1-9" ROT barrel rechambered to 22-250, I have put together 4 more of them for my friends who have tried mine. I know that they have had some success, but don't know what bullets they are shooting. I prefer the 60 grain Partition, as it shoots to the same approximate POA and the 60 grain BT and VMax, so I can shoot less expensive bullets for practice or load work up and save the more expensive Partitions for field work.

The 60 grain Partition is a heck of a deer bullet and I would rather shoot a quicker twist 22-250 using that bullet than I would a variety of generally accepted cartridges and factory loads. However, as with many things, YMMV.

Jeff

It funny to me that these discussions always revolve around the cartridge when it is the bullet that does the killing. Some bullets will cause a 22-250 or a Swift to fail at 75 yards but not at 200. Another bullet might work well out to 250 yds in a 223 but are too tough beyond that for reliable expansion. Then there are 22 caliber bullets that perform at all reasonable ranges regardless of inital velocity. Very few people put in the time and effort to get the right combinations but those who do are the ones of us that have confidence in the practice.

As for Chuck Hawks, most of his stuff seems to be amalmagations and re-writes from the volumes of opinons already written by others.

I'm another guy that wouldn't choose my 223 as my first rifle for a trophy deer hunt but I wouldn't refuse the opportunity if I were invited when it was all the rifle I had at the time. The only caveat is as long as I had access to the correct ammo.

Have you ever known a Partition not to expand?

Jeff

I've shot over 50 deer in my short life. I have used everything from a 12 gauge slug to a 6.5mm wildcat. My current deer round here in Indiana is a 357 maximum given our cartridge restrictions for rifle hunting. We are able to shoot 5 deer in my county this year. My cartridge of choice unrestricted for all around deer (mule deer and whitetail) is a 30 cal bullet (150 gr) @ 2700-3000fps. Would I use a 22 cal for deer - yes with a premium bullet, 100-150 yards, broadside shot, no obstructions, and only if I was limited to that caliber. I shoot many coons and coyote each year with the .223 & 22-250. I'm not particularly impressed with the killing power of the .223 cal bullet in less than ideal conditions. Just my 2 cents.

The problem with small calibers is that when a really good buck is spotted and the shot is too long or at the wrong angle most people tend to give it a try anyway, hoping for the best. Those same people will not admit to a crippled but lost deer on a web site like this.

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
Have you ever known a Partition not to expand?

Jeff

Im had a bad experience with Partitions once in a .270.

I had a 3point mule deer buck broadside at about 150-175 yards and was shooting off the top of a big rock for a steady rest. At the first shot he turned 180* and I noticed a lot of rocks go flying behind him. My thought was "How did I miss at that range?" Pumped another in him and then he took off running down the canyon about 50 yards into some willow trees. We came down from above to those willows and when he spooked out he came by me at about 25 yards and I shot him again.

He went down then and died but a close up look at him showed 3 holes in front of his diaphragm and apparently those rounds "penciled" through without expansion.

Put me off the Partitions for good, but that has been around 15 years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
The problem with small calibers is that when a really good buck is spotted and the shot is too long or at the wrong angle most people tend to give it a try anyway, hoping for the best. Those same people will not admit to a crippled but lost deer on a web site like this.

I'm in this camp!!!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
The problem with small calibers is that when a really good buck is spotted and the shot is too long or at the wrong angle most people tend to give it a try anyway, hoping for the best. Those same people will not admit to a crippled but lost deer on a web site like this.

I'm in this camp!!!

Me too and it might be a doe or fawn and I know where of I speak. roger

and with a big gun, angle wrong and you try it anyways--probably a crippled deer.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
and with a big gun, angle wrong and you try it anyways--probably a crippled deer.

Yep, I think these anti .223 folks are admitting to more about thier own hunting style than they normally would. Sad,sad,sad. If the shot isn't right you don't take it no matter if it's a .223, a 44 magnum, a .338WM or a bow.

Terry