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| One of Us |
I second what TC1 says, good shot presentation is just that, good! Bad shot presentation is just that, wait for a better one. I have never passed up a shot with my 22-250's thinking it wouldn't do the job. I just waited for a better shot presentation. The exact same thing I would have done had I been carrying my 6.5x55, 270, 7x57, 338-06, 9.3x64 or 404 Jeffery. Why mess up a perfectly good roast or steak? I hate processing deer that have been shot through the guts. I have never recovered a Barnes 53gr TSX from my 22-250's, and I have tried, and given up. (see last sentence above) I just can't keep them in a deer. I did recover a petal once, in what was left of the vertebrae. Not exactly the shot placement my son was looking for, but that deer didn't go anywhere but straight down. I am fairly convinced that my setup works just fine. All the penetration anyone needs for whatever shot angle that one should consider taking. If you think that 22 centerfires should not be used and will not work for deer. It is simply your opinion. The laws of physics and the real world prove otherwise. Think I may have carry the 22-250 again this year, just because.  | |||
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I guess I'm not "most people" Whether it's deer out back, or hunting thousands of miles away, I pass on any shot I dont think is proper. Growing up, if I had ever brought a deer home shot in the ass I wouldnt have been able to sit on mine for a looong time. I think more people could have used that incentive! | |||
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People grow up with different perspectives. I once hunted with an elderly man who grew up in the back woods of Canada. He gut shot his deer with a 30-06 and 125 gr hollow points. He said no meat was wasted that way. Sure was a mess to clean! | |||
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Why does this thread keep going on? Carpetman and I know that the picture on the box determines effectiveness on game. This new 223 ammo clearly shows a deer. Case closed. http://www.americanhunter.org/...d=45&gid=107&id=1282 | |||
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I'm thinking that most people are "most people". A lot shoot deer with a .223 because they see it on TV, or they were train with it in the military, or they don't like recoil or they are just cheap. BTW Scott, Looks like you can shoot a man on a horse with it too. | |||
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All this is a lot of presumption and assumption. "Most people" who hunt big game don't own a 223. "Most" have a deer rifle, a shotgun, a 22lr and maybe a pistol or two. And if we're going to let the argument devolve to the cartridge and not the hunter's ethics, we might as well admit that guns wound game, not people and handguns commit crime, not people. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Of course a .22lr, .22mag., .223 will kill deer, cattle, people, cats, dogs, pigs, coons, skunk, P-dogs, coyotes and about anything else you care to shoot with them. Now is it ethical to use those cartridges to do so? In the hands of a true skilled hunter (which i believe there are few of compared to the numbers of "Walmart hunters") almost any animal is vulnerable to the small cartridges. The trouble is there are fewer true riflemen hunting now than ever, many have gear obtained at the local Walmart and they have almost no clue what they are doing to start with. I would just say if your competent and proficient with a small caliber i see no trouble in using it but only if its legal. If your not then don't ruin an animal ' cause your stupid. | |||
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[F
Tiggertate Re-read what I said. Most people that shoot deer with a .223 do so because they get exposed to the .223 as suitable for some uses and they do not know any better... No presumption at all. There are a lot of people that shoot deer with them and anything else including 22 LR. See youtube deer hunting .223 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=webs9YRcqog | |||
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One old timer I know here likes the 30-06 and has taken several deer and elk over the last 50 years with one. I got to talking about cartridges with him and he said he has actually shot more big game with a .22 rimfire. -------------------- THANOS WAS RIGHT! | |||
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I heard once that guns kill people, ie commit crimes. Actually it's the bullet that kills people and/or commits crimes. The gun only makes the bullets go really fast ! | |||
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I killed about 15 deer with a .22-250 and plain old Remington 55 grain PSPs. The only difference I can say I noticed between the .22-250 and heavier calibers is that I never got an exit with the .22-250. I only lost 1 deer that I shot with the .22-250, and it was 100% my fault; I hit it low and too far forward. Only a couple of the deer I killed with the .22-250 weighed under 100 pounds. Most were average-sized PA bucks, and the two of them that I actually weighed went well over 200 pounds on the hoof. I can't say a .22 centerfire is the best choice for deer, and it's certainly not my first choice, but it works ok as long as the guy behind the trigger isn't an idiot that can't shoot. | |||
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That's the problem with the 22 center-fires for deer. As Kjjm4 stated it requires perfection from the shooter and his equipment. I consider a 6 1/2% cripple rate excessive. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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To clarify, I flubbed the shot on the deer I lost with my .22-250, and would have lost it even if I was using a .375. I did finally locate it after tracking it for three hours, but somebody else had finished it and tagged it. A bigger caliber rarely makes up for bad shooting. | |||
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Hawk's articles always seem to me like recycled magazine articles from the 70s and 80s. Very conservative and not very curious about boundaries, just the "conventional wisdom" of the time. Never any overtly wrong information but never anything new or interesting to learn from them. And never any updates as bullet technology, twist rates or powder improvements take capabilities forward. Mete, I guess "appropriate" is the core argument. I can vouch for one combination that took close to 100 does over 3 years of culling without fail but it was 220 Swift, not 223 Win. The bullet was the Hornady 52 gr match hp driven to max loads. That bullet has a tough jacket and the usual shot was a chest through and through. Sometimes a head or neck shot when conditions were favorable. One shot per deer but these were young landowners, great shots and had all the time they wanted. Nothing close to 300 pounds, however. That variance could explain a lot of the different opinions about the issue. I can and do take my 223 out deer hunting sometimes in South Texas where my lease is. But I'd never make it my first choice if I went on a paid hunt in Michigan or Alberta where deer have 150 pounds on mine. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I began deer hunting when I was 12, armed with the only rifle I had available- an iron sighted Savage 340 in .222 Remington using factory Winchester and Remington 50 grain softpoints. How was I supposed to know that it wasn't supposed to work? Shot several deer with it before graduating to a .30-30 in my mid 20's- Northern California costal Black Tails in the 100-120 pound catagory, at usually between 50 feet to 75 yards or so. Never had any problems with not having enough knock down, but did live in constant fear of hitting a twig. For the use I put it to, it was a satisfactory tool... and taught me to be very careful about stalking and setting up a shot. Vetting voters= racist. Vetting gun buyers= not racist. Got it? | |||
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You were using what you had to use. I have no problem with that assuming that you are very careful. I killed a nice buck with a .222 once. I paced the distance off at 175 yards. The bullet hit the bucks spine and he died instantly. However the bullet did not penetrate more than 3 inches and disintegrated. There is no real justification for intentionally choosing a 22 center fire for a deer rifle when you have a rack full of more suitable rounds to use. If there is a reason it is probably recoil and a lot of shooters will not own up to being put off by any sort of recoil. | |||
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But sometimes it does through greater penetration and bone shards driving into the vitals. So why not give yourself all of the edge there is? Unless it's some hot dog thing you're doing with little regards or respect for the animal. As SR posted, using a marginal cartridge when you have better available is questional. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Mostly I agree with you. If you just clip one lung or something like that, then a bigger bullet helps. For the record, I used a .22-250 because that's what my dad put in my hands when I was 12. I replaced it with a .30-06 when I was 17 and had enough money saved up. | |||
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 Maybe we can do this again on an annual or is that anal basis.  roger  Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Classy of you to make this a personal insult. You don't know me from Adam, and certainly know nothing you are assuming. I've only used a .22-250 a few times. Each was a one shot kill. I know there are many who don't do that with bigger guns. Killing ability has little to do with the tool involved. | |||
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I don't see how you took that as a personal insult but it wasn't intended as such. However, if you go around sticking .224 bullets into things "just 'cause you can" when you have better tools available, it is indeed a hot dog thing. And too, killing does depend a great deal on the tool used. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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This is why. I'm far from a hot dog and would dare say I have more respect for what I'm doing than most. What is a negligent descision in your opinion isn't in someone elses. We are talking deer here and a pass through with a .22-250 is still full penetration. There is no doubt that a good bullet chosen to go with the velocity can be effective. Maybe not a good recommendation for everyone, but if they can't shoot well enough to take a deer with it they should spend more time on the trigger. | |||
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I live and hunt in FL where we have maybe the most liberal deer seasons of any state. In my zone the general gun season runs from Dec 1 -Feb 17 this year with archery and muzzeloaders starting in Oct. Our deer are small, about the same size body-wise as TX; a 140 lb buck is BIG. Our limit is 2 bucks a day for the entire season, no season limit. For does we have a short 5 day season, but landowners can get all the doe tags they want. Last lease I hunted on, 5 does a day was easy and you can pick your shots. I've never shot a deer with a .223 but I have used a .222 a bunch; I don't subscribe to the commonly heard "if it's brown, it's down" crap and I have no problem letting them walk until a better shot comes along. I know lots of guys that hunt with .223s and 22-250s. With the proper bullet and placement it equals dead deer. I'm planning a 22-250 for the heavier 70-80 grain bullets and I have no doubt it'll do the job. BTW, my 16 y.o. grandson has killed 5 bucks with a TC Contender in .223, including a nice Wisconsin buck way bigger than our little critters down here. But then , we taught him from Day One to WAIT until it's a sure thing. | |||
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Speer makes a 70 grain round nose .224 bullet that they advertise as a bullet for use on deer. In my .225 Win., it is very accurate, even w/ its 1 in 13 twist barrel. BTW, my son was a sniper in Afghanistan. He carried an M4 in 5.56mm most of the time, but if sent out on a specific sniper mission, he used an M24 which is the military version of the Rem. 700 in .308. joe | |||
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In the UK I've used 222rem and latterly my 5.6x50Rmag on our little roe deer (in Scotland). Roe weigh about 45lb max live weight (generally 33lb no head, legs, guts or lungs etc)Common opinion including our continental bretheren is that they don't take a lot of killing - I concur. I've shot a handful with 222rem and 50/55gr softpoints and a larger number with 5.6x50R and 55gr, 60gr and 70gr softpoints (sierra gameking, hornady and speer semi pointed). The 5.6 is no slouch yielding 3,400, 3,300 and 3000fps respectively. Much as I love the rifle and the cartridge I realise there is a noticeable difference in effect compared to a 243 and 85gr soft point. Sure it works but they take appreciably longer to drop. I still use the rifle but not now my dog has died and my pup has yet to be trained. I shoot quite a few texan weight fallow ie less than 100lb live weight. I wouldn't entertain shooting them with my 5.6. Even a 243 and 85gr can be stopped by the nose of a fallow before it gets to the brain. | |||
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What year was this in PA where a .224 was legal for deer? | |||
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I haven't lived in PA for about 10 years but when I lived there, .224 caliber centerfires were legal. I also shot one deer with a 22-250 with Remington 55 gr. bullets. It was the first deer I had ever taken at night with a nuisance permit so I wasn't at my best. With my wife in her nightgown holding the spotlight, I shot and almost took a front leg off. The second shot hit the lungs and put it down in short order. | |||
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IMHO, the problem with this thread is that "deer" are spoken of as if they were all the same. A little Southern 70 pound Whitetail is hardly the same animal as a 275 pound corn fed midwest or northeast deer, not to mention a tough old mature Mulie Buck. With todays super bullets like the tsxs you certainly kill a deer with a .224 although a Texas heart shot might fail. Just took a mature buck Antelope @230 yards, 1/4ing away with an 80 gr .257 TTSX starting @3997 from a 25-06. Now that's an 80 gr 200 Swift, and the lope was a bang flop with through and through. I'm sure my 22-06 wildcat with the 70 gr TSX starting at 3600 would have done the same killing job whereas trying it with a 52 gr TSX in a 223 would have been "take a pass". (same size and weight as a lot of Whitetails) I'd suggest for medium/small Whitetails the smallest women or child couls handle a properly set up 243 or 250-3000 which is a better failsafe option than a 224 varmint rifle. When you get into the pushing 300 pound live weight fat old farm deer or the high country Mulies, bigger is better. While I happen to like a 300 H&H, anyone can handle a 308 that is a sure killer out to 300. Hunting deer with a 224 varmint rifle, reminds me of the 6'4" 250 pound guy who hunts tough old Roosters with a .410 or 28 gauge. I gotta wonder why when a 12 bore, given the huge choice of loads, is a more humane killer and far easier to shoot well. Guess I'm left wondering "why?" | |||
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45-70, What makes you think you would have had to take a pass had you been using a .223 with a 53gr TSX? | |||
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It's just a typical response from someone who has never tried it. Deer just aren't that hard to kill. People seem to forget that part of the equation. The .224 TSX is a very effective whitetail bullet. All my .223's have a 1 in 8" twist and use the 63gn version of it. It's very effective on deer. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Having a friend who regularly shoots Whitetail with "selected" shots always at under 150 yards with the 52 TSX from a 222 Rem mag (quite a bit more velocity than a 223), his experience tells me that a "raking shot" would be taking a chance, especially at 230 yards. Say my lead had been a bit off and I had hit the left hip ? Then I'd be dealing with a 3 legged cripple ...... not my idea of hunting ethics. The unanswered question remains "why" ? There are far better choices than a cartridge (read the latest Handloader) that failed to meet the Army specs for killing soft humans. (as we have found out with the 223 and it's politically correct sidekick the 9mm pistol. Been at big game hunting since age 16 (1958) and about the only "pointy" weapons I have not taken game with are spears and crossbows. IMHO if you cannot handle the the massive recoils and blast of a 243 or something like it, you should not be out hunting big game. Any adult male or female, non-handicapped, who can't shoot a 308 Winchester a'int going hunting with me. If it's not "physical" than it's ego and I'll let it go there. | |||
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Just because you are using the heavier 223 bullets, with the deer picture on the box, doesn't mean carpetman is too. He's still using the old 55 gr varmint bullets simply because he's too cheap to buy better bullets. Besides, with 100% success, according to him, why should he change? His ammo box still shows a picture of a gopher. http://www.midwayusa.com/produ...-ballistic-silvertip ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Anything centerfire is legal for deer and even black bears. The only caliber restrictions we have are .22 or less for small game, .277 or more for elk, and .44 or larger for muzzleloader big game. | |||
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Heck, in the past, I was one of those that questioned the use of 22 cal. My position today is I could kill any deer I wanted to with a 22 cal centerfire, I d just like the new and inexperienced hunter to understand yardage limitations, and importance of Shot Placement. Socialism works great until you run out of the other person's money...... | |||
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I knew you and CM would get that one.  Actually KB, I've never tried it. I have too many other guns in the safe. I did pick up a 6.8 SPC Ranch Rifle that will get some use this year if I'm lucky. I remember you posting some success with your Grendel. | |||
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Perhaps Chuck Hawks should interview a few New Zealand deer cullers from the 1970's and earlier. There are guys in NZ that have shot more deer with .22 centrefires (mostly .222) than Chuck has had hot dinners. I was under the impression that we have better projectiles available now. Maybe American deer are a lot tougher than Kiwi deer or maybe Chuck is ... The hunting imperative was part of every man's soul; some denied or suppressed it, others diverted it into less blatantly violent avenues of expression, wielding clubs on the golf course or racquets on the court, substituting a little white ball for the prey of flesh and blood. Wilbur Smith | |||
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IMHO, people who hunt deer with .224 rifles are like crossbow hunters. The GENERALLY over estimate their ability and the capability of the weapon. None of the advocates on this thread have listed IN DETAIL their self imposed limitations when using a .224 rifle for big game. None of the advocates have explained the necessity of using a .224 rifle/handgun for big game hunting. Absent that, I can only assume it is ego at work as there are plenty of cartridges that are just as easy to shoot, are available in any platform you could wish and are a lot more reliable killers if the shot is not a standing broadside, using premium controlled expansion bullets at 150 yards or less. History repeats itself to anyone who reads gun/hunting history ...... anyone ever heard of the "Imp" ? | |||
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The necessity of my wife using a .223 is the recoil factor. She is a big flincher, so her .223 sports a muzzle brake, zero recoil. Now the limitations that she has with the gun are the same as mine. 1. no shots more than 50yds anything beyond this the chance of brush deflection skyrockets(not hard because this as far as I can see in the woods anyway) 2. broadside shots into the heart/lung on standing deer only. Moving targets present too much variability. 3. Practice, practice, practice. I have my wife shoot 3in targets off sticks while I do my best to make her loose her focus. If you cant hit 3in at 50yds under pressure off sticks, you dont deserve to be out hunting. We do a great deal of shooting at life-size cutouts as well. Knowing where the vitals are, makes a big difference. In the few years she has been hunting whitetail, she has killed 3 deer. Her first year she shot a buck that was probably over 200lbs and the following years she has taken large does. All were complete pass troughs with 60gr partitions and none ran for more than 75yds. All had good blood trails. "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." ---Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Reading some of these I got to thinking about how often I see the polar opposite. I rarely meet someone actually hunting big game with a .224, but find fairly often the guy who's hunting smaller game animals like deer or pronghorn with a cannon. Talk about ego. One that sticks in my mind was a few years ago, on a private ranch in California. I was sitting with my wife when a doe and two little bucks came by. The larger of the two was still a forkie but seemed to small to bother with. I didn't even consider the other one. It was about the size of a starving Great Dane. We watched them walk up the trail toward the top of the ridge. A road huntin' police officer stuck his .300 RUM out the window and blasted the smallest one of the two through the shoulders. He was real proud.  Good thing he had a big enough gun! | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers Article on .22 centerfires for deer
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