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What a great line. Very well said. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Hawk's article has to be one of the most foolish pieces of drivel I have ever read. He lists all the "laws of physics" reasons 22 calibers are not suitable then goes on to say that European 22's ARE suitable because their cartridges were developed for use on deer. Perhaps cartridge names and pictures on the boxes really do make a difference. Then he goes on to compare a 100-200 lb deer to a 5-15 lb animal. Once again what a poor comparison. In many places in America where deer are hunted a 100 lb animal is heavy. Nor is 15lbs the upper end for "small" game either. Am I suppose to believe that my 223 is inadequate for a 70 lb retriever or German Sheppard? Of course not. Yet a lightly built deer weighing a few lbs more somehow hopelessly outclasses the 22 caliber rifles.............well all non European 22's that is. Really..........is there that much difference between a 80lb deer and a 160lb deer? Weighs twice as much sure..........but everything is proportionally bigger. You really think your bullet has to penetrate twice as far because the animal weighs twice as much? Of course not. Same thing applies to a 30lb coyote vs a 100lb deer. Once your bullet gets through the skin and under the ribs it's in the vitals. Some people talk about it and come to the conclusion it won't work. Others actually do it and discover no issues. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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As you are calling Chuck Hawks a dumb A zzz add Bob Nosler's name to that list also. His position is it can, but shouldnt be used. go deal with it.... Socialism works great until you run out of the other person's money...... | |||
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 My oh my. Page 4 going on 5.  This thread seems to have a life of its own.  Good show VD. Oh ! I once caught a large tiger musky on a # 6 Eagle Claw hook.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Although this is always an entertaining debate it comes down to if it's legal in your state and you want to do it, have at it. It's legal in my state, I'd just rather use a 257R, 6.5x55 or 7mm-08. To me, none of them kick much more that a 223 and I feel a little more confident with a little heavier bullet. I won't argue against using a 22 on deer but no one is going to convince me to reach over the three rifles mentioned above to take my 223 deer hunting. If a 223 was all I had, I would use it in a heartbeat. Like Big Nate, I'm more amused with the guy that thinks he needs a 300 Ultramag to kill deer. | |||
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Speaking of, where is the Vapo? I haven't seen him post for a while. | |||
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Howard--"Some people talk about it and come to the conclusion it wont work. Others actually do it and discover no issues". That pretty much says it all. I'll add that if those talking about it throw in something about a premium bullet being required---they aint done it. Plain ol cup and cores work excellently. Scott--The rifles you mentioned don't recoil and blast all that much more to an adult that is an experienced shooter. To a youth the difference is huge. I found that the youth given a good rest, with their good eyesight and shooting a rifle they are comfortable with can pretty much place the bullet where needed which is the biggest factor. I did start reaching past my 30-06 and grabbing my .243---which certainly is not a knock on the 30-06. After several years of witnessing 100% favorable results with .222 and .223 my question is why not reach on past my .243 and grab the .222 or .223 which is what I'll do if I shoot another deer. Not a knock on the .243 either. | |||
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The first time I hunted deer with a rifle it was a Marlin 30 30. I was told by several guys at work that I was under gunned. I got my deer as they did. I think at that time all the mags were the rage. The next gun I used to take a deer was a 30 Herrett in a Contender with a 10" barrel. It worked great, the deer fell over and pawed the air for about thirty seconds. I moved to Indiana and had to use a shotgun or pistol. I used an 870 to take my first deer in Indiana. It was as if it was hit by a sledge hammer. It dropped in its tracks. That slug destroyed the heart and part of the lungs. I had a chance to go back to Kentucky and hunt and I used a 243 Winchester with a one hundred grain bullet. It worked better than the 30 30 and the Herrett but it didn't have the pure power of the slug. That big hole really can do some damage. I have never hunted with a 22 center fire and I will not in less that is all I have and that is the only way for me to get meat. There are to many choices to use that are better. If that is what you want to use that is fine for you. I want some thing that hits harder and makes a bigger hole. No bows and no 22s for me deer hunting. | |||
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I shooter--You got your deer with the 30 Herrett and the 30-30 but the .243 performed better. What differences did you find with the .243? I too use .243 and 100 grain bullets and very pleased with the results. BTW if you actually used a .22 centerfire you might be pleasantly surprised, I know what I have observed has been much more impressive than I would have thought before actually seeing it done. Not trying to change your mind. | |||
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I think if you looked at the energy figures for the 30 Harrett, one with which you have experience, you'll see that it really doesn't need to be into the big numbers to work well. Your comment on Archery equipment is a bit puzzling to me. Arrows zip right through and are very efficient death instruments. You have to hit where it should be, but you really need to do that with whatever you are using. | |||
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I take it that you have never bow hunted, right? OK have you ever witnessed a big game animal taken with a bow and arrow? I've shot around 22-25 mule deer, 5 Elk and 3 black bears with a bow and have been amazed at how quick an animal dies after an arrow passes through the chest. Usually it takes about 15-20 seconds for the critter to tip over and it doesn't make any difference if the stand still or take off running in 15 seconds the lights go out. I've shot elk at 5 yards and then at yardages that are too long to be believed and they all go down. I've probably seen an equal number of critters killed with a bow in comparison to my numbers. I've never lost a critter that I stuck an arrow in and the longest tracking job was probably 400 yards and I don't know how he lasted that long. I've shot bull elk with a rifle that went over 1/2 mile when shot with a rifle before recovery The effectiveness of an arrow is tremendous and surpasses many calibers when both are placed in the same spot just as a .224 caliber bullet when placed in the right spot is deadly. | |||
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Yet to be answered, in any intelligent way, is the basic question of "WHY ?" There is no non handicapped person small or so weak so that they "need" a .224 to hunt deer. Besides which, all the posters appear to be big strong men, not 70 pound triple amputees. Guess no one can admit, it's just an ego trip and has nothing to do with any real need. Lots of things are legal but still questionable such as people who chose to jump out of perfectly good airplanes. Happily the only "animals" they generally kill are themselves and quickly. Not quite the same as leaving a wounded animal to die a lingering, painful death. By contrast, I far more enjoy the outcome of Maj. George Grey who chose to hunt something that could fight back with a marginal cartridge. He ended up dead after a few days of misery. Perhaps all our .224 for deer fans could become Kodiak Bear hunters ? I'm sure Darwin would once again be vindicated. Or they could move out here where Deer share the same turf with Grizzleys and Puma. Again, natural selection would prevail. A fun thread watching so many so fanatic about defending the indefensible....... rather like California politics. | |||
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Where I live in Idaho we hunt Pumas as you call them or Mt. Lions as we call them most commonly with a .22Mag revolver which the Great State of Idaho allows for hunting Mt. Lions, in fact they allow any rimfire pistol or rimfire rifle for hunting Mt. Lions. A .223, 22-250, and .222 would be considered overgunned but that's Idaho .....not Wyoming. | |||
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I hunt where there are griz, lion, and wolves. Almost noone "needs" to hunt in N.A. We have welfare programs that make truly poor people hate them. When people insist that others should think the way they do, hunt within guidelines they have set for themselves, and think they are somehow wise, or at least more informed than those they are looking down their nose at and belittling, they give the impression much like the idiots in California who insist they know whats best for everyone else. | |||
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As for "Why?" Why not? If it's effective and legal what's the problem? People hunt big animals with handguns that to me don't seem as effective as a .223. I've seen a big Mulie dropped at 235 with a TAC20. The guy that uses it is very good with it and knows what it will do. Just because he can use it effectively doesn't mean I would recommend others using it in the same manner. Likewise I don't tell him it's not a good idea for him. After all his success I'd look the fool. | |||
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Still no answer to "why". The only answers are because we are allowed to. BTW shooting a treed Puma out of a tree hardly qualifies as hunting. Right up there with shooting a deer tied to a tree...... Guess there will never be an answer to "why" because admitting it's just an ego trip can't be done by those with the ego. Insofar as comparing a heavy handgun to a varmint rifle ...... that only demonstrates a lack of undersatnding of just was a terrible killing machine a 300 gr 44 caliber bullet rumbling along at 1100 fps is, compared to a .224 55 gr bullet ar 3200-3600. Right up there with the "expert" who has no experience or knowledge of how deadly a sharp broadhead is at only 300 or so fps. When Mr. Griz is chewing on you after you've pizzed him off with your entire 223 magazine, you best hope there is someone there with a 44 magnum loaded with hardcasts. Otherwise you can join the Major in the hereafter. (interesting to note that all these small bore experts could not even explain what happened to him, where, when and why) Quick ! google it to show us your expertise.... chuckle! I think we have a new group to join the "long range wounders" (sniper wannabes), lets call em: "the small bore yes I cans" .....Wonder how many of them even know what the Imp was and it's dismal record on humane kills ? If you can't handle a 250-3000, 243, 244 or 257 Bob, please take up golf. The Goddess Diana will thank you. | |||
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The fact that you're ranting now about dangerous game and being insultive isn't going to be persuasive. This WAS about shooting deer. I don't recommend a .224 to people because the shooter does need to exersize good judgement and if they are asking about what to use they don't have enough experience to make sound judgements. For those folks I recommend a lot of practice and a guide. While I generally agree with going a bit bigger I cannot say that the .223 won't work because it does. It works better than I would have thought. The .22-250 even better. To take the opionon it won't result in dead deer is foolish. Much the same as thinking an arrow at 300fps would be ineffective. Look, Think what you want. Don't expect your opinion to go unchallenged when you tell people something they know is different. | |||
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Some people take great pride in not knowing. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Some people take pride in killing their first deer at 16 and having taken at least (mostly more) one/year until age 70. Having killed more woodchucks than you will ever see, I know how varmint cartridges perform on even the largest woodchuck, which might weigh 10% of an average eastern Whitetail. Typically the bullet will turn the insides to mush and not exit. IF you are selective in your shots, putting the bullet in the heart lung area and avoiding major bones there is no doubt a Whitetail CAN be killed with a varmint cartridge. The question still unanswered is why (since you are hunting in "rifle season") you would chose a marginal cartridge over the 100s that are superior ? Your 22-250 with its 50-60 gr bullet may look impressive on paper but a plain old 300 gr hardcast from a 44 magnum rifle will break both shoulders of that deer (should your world class markmenship be a bit off), leave a good blood trail (two holes) should it be on and even penetrate end to end should the deer decide to leave the area. As for game that fights back ..... one of you "experts" saw a Mule Deer killed with some .224. Here, at least, we have at least four species that can fight back (Griz, Blacks, Pumas and Wolves) and several that have been been known to if provoked (Elk and Moose). Pop a pizzed off cow Moose with your .224 and you'll really be in deep dodo. As with most Internet "experts", the ego overruns common sense. The "WHY" will never be answered, because it cannot w/o admitting the truth. No ethical hunter would ever go afield to hunt any animal with any weapon that was not the best he/she could afford and shoot well. No minds will be changed, no deer will be saved from horrible deaths by ego driven people who want bragging rights around the table down at Morty's, the "WHY" will never get a satisfactory answer. It appears that our state is to legalize .224 caliber in 2" long cartridges for deer. So I suggest you all sign up for a Mulie hunt in the Wyoming Range, Upper Green or Gros Ventre mountain areas with your varmint rifles. With good luck you'll stumble on a Griz kill and get a final lesson in the effective nature of .224 Partitions or Barnes on something with teeth and claws. Since we have a lot more idiot humans running around the world than we do Grizzly bears, the cynics among us would view it as a "win, win". Just don't look at the man behind the curtain. | |||
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First of all we aren't talking about woodchucks so ANY analogy comparing the two is meaningless. My .223 deer cartridge (not varmint cartridge) is a 63 gn TSX over 25.5 gns of Varget powder in a Lake City case with a CCI BR4 primer. This is a far cry from a varmint cartridge. When I take the shot I do it with complete confidence. Through nothing more than ignorance you assume this setup is marginal. I can tell you from actual experience it isn't. As to "why," I didn't bother answering it because I'm not trying sell anyone on the idea, including you. That said, I will answer the question. The reason why I do it is because I enjoy it and I enjoy hunting. Where I live I can harvest five deer per season and my hunting property is thirty minutes from my home. Our hunting season is four months long. There is absolutely no pressure to shoot when I'm in the woods and I have 4 months to get the job done. Yes, this cartridge does have it's limitations but to me that's one of it's charms. My self imposed limit while using this setup is 200 yds and I wait for either a broadside or front chest area shot. If the shot doesn't present itself I don't take it. That said, if a hunter uses patience it's a damn rare occasion that one of those two shots doesn't present itself. The cartridge does have it's limitations just like every other cartridge in exsistance. Used within those limitations it's as effect as any other cartridge on deer. As to bears, wolves and pumas, if we were talking about those you might have a valid point but we aren't. Try harder to stay on subject and don't assume everyones situation is like yours. Lastly, layoff the ethics bullshit because it's obvious you don't have a clue about what you're talking about, speak from complete ignorance and it only makes you look like a fool. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I used to belong to a hunting club in Mississippi. A majority of Mississippi deer aren't much bigger than a northern coyote. I can understand Mississippi hunters using varmint cartridges for their deer hunting. Some areas in south Texas are the same way. Really small deer. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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It was only a matter of time until the name calling (absent facts) started. As I pointed out early on, TC1, Deer are not all the same. Your dog sized deer (I lived in MS) are not quite the same as a big fat corn fed Eastern/Midwestern Whitetail or a tough old Mulie spending his life way, way higher than the tallest spot in MS. With no evidence to the contrary, I assume you have never hunted big deer either close up, not to mention at extended ranges. I also said that under the proper conditions a varmint cartridge will kill a small to medium sized deer. So I guess there is no "one size fits all" answer EXCEPT that plain old 308 Winchester with a premium 150-165 gr bullet will kill ANY deer in the USA, taken within an ethical range/conditions envelope AND no 223 can be said to do so. A 223 works fine on a big Yote which are about the size of your deer ...... that doesn't make any .224 THE universial choice for deer. Trying to make it so is UNETHICAL, as any experienced hunter of deer beyond MS would tell you. Finally, it's clear you've never seen, not to mention shot a 15-20 pound Woodchuck. There has yet to be deer born in MS as tough as a big old Pasture poodle. When I lived in MS we hunted deer with dogs and buckshot. Friend had a custom 16ga Parker "buckshot double" that was specially bored to shoot plain old single 0 buck in a very small pattern. Paper shells, felt wads, no shot cups and deadly to 40 yards in the swamps inland from Biloxi. | |||
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How many deer have you taken with a .223? -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I haven't killed any. Nor have I driven any railroad spikes with a tack hammer neither. I have better tools. What's your point? Aim for the exit hole | |||
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The point is both simple and easy to grasp. Your answer speaks volumes concerning your credibility with the subject at hand. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Stop trying to deal in absolutes. Is a .223 always the best choice for a deer cartridge? -Nope, probably not. Does it work when used by a competent marksman with proper bullets? - absolutely. That's really all there is to this discussion. | |||
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More drivel from Larry Root.  | |||
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My knowledge of the issue is probably much greater than yours. I knew a lady in TN that each year took her deer with a Stevens single shot .22. It was the only rifle she owned. That doesn't make the .22 a deer cartridge. And I've known numerous fellows in WV that have been taking deer with the .223 and .222 for years and years. I've even reloaded ammo for them. Old beat up 340's and 788's. I doubt that any of them have ever shot a deer beyond 50 yards. I have also found the dead deer on my property that were shot with the mattel rifles and the shooters not only didn't have the skilled to use their "platforms", they didn't have the woods skills to follow up the game after they wounded it. 'Course you never read about that sort of thing. It's always DRT at some exotic distance. So my knowledge and credibility is alive and well thank you very much. So you go ahead and shoot deer with your mattel rifles and when the deer runs off, you can just get back in the truck and tell your buddy, "looks like I missed. He didn't flinch or nothing." Aim for the exit hole | |||
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The simple fact is no, it isn't. Not even close. You've never done it and only speak from emotion, not experience. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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You know you've hit a nerve when the "stalking trolls" start calling you names (while hiding their own identity.) Briefly I'll recap my opinions: 1. A .224 cartridge in the hands of a ethical hunter and well above average marksman, equipped with the proper ammo can kill a +-100 pound Whitetail. 2. There are far superior cartridges for those same deer as well as ones far larger, with a beaten zone out to 250 yards such as my 99R loaded with 130 ge TSXs at 2900 fps. 3. For the rare times when a 400 yard shot is the only option for the expert marksman, a 30 caliber magnum with a premium 150-168 bullet is a fail-safe choice. 4. When hunting in areas where other potentially dangerous game may be encountered, any .224 rifle could get you in trouble. 5. Having been killing deer for 54 years with bows, handguns, smoothbore/rifles shotguns, muzzle loaders and cartridge rifle. I believe my experience "out among them" exceeds most others afield today. You may disagree, as is your right, but I know when I was a "ute", I learned a lot from those who had trod the woods and plains for far longer than I had been alive. I am a hunter, not a tactical or sniper wanna be. I have never even shot at a deer or even an Antelope at 400 yards and yet, have never had a season w/o meat in the freezer. You can never be too close! 6. Any non-handicapped person can handle a 308 class cartridge in a properly set up rifle with appropriate ammunition. As the thread is degenerating into insults,name calling and the entry of trolls who haunt many sites just to generate hatred, I think it's time to just lurk on this thread. Anyone who wishes to have a further adult discussion on the issue is welcome to PM me. | |||
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The simple fact is no, it isn't. Not even close. You've never done it and only speak from emotion, not experience.[/QUOTE] It's pretty obvious that you went to public school down in Mississippi 'cause that's about as dumb a response as you'll get in here. I've never closed a vise on my fingere; I've never sky dove into a live volcano; there are a myriad of things I haven't done but I have enough sense to know they are not a good idea. So my emotion isn't directed at the competent hunters that do use a .223 within it's limits for whatever reason, my emotions are directed at trolls like you with your "you ain't never done it so's you can't have any knowledge of it" bullshit. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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All emotion but no experience puts you at a serious disadvantage here. Maybe you'll figure that out one day. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Shoot a deer with a 223 and it runs off. Dummy you didn't use enough gun. Shoot a deer with a 30-06 and when it runs off its. Dummy learn how to shoot. Go figure. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I haven't noticed anyone calling you names. You however have directed some pretty insulting comments at others. Basically what you have to say can be boiled down to, "if you don't do it my way you are a fool"! I really wouldn't be surprised if people called you names with that mindset. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Some of the people on this thread remind me of those who talk about how they NEED a heavy duty truck yet everytime you see them it's empty and the bed doesn't even have a scratch in it. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Fair enough. So tell us what about your expirence with larger calibers has convinced you the use of 22 center fires is not a good idea? Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I'll certainly concede that it is a stunt, ego trip or anything else you want to call it if someone can explain to me how a bullet--even .22 cal that is driven through a deers heart, lung, or liver or combination thereof is not going to kill it fairly close to where it got shot. If it will penetrate steel then it's a no brainer that it will penetrate into the vitals. Until this explanation is given, I put the nay sayers into the category of misinformed and non experienced--except on their keyboard. Certainly if it is hit in a bad spot, you'll cripple it only---hmmm imagine this--same is true with the big boomers. | |||
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Of course, no matter what sort of experiences I have had there will be someone in cyberspace that will top it. No matter what, they have done it closer/farther with a bigger/smaller cartridge under worse conditions.etc. etc. I have killed a variety of game animals with rifles chambered in .338 on down to .260. Elk, mulies, and WTs. I have killed a few truck loads of Ghogs and Pdogs with .222's, .223's. and 22-250's. FWIW, I won the WV state championship for 100/200 yds one year and the next I finished 2nd at 100 yards and 1st at 200 yards. Using a ta-da .223. The next year I moved away. I don't shoot deer with a .223 for the same reason that I don't elk hunt with a 7-08 even though I have probably shot both of those cartridges at least as much as most in this room. I have better tools in my box. I worship at the alter of "heavy for calibre" bullets. I don't understand why someone would think that a 180gr bullet from a .300WM at 3000fps will do anything a 180gr bullet from a 30-06 at 2800fps won't do. Other than the "boyhowdylookwhatIcando" factor, I don't understand why someone would pack around a 7mag so's he could shoot 140's when a 7-08 or a .280 will give you all the velocity you can use. And the folks that crow about the flatter trajectory haven't spent too much time in a ballistic book and few could shoot competently at the distances where it would be meaningful. Folks like my LOL in TN and the guys in WV and the herd cullers are not like hunters. They have a specific job to do. And they have multiple targets and multiple opportunities. They can wait until things are perfect or let the animal walk. If a trophy animal walks out, he gets a free pass since that isn't what they are there for. They don't grab their platform and arkansas the shit out of the hapless animal and hope for the best. When I was fishing bass tournies, conventional wisdom was to rig for the largest fish you hoped to catch in the worse conditions you might encounter. That's excellent advise for hunting also. To steal someone's tag line, you want a rig that will handle things when they are all wrong, not when they're just right. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Howard don't be so hard on him. He obviously has never used a vise a lot and is smart enough not to jump out of a perfectly good airplane. He is a true believer and we should know that all true believers (google Obama for clarification) are never bothered by the facts or results from people with extensive deer hunting experience over the whole USofA. He is either on an ego trip, like the guy who Goose hunts with a .410, or just cannot handle the awesome recoil of a 243/7mm/08/308/338Federal cartridge. So a few deer die a painful lingering death, he'll never see them as they do and a human gut shot with a .224 Varmint cartridge will be dead in a few minutes at most. So you see it's a win win for the 223 spray and pray crowd who probably hunt with green trip penetrators as they will penetrate steel and most deer have steel hides. As for yet another of his errors: should you hit a mature 250 pound+ deer in the hips on a broadside shot with a varmint cartridge, you will have a three legged deer that will run away. Same shot 150 gr TSX from a 308 and you'll have a downed deer with TWO broken hips going nowhere. Clear that any knowledge either first hand or acquired from real experts is ignored or lacking. | |||
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Can't use a .224 in areas of dangerous game? What game is more dangerous than another man armed and shooting back? | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers Article on .22 centerfires for deer
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