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just click here /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | ||
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I think what stuck out to me in the article was his comment "the average hunter will be lucky to get 1 shot at a deer in a year" Holy crap!! Is that actually true? | |||
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Ahhh yes.  Chuck Hawks is entitled to his opinion but he seems to state it as fact. People should be able to hunt with what they want as long as it's legal. He seems to dog us Texans a little in the article but we have 100lb deer so a 223 with a decent bullet should be plenty with proper shot placement. As far as one shot a year on a deer. I hunted a lot last season and had exactly one shot on a legal deer. Only allowed to tag a doe 4 days out of the season and bucks have antler restrictions. Come to think of it, we need another thread on antler restrictions.  | |||
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Blah blah blah blah blah.... Same old song and dance. I wonder if Mr Hawks has even tried to use a .22 centerfire on deer? For that matter I have never seen any information as to exactly what qualifies him to be so verbose as to the topic of firearms and munitions to start with. Sure .224 bullets are not ideal to all deer hunters in all situations, but they sure do seem to do well on all the deer I've used them on. No, they don't always give a good blood trail, but then again I could say the same think about most every other caliber I have ever killed numerous deer with. Most of the time when I hunt with a .224 cartridge its over some food source and always shot from a rest. I don't get the shot I want I don't take it, plain and simple. Most of the time when I fire there is no tracking involved. If I only got one shot a year at deer I'd quit hunting. When I was a freshman in college my roomie and I would go through 9-10 deer a year our selves. I like to eat'em. They're tasty. | |||
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.223 developed as a civilian varmint rifle. Guess a 300 pound man is a varmint as he has no antlers. Very obviously this guy has no field experience--just another keyboard blowhard. If he can explain how a bullet that takes out heart, liver or lung or combination thereof is not goiung to kill a deer, I'll be all ears. | |||
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The opinions of those with no actual experience continue to spread the lies. Just because he thinks it shouldn't work, does not mean it doesn't. My first question would be: Exactly how many deer/antelope have you shot with 224 centerfires? ZERO perhaps? | |||
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Three weeks ago I shot three Fallow bucks with a 222, The first two head shot, instant demise, and one shot in the chest which broke a front leg, the animal took five steps and toppled over dead. When the chest of the last one was opened it was full of blood. Rifle a 1960's BSA Majestic, ammo Prvi Partizan. I've been shooting deer for some time now and know when to shoot and at what part of the animal, done right the 222 is pretty good. It's the only less than 6.5mm calibre rifle I use on deer, it's got me a few animals over the years and we are the best of friends.  No 6mm will ever come between us  | |||
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 Good article. Nicely written. Looks like it rubs the fur the wrong way on this forum.I think those who read it objectively will gain knowledge from it. Those who don't will continue to do their own thing no matter what. A true devotee will always find an argument against reason.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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222rem was very popular for roe deer in Sweden about 1970-1990 it weights up to 60pounds carcass weight here no problem for a .22 . Now wildboar is very common in the southern so most poeple hunt with 6,5mm-9,3mm cartridges. 22savage is fairly common for both roe hunting with driving dogs and capercaillie with barking/standing dogs(also 22hornet and 22wmr). | |||
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Whether you agree with the guy or not, the article is informative and straight forward. ****AND*** nowhere in it do you find any pointless personal attacks like immediately started popping up in this thread. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Three men died in an auto accident of verying I. Q s and were presented to St Peter. The first man of I. Q. 140 was taken to St Peter where upon St Peter told him that a seat was reserved for him with the nuclear physicists that had already been bought aboard. The second man of I. Q. 100 was bought to St Peter where upon he was informed that a place for him had been reserved at the checkers boards and card games tables and that he should enjoy the games. The third man with an I. Q. of 60 was bought to St Peter where upon St Peter quickly asked him how his .223 was working for hunting deer..... Some things are simply self evident.....   /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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A 223 loaded with this Barnes 55 gr Triple shock will kill just fine. Just have to hit them in the correct spot as is true with any caliber.  this Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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I do agree with him that a 80 grn 22 cal and an 80 grn 6mm at the same vel is not going recoil any differant. But, a 223 with a 64 grn win kicks far less and does a fine job when kept within it's limits. Hey wait, that applies to any cartridge!  | |||
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And the third man replies to St. Peter "just fine if you do your part" St. Peter sends him to the happy hunting grounds where he doesn't have to try and have conversations with a nuclear physicist with no common sense, and is not stuck playing board games and cards for all of eternity. Yes, some things are self-evident. Especially to those of us that have successfully used 224 centerfires on deer and antelope. | |||
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I value learning from the EXPERIENCES of others, not their opinions. If they have EXPERIENCE on the matter it's a pause to see if that information squares with your own EXPERIENCE of the past and the EXPERIENCES of others. Simple. Everyone has an opinion on topic X, not everyone has EXPERIENCE on topic X. Again simple. | |||
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I have shot deer with every thing from 22rf to DGRs 223 and 22-250 inclued. They well all kill deer and if the shot is placed wrong they well all wound deer.  awayI perfer at least 150gr bullet traveling at least 2400 fps just seems to work very well. When one uses the smaller calibers one limits ones self to the shots he can take. I perfer to beable to drive the bullet into the vitals from any angle if I have too. For many many years one shot at a deer was common one deer allowed per year. Lots of young hunters don't realize how good they have it now days. In many states one can shoot many deer wasn't always like that. | |||
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excellent response.....loved it /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I'd still like to hear of APPROPRIATE use for a 223 with premium bullets for whitetail up to 300 lbs. No 'only head shots' etc. Including quartering away shots .Within 200 yds perhaps.Bullet performance details. BTW, I still hear the terrible term 'brush busting' cartridge .It should be banned.Any bullet can be deflected and I've done it with 44 mag, 45-70, 6.5x55 ! | |||
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For me, I wont speak for what anyonese does, broadside or nearly so, to 150 yds. If I dont have that offered or cant put myself or the kid I'm guiding into that position, the trigger doesnt get squeezed. I know the land I hunt, and know the patterns of the deer, if I pass on a shot today,I'll work for one I want tomorrow. Everyone makes their own choice of how they hunt, and should use the rifle/caliber choice appropriate for it. | |||
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Plus 1 on that. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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A .223 with a premium bullet has always worked fine for me. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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In Washington state, this is quite true US Navy RETIRED NRA LIFE MEMBER | |||
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I have no experience hunting deer with a 223. I open the safe during hunting season and can't seem to reach over my 257R, 6.5x55 or 7mm-08 to grab a 223. I personally don't feel the need to try it because the 3 calibers I mentioned are perfect for deer with minimal kick. I also really enjoy hand loading those 3. My best friend is using a 223 this year on my land. He has a SCAR 16 he wants to use. I loaded him up some 60 grain partitions. Hell, it'll probably be suppressed now that it's legal this year in TX. If he wants to do some tactical whitetail hunting, more power to him. Whatever floats his boat. | |||
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Gentlemen, why does someone always have to bring up the fact one can't take quartering away shots, etc. with a 223? I don't think I've every heard anyone say a 223 can be used for ANY kind of shot on a deer. It's just as ludicrous to say that as to say one can take a 300 yard shot with a bow. You have to stay within the limitations of whatever tool you are using to hunt with be it a spear or a 338 Lapua Magnum.  The load. Note the use of the premium bullet.  The range: 252 yards. Distance traveled by victim after shot: less than 10 feet. Not a 100 lb. Texas mini-deer by the way. | |||
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Take it as a personal attack if you will, but I truly meant it as a question. I've read much of his drivel over the years on the web and I would like to know what qulifies him to be an authority on the subject. I know far too many people who do something one time and assume that the outcome, good or bad, is the finite answer. I also know people who see someting written on the internet and automaticaly acept it as gospel. I learned a long time ago that there are a few things in life that people like to repeat and accept as truth even though they have never tried them for themselves. Especially when it comes to hunting and fishing. The average adult doe here weighs about 75lbs If I listend to all the gun writers and many of the average hunters I would think that I needed a 7mm Remington Magnum or a 300 Winchester Magnum to kill them. While I am willing to learn from others experiences I'm glad my IQ's high enough that I don't accept their OPINION as fact. If I had I would have missed out on a lot of fun and some good eating, and the world would still be flat. Here's a fact: In the last fifteen years I have not lost a single deer shot with a .224 centerfire. I know the limitations of what I choose to hunt with, be it bow, firearms, or Chevrolet truck. I like a challenge and I choose to make things more difficult sometimes because I'm lucky enough to hunt in an area with greater than 30 deer per square mile, a four month long season, a bag limit of 6 and over the counter extra doe tags. I will continue to enjoy my sport and won't project my ethics and opinions on how others choose to enjoy theirs as long as they are not breaking the law or degrading the resouce to the detriment of the game animals or other hunters. | |||
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I don't use .224 caliber centerfires often on deer but have should a couple with a 22-250 and one with a 222. One of those shot with the 22-250 was 360 yards away and DRT. I don't consider the 22-250 marginal for deer but a perfectly adequate deer gun; the 223 isn't very far behind the 22-250. | |||
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Unfortunately St. Peter was using an OLD IQ test, long since discredited...probably something along the line of the Stanford-Benet IQ test St. Pete learned about back when he was still a newly-minted choir-boy. It tested the ability to manipulate the English language, not field-craft learning ability, nor the ability to fathom how to kill deer DRT. If Mr. Hawks doubts the abilities of both .224s and 6 m/ms to reliably kill deer (as it appears), then you all know why I don't treasure Mr. Hawks' gems of wisdom. And I don't. He reminds me of many others in all fields of life who may know something and not hesitate to tell everyone all about it, even if what he knows isn't completely thought out or the whole of the truth. I do like to use larger cartridges for deer and almost everything else which one might call "big game" as opposed to "small"game". But, I know one doesn't need to use what I enjoy. I have killed deer with the .22 LR, .222 Remington, and the .219 Improved Zipper, and I wouldn't be afraid to use any of them again, on any size deer. When I choose to hunt, I select the shots as well as the rifles and cartridges I take. So it isn't a question of whether the cartridge is a "good" one. It is a question as to whether my choice of shooting in the circumstance at hand was a good one. As I try to make it a practice to actually hunt carefully and well, rather than just blaze away, my results are usually "good" enough to fully satisfy my conscience. | |||
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Are you trying to tell me I wasted my money on those pills I bought that make your dick larger. | |||
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theback40---I was high bidder on a penis enlarger. Got the thing and it was a magnifying glass with instructions to not use it in the sun. This article is some guys OPIINION with nothing to indicate any experience. Why should we accept his opinion anymore so than anyone else? | |||
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Of course it's an opinion. Even if it's backed up by experience, it's still an opinion. I doubt that anyone has killed enough deer with a .223 to make an absolute statement. The ones I see from folks that I would tend to believe usually come with a modifier that the shot must be taken under good to ideal circumstances. Since the enhancement of the .223 with the tigher twist and bullets that are more appropiate for deer sized game, I've changed my ideas somewhat and would rank the .223 with a 1/9 barrel and a correct bullet right along with a .243. If I were hunting up behind the house, where if things weren't ideal, I could just go home and hunt another day, I might be tempted to try a .223. But if I'm traveling half way acrost the US to hunt, you'd better believe I'm gonna be packing something that will carry the mail and get-er-done under adverse conditions. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Yea, kind of like a bow or a muzzleloader. You even see long and impassioned diatribes about how a 300 Win. Mag. bullet must be placed well. Why is this so hard? Of COURSE you have to take into consideration the limitations of whatever tool you are using, be it accuracy, range or power, but it doesn't mean any one tool is inadequate. | |||
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If the guy is a decent shot thats all it should take! Most hunters in the west only get one deer tag. | |||
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Great point. I'd be interested to hear from the the guys with experience. Do you mainly hunt with 223 on your property/lease? Is it something you would take on an expensive trophy hunt out of state? | |||
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I would be more likley to use a 223 on my place where I know what kind of shot I'm getting. Would I take one to Saskatchawan or somewhere for a trophy deer hunt? Not a chance. | |||
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not a snowball's chance in hell.... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Me too. But on local ground I'll use the .222 When I go bush it's at least a 260 Rem up to a .375 that goes walkies with me | |||
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That statement, might be just exactly what causes much of the problem(?) concerning useage of the various .224's for deer hunting. If a person feels comfortable with it on their home range why not use it elsewhere? An additional aspect that I have seen brought up is would you take a shot at an actual trophy buck witn one of the .224's even on your home range. Some people claim that they would not try a shot at a real/genuine trophy buck even in their backyard with one of the .224's. If a hunter is confident enough with a certain caliber in one situation then why the hesitancy in another. I see it simply as a matter of choice. It seems readily clear that some folks don't see things the same way. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Here's some input from the "Brit" viewpoint: Well, in the Irish Republic, after the gun control measures in the 1970s the ONLY deer legal calibre was a twenty-two centrefire and for most parts the calibre of choice in the Irish Republic was .22-250. Also, for fact, in the deer forests of Scotland (not really forest at all but open moorland) where shots at 200-300 yards were taken many advoctaed the .220 Swift. But the likes of Chuck Hawks put paid to that with legislation in Scotland and England in the 1960s that BANNED any calibre under .240" diameter for any deer except roe deer. Odd then that in the 1970s twenty-two centrefire was the ONLY legal calibre in the Irish Republic but a totally prohibited calibre in parts of the United Kingdom! As for 6mm? I guess that Chuck Hawks has never heard of the .240 Holland and Holland Express aka .240 Apex that pretty much began the use of 6mm calibre for sporting purposes? I read Chuck Hawks but I also read my horoscope...amd mostly I don't beleive that always! | |||
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I can remember a .222 hitting a nice buck on the spine at 150 yards 40 years ago. The bullet penetrated about 3 inches for a DRT kill. Lousy performance. Not to be repeated by me. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers Article on .22 centerfires for deer
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