375-06 on left 380 howell on right

http://www.hunting-rifles.com/index.htm

yes its a proprietary cart and its 50 fps slower than factory 375 h+h ammo (not too shabby) but 4 down in an average 06 rifle seems cool for the handloader. maybe a lever or pump action for those inclined. yes there is the 375 hawk, whelen, and a.i. but this is the biggest of them all.

Yep it is the longest case. I have played with it. Actually the brass in 338. You actually have equal or maybe even less "net" volume than say a 380 Gibbs (if he had made one.) While that long neck looks great you end up just filling it with the bullet.

I have my own wildcat case. A 280 blown out and 40 deg shoulder moved forward. Testing it at 2.54" against the 340Howell at 3.6" my case gave equal gross volume and greater net volume. Thicker brass would be my guess. The Howell brass is not cheap.

If I wanted the most from an 06 mag I would take the Gibbs design use a 06 cylinder brass or 35 Whelen. Even if you can extend the mag the bullet is longer enough for you to move the bullet out and still have plenty in the case.

I drew this up when someone was asking about the 9.3-66 in a 338. (it should read 336-06 & 338-06AI) It would look the same in 375. The Howell brass and Sako66 are basically the same length.

thanks for the info.

came accross this one,

this is similar to yours...

it seems the 375 hawk would be the most simple and cost effective but the 380 seems so cool i dont know why it is not more popular

quote:

this is similar to yours

Its close. My neck in 338 is .31" the shoulder is blown out to .458". I measure 80.4gr water(norma brass) the 340 howell with the longer neck is 78.3grs. If you fill the neck with bullet you gain nothing. (the norma brass will give you about 2-2.5grs more water capacity than other brands. however it is a touch softer. I use it because I found that I started getting .0005 head expansion at between 63-65,000 so I only load to that level.

I had looked at using Howell brass to handle the 375 & 416 versions of my wildcat. He kept delaying the delivery for over a year so I gave up. Took it slow and used 280 brass all the way up to 416. He had a good idea but the net gain isn't there over the Hawke much less a Gibbs. Plus the cases were only available from him. Hawke had some good press early on that helped them.

Take the 9.5x66 and neck it up or better yet make an AI out of it like the green lines. Then if possible load it to 3.6" Even at 3.4" it does give you more capacity because the shoulder is moved forward instead of that super long neck of the Howell.

Cheap way to go would be take a 375 barrel. Find someone with a Gibbs reamer that would take the right pilot. Then use a neck throater to finish. Send some fired cases to Hornady and they will send you a set of custom dies.

I believe the Howell is the same with a neck that is an RCH longer and does not add anything to the popular 375 Hawk.

The 375 Hawk case is easy to make from '06 brass found everywhere. An excellent choice shooting a 235 gr bullet @ 2800 fps.

quote:

I believe the Howell is the same with a neck that is an RCH longer and does not add anything to the popular 375 Hawk.

If you look at the picture above you can see that not only is the neck longer but the shoulder is moved forward. The neck doesn't gain you anything but the shoulder move does. It is several % larger. But it is still only a few FPS more.

What does it offer that can't be done with a 9.3x62 or 9.3x64? Expensive brass, expensive dies ... sounds like a wildcatters dream.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

What does it offer that can't be done with a 9.3x62 or 9.3x64? Expensive brass, expensive dies ... sounds like a wildcatters dream

Keep in mind this comment comes from someone with more wildcats than factory. Bottom line the Howell nor the Hawke can really give you anything more that a few FPS (the game you shoot would never know the difference) over the 9.3x62 and nothing over the 9.3x64.

They do make an excellent topic around the campfire.

Fair enough. The only wildcat that I've considerd "designing/building" from scratch is a .411 on a shortened RUM case ... something useable with pistol projectiles through to the 400gr Woodleigh. The Woodleigh would only need to clock 2200-2300fps for me to be really happy. A modern-day 10.75x68 for someone that still misses that cartridge. Maybe one day ...
Cheers...
Con

quote:

.411 on a shortened RUM case

Sounds a lot like a 411 version of the 416AR the guys here in Houston are playing with.

i think i asked jeffeosso to make one ( 411 a.r. )but he is content with the 416. the 41 cal barnes xpb's would be neet to fire out of it. i like the idea of the 411 as well cuzz the pistol bullet factor too. that is why i love the idea of the 470 a.r. which i am having built. the 416 has a weight range from 300 to 450 but the 411 has a weight range of 170 to 400 gr. and plenty-o-cheap 300ish gr pistil bullets


barnes xpb

the easiest way i think to make this shortened rum (404 jeffery) round would be to neck up the 375 dakota to the 411. but if you dont mind the belt the 411 kdf will do.

a wildcat idea i had for the 411 was to do it on a steyr brass like the 416 aagaard but i think the 411 wsm makes more sense of a compact big bore for going through thick brush.

boom stick,
There is also a 411Bowman (I think that's its name) based on the 458WM case I suppose. Like a Taylor but for 0.411" projectiles but I've never been actually able to locate dimensional information on the Bowman. The ability to shoot pistol projectiles is a gimmick for some, but personally it allows a lot more shooting practice on the cheap. Hence I have a few 35s, and a Capstick ... although nobody imports pistol projectiles in 0.475" in Australia . If Hornady/Ruger ever team up and get around to putting a 450/400NE into the Ruger No1 and provide us with the ammunition ... the 0.411" bore may just rise again. A 411AR I may also have been interested in, but the case capacity seemed to offer more than I personally needed or wanted.
Cheers...
Con

Boom stick

Have you looked at the 411 Hawk (http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm)? It maybe the cartridge you need to go with your 470AR.

Like the 470AR, all the work is done on the .411Hawk and proven in testing and in the field. Cases are easy to make and load data is on the z-hat.com site. Cartridge looks similar to the 470AR allowing an extra round in the gun.

i have a 30-06 and i think the 375 hawk would be the middleground of the two. the 411 is neet but kinda overlap with the 470 a.r. the new kimber rifles get FIVE down with an 06 and four down with magnum cases but i am thinking of a blr for the 375 for the lever action so my choices are the 375 taylor, 375 hawk, or ?

To the original post, most folks that push .375" have found Holland and Holland got it right 94 years ago.

two words

376 steyr

jeffe

Better question,

If Winchester had come up with the .380 Howell in 1952, were would the .375 H&H be today?

The fascination about the .376 Steyr is NOT shared with me. It is to long for a short action, and to short for a long, and its dia. steels mag.cap.
My respect to you, jeffe, so what have I missed?

I think the Howell case looks great. Along with the 9.3x66. However unless you have a 3.6" mag or longer you leave much of their potential on the loading bench. The bullet takes up a lot of powder space.

Years ago I played with my own case as shown above using pressue equipment. I loaded to 63,000 with OALs of 3.35 and 3.6. Loaded to the same pressure the 3.6 gave me 150+ fps gain over the normal 06 length case. There is a huge net powder capacity gain by moving the bullet forward.

Bent,
the 376 is shorter than ANY 3006 based 375...

and loads to the same length as the mauser spec on a 7x57 and 8x57, (3.065) ... and a 30-06 fits into those actions with zero problem...

and it's shorter than the 10.75x68, which fits perfectly into 98s..

the 376 steyr, 708, and 458 lott are easily the best factory rounds in the last 2 decades, IMNSHO

throw in the 416 rem, and you have all the "good" rounds put out

jeffe

Thanks jeffe,

But I still don't get it. The capasity over the .375 Hawk can not be more than minimal, wich in reality means nothing. The Hawk will give you one more in the magazine, and that counts for me. If the Steyr is supposed to fit in M98's and simmilar length actions, why did they not just neck up the 9,3x64? It is so close in diementions that it can be made from 9,3x64 brass. And don't tell me about the prices on '64 brass, the Steyr is made from scratch.

.375 Hawk


.376 Steyr


.9,3x64 Brenneke


So with the same capasity as the Hawk, it looses one in the mag. Does not sound very fantastic to me, sorry?
A .375x64, now that would make sence!!

i think you lose one in the mag with the 64 better make it on the new kimber to get four down or 5 down on a 06 casehead

ive been thinking about the 350 gr woodleighs and how well they would do in these cases and to make them shine case capacity is king...i have heard it said the 350 gr 375 bullets are as effective as the 416s on game. the 375 dakota might be the best way to do those at the sacrafice of one round. i think the extra cost of getting a smith to get another round down would be worth it but i like the idea of the 06 case and ease of conversion. if you use 250 ish grain bullets on down the 06 versions and steyer are great.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Better question,

If Winchester had come up with the .380 Howell in 1952, were would the .375 H&H be today?

The fascination about the .376 Steyr is NOT shared with me. It is to long for a short action, and to short for a long, and its dia. steels mag.cap.
My respect to you, jeffe, so what have I missed?

The 375 H&H would still be on top, because the -06 case is too small to drive 375 bullets to the velocities hunters want. The 35 whelen has never really caught on, despite producing reasonable velocities with the available bullets.

At least in the American market, the majority of gun buying hunters go after whitetail deer, and the majority of guns they use are 30 caliber and under. The next step up is your elk, moose and bear rifle, and there aren't that many folks that persue those animals. Those that do and use something bigger than a 30 caliber mostly use a 338 win mag or a 375 H&H.

Then there are the international hunters. 375 H&H is minimum for the big stuff, and has an incredible history.

Gotta go with Paul.

I played with my case in a 375. My case equaled the Howell in gross volume and excided it net by several grains. In a 24" barrel and 3.35" OAL I found that if I pushed it to 63-65,000 I could get a 260gr part just over 2600FPS the 300grs dropped to below 2500. Those velocities are mild starting loads in a 375H&H. Also due to the shape of my case and the location of the shoulder in the Howell in most M98 action you were limited to 4 down without working on the mag box.

After burning a lot of powder and time the barrel go pulled and when I want a 375 I grab my 375H&H.

If you really want cases down buy a CZ550 then cut a lot of the wood off that huge stock. You end up with a lighter rifle with 5 down. For not that much more than a custom barrel, installation and high $ dies & brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:

The 375 H&H would still be on top, because the -06 case is too small to drive 375 bullets to the velocities hunters want. The 35 whelen has never really caught on, despite producing reasonable velocities with the available bullets.

At least in the American market, the majority of gun buying hunters go after whitetail deer, and the majority of guns they use are 30 caliber and under. The next step up is your elk, moose and bear rifle, and there aren't that many folks that persue those animals. Those that do and use something bigger than a 30 caliber mostly use a 338 win mag or a 375 H&H.

Then there are the international hunters. 375 H&H is minimum for the big stuff, and has an incredible history.

I think you are mixing apples and oranges here, Paul! I am not badmouthing the .375H&H, absolutely not, but think about it, if Winchester brought out the .380 Howell in 1952, factory chambered, loaded ammo and all, and made it fit perfectly in their mod70, coal 3,5", to be played around with by Elmer Keith and his compadres.

One of the reasons all the belted cartridges popped up, was the lack of almost everything after the war. The belted H&H was there, so it was used.

The .35 Whelen did not become a factory loading until 1987, and can therefore not be compared as to popularity.

Look how fast the .300 H&H disappered when the .300 Win came out. The .375H&H really never had any competition from an american made cartridge.
Today, yes, but not in the days of old when history was made.

Ramrod:

The CZ is the way to go with the H&H, for sure.
Or another rifle with a simmilar magazine.

I solved the problem with my own cartridges, the .300, .338, and .375 FGC (Fossdal Gunsmithing Cartridge)
They are made with '06 diameter, but at a full 2.850" length, made from 9,3x74R brass. I use .30-06, 338-06 and .375Whelen dies, and a custom die to size the lowest part of the case. The .300 has a case capasity of 82 grs water. Could have made them more improoved, but I wanted smooth feeding and am happy with the result.
The two biggest are still in testing-modus, but the .300FGC I have hunted with for 5 years. It is married to a Rem 700, and they are very happy with their 5+1 relationship!