Not that i have any interest in them, but as all new cases are necked up and down to any size imaginable, the .416, 423 and the .458 RUM has not gained followers at all.
I know Zeglin has played around, but there is no information on his web-site.
We all know how success-ful Jeffe's AccRel's have become, so we know it works, that the small rebate does not matter and all that.

But cats on the full-length case are rare.

How come?

I think part of it has to do with the availability of donor rifles. If I buy a new Remington Ultramag, I'm probably already getting the performance I want and have access to factory ammunition. Would a wildcat add enough to justify the expense and extra hassle of case forming? These issues seem to keep the number of wildcats limited to a very small number of people who want that last little bit of performance.

For general consumers, the "cartridge of the week" confuses most people.

The AR cartridges are successful because it is an easy conversion from a common rifle action that makes a lot of sense when the original barrel is shot out or you have a real need for the extra performance a true wildcat offers.

Bent
I think Sid is on the right track with donor rifles as part of the issue. I can't say for sure, as I am a die hard Winchester M70 fan. If it does not say Winchester on it then I have no interest in it at all. Remington and I have some issues. I like the Rugers, love #1s and Winchester and Marlin lever guns. But when it gets very serious for me it's a Winchester M70.

Winchester made some 300 Ultras on the classic action some years ago. I have had SSk do a few guns for me on the Winchesters Ultra action, a full length .500 Ultra (Favorite), a 358 Ultra, and as you know from the 9.3 thread, a 9.3 Ultra. We have been looking at taking a action chambered in 338 WM or 300 WM to put the Ultra based cartridges on, however there seems to be some differences in the actions that make it more trouble than it is worth to do. Winchester had to make some changes in the rails, and other areas that I can't explain proper, to get the Ultra cartridges to work proper. I had a SS M70 in 300 WM at SSK I wanted a 500 Ultra on, but just last week we discussed these extra issues and decided to drop that, and I have 2-3 extra M70s in 300 Ultra to do the project. I have already one super grade in 500 Ultra, wanted a stainless version. So from the Win side of things it really needs to be the Ultra action.

From my point of view the big full length Ultra cases need to have 24 inches of barrel to burn that powder, while they are great cartridges, in some cases that is just too big for me, I am going in the other direction with my B&M series rifles, shorter, smaller, lighter, yet still more than enough to do the job. You mention Jeffes AR, they are great with the case at 2.55 inches, I think Jeffe can do with a little less barrel on those rifles, but if I were going to build one of these it would be Jeffes versions. My B&M cartridges are shorter, 2.25 inches, in .500--458--416. Housed in small WSM actions, 18 inch barrels, weight 6.5-8 lbs depending on stock, wood or otherwise. The full length Ultras need much more barrel to burn efficiently in my opinion. Jeffes AR's and my B&M's can get the job done on a smaller, more available platform.

Of course both our cartridges require some work to get to them, cutting and forming. Some handloaders are a little lazy!

Michael

Bent,
here's what info I could find on Fred's ultracats. http://www.z-hat.com/Ultracat.htm
I was lucky enough to get to spend time with him at a Dallas Safari Club show, and has my 470 AR case with me... and had the 550 express, as well.

The full length rum cases are a PITA to get to feed in a non-rum'mie action, and it requires a really long setup and/or action. That's why I did them as shortened rums... to fit in the standard platform.

Michael,- quick note, and THANK YOU for the praise... the 500 AR is off a rigby case, and is 2.65, the "40s" are the 2.55 rum cases...

At 2.55, i have no trouble meeting or beating the full length versions of the 416, 458, and 470, due to the case geometery... its just a little fatter...

Several years ago, I spent some time talking with Danny Pederson, cutrifles, about the 510 wells. As he has made more 510 wells than ANYONE, and perhaps EVERYONE summed, I took what he said as gospil.

he said that the round was done at 23" and could be nearly at full power in a 19" barrel

I asked him what he meant, and he said that from 18 to 19 inches, you got a gain of alot, form 19-20, not nearly as much, from 20-21, less, and so on..

Jeffe

More than welcome for the praise, however it is well deserved, I did not mean to mention the 500 AR as I know it is off the Rigby and .510 caliber. I was making mention of my 500 MDM Ultra--off the Ultra case and .500 caliber. Not sure if there was confusion there????? I know the 458 and 416 are the Ultras at 2.55.

As Jeffes cartridges on the Ultra equal the 2.85 versions of former 416-458 and 470 off the at 2.55 inches, the B&M's equal all the same cartridges in their 2.5 inch versions at the B&Ms length of 2.25 inches.

Barrel length, well you know me, short and fat! In the 50 B&M 2.25 inch case all rifles but one are 18 inches, I had one built with a 20 inch barrel and gained about 15, maybe 20 fps for the extra 2 inches, depending on load. Most of the 458 B&Ms have been 20 inch guns-the first 18 inch gun I lost on average about 30 fps with the 2 inches. I am having a 416 B&M built now with 18 inch barrel to test, all of those have been 20 inches. I think you would be great with one of the 458 AR or 416 AR with 20 inch barrels.
Not so sure about the 500 AR, I will leave that one alone.

The barrel length issue cannot be applied to the H&H based cases, you start losing a lot when you start chopping them down. Several of my 458 Lotts I have chopped off to 22 inches, one at 21 inches, there is far more difference in these than in the RUM based cases.

I received my 500 MDM Ultra back this week, broken stock repaired and strengthened, We Think? 2.8 inch Ultra case-Win M70 Ultra Action-21 inch barrel, .500 caliber. Got another one in the works stainless with a accurate innovations stock. Will start 2cd gen loads next week.

Sorry Jeffe if there was confusion or not??

Go ahead and cut one of those barrels to 20 inches with the 458 AR and see what we get???? I bet not much difference, and not enough to worry over anyway with your cartridge.

Michael

Merry Christmas, Buddy!

The verfy first 458 ar was on a 20" barreled parts gun... and lots of load dev was done on it.. I got like 50 fps for a 3" longer barrel, in the ones I built for Neal and I.. and they are a ball!!!

my first 500 AR was 25", and the next 2 were 23" .. i don't have a CLUE as to what the chrono diff is, as i haven't bothered since building the new one on a ruger

No confussion... just that the was a rum thread, i You did the .500 rum, and I did the .510 rigby ....

wicked little mean rounds that they both are
jeffe

Bent,
Action size issues here. To get a full-length RUM wildcat requires either a RUM donor (only Rem700's are readily available in Oz) or modification of a big Brno. The shortened RUM wildcats in the AR line are a blessing in reducing gunsmithing costs. There's atleast one 35/338RUM's over here, the shorter case was selected as the full-length case gave COL issues in the Rem700 magazine box.
Cheers...
Con

The Belted Rum to .500" "500 KILL ALL" hopefuly will go bang this year...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The Belted Rum to .500" "500 KILL ALL" hopefuly will go bang this year...

How did the 470 AR do for ya 2 weeks ago, boomie?

The RUM's have same case length and head-size as the .375 H&H, .458Lott and the same length and body thickness as the .404 Jeffery and .416 Dakota, so whatever can house any of theese can house a RumCat - winchesters included, even if there are issues. I

That cats are not for everyone is a fact, but it has not stopped the making of many fine cartridges.

Con, how can an action made for .338 and .375 RUM be to short for .358 RUM?

quote:

Con, how can an action made for .338 and .375 RUM be to short for .358 RUM?

It isn't.

The 358 RUM is available from Robert Tobler here in Oz. He makes 1:12, 1:14 and 1:16 twists.

Reamer is a JGS........I have not tried one; but the 358 STA I had off him 15 years ago shot sub moa with ANYTHING you fed it.

He is also bringing in a 9.3/300RUM reamer, so you can use the Lapua Naturalis projectiles in 9.3

He has 257RUM, 6.5 RUM, 7mmRUM, 300RUM, 338 RUM, 358RUM, 9.3/300RUM and 375 RUM reamers all by JGS in his shop.........

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The Belted Rum to .500" "500 KILL ALL" hopefuly will go bang this year...

How did the 470 AR do for ya 2 weeks ago, boomie?

Kicked pig ass is what it did!!!!!

anyone done a .395 on the RUM case?

Jeffe---I knew 20 inches would be good for the458 AR--you have been teasing me by not releasing that information! I guess now we look forward to the new year.

Boom Stick

It appears that you and I are moving in close circles? As I understand your 500 Kill All is actual .500 diameter, not 510? Will be close I think to my 500 MDM Ultra--no belt, very slight shoulder on mine, .500 diameter. Tell me more please. I just got my rifle back last week from stock repairs, getting ready to shoot again next week.

Bent

Head size is not the issue at all with the Winchesters, you are correct, length is not an issue either. The RUM case is just big enough in diameter to cause some retention issues in the magazine as for holding the fat case down. I think this goes double for magazines/action designed for the H&H based cartridges. I am sure with enough work that can be done however. Winchester did a lot of changes as I understand to the few Ultra rifles they did build. All my Winchesters that I have built RUM 358-9.3-500 MDM full length have been Win M70s in 300 Ultra. All my B&M Series rifles 50-458-416 have been Win M70s WSM actions. My 50 Super Shorts have been WSSM actions.

I can't speak for anything else but the Winchesters. And I am not the authority there,just repeating what I am told.

Michael

Boom Stick

Got it, I see it is .510. Sorry should have paid more attention! Went to your posts and threads on the subject with complete description thereof!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Con, how can an action made for .338 and .375 RUM be to short for .358 RUM?

Bent,
I suppose it's a matter of opinion. The user was shooting the old Nosler 225gr BT which was a long projectile for its weight. It required the base of the projectile to be seated below the neck to work through the magazine box. Using the full length 300RUM case would have aggrevated the issue. Same reason Remington shortened the 338RUM case to accomodate 250gr spitzers.
Cheers...
Con

Michael,
Boomie's round is a .500, for SW .500 bullets, same as yours.

I just couldn't find the headspace for a .510, so .... the rigby case...

and, qualcart is SUPPOSED to have pricing and brass avaialble for all 4 AR rounds

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
... and, qualcart is SUPPOSED to have pricing and brass avaialble for all 4 AR rounds

Jeffe,
I enquired about a week ago and am waiting on an email back. Hopefully we can get some headstamped 458AccRel brass here!
Cheers...
Con

Jeffe

Well it seems I am a bit confused concerning Boomie, I thought it was .500, then read the post on the link he has to it and it says .510??

The 500 MDM has just the slightest tiny shoulder, but you know I use the classic Winchesters, so the big claw does most the headspace on all my 50s. (Probably starting something?)

I already have the brass from Pete for the 50 B&M--416 B&M and 458 B&M--still a week or so out on the 500 MDM. Like I said it is fine brass! Again thanks for the tip!

Con
I am sure you know Pete at Quality, no need to get worried he takes a bit to get back to you!

Michael

As I've said before Michael, I'm damn impressed with the results of your shorty B&M's!

MileHigh

Thanks a bunch! They impressed me too, as I had not planned on the performance they churn out! Since everyone understands 458 caliber, the 458 B&M is a 2.25 inch case housed in a Win M70 WSM action with 18 inch barrel and can still SAFELY at 60000 PSI shoot 500 gr bullets at 2130-2150 fps--In an 18 inch barrel, rifle weighing from 6.5-8 lbs depending on stock! I was impressed myself-my goals were somewhere in between 45/70 and 458 Win. Also my goals were for thin skinned game originally for both the 458 and 416. The 458 can shoot 450 Barnes solids at 2230 + fps in that same 18 inch barrel! Right along with a 450 Swift, that puts the little gun well within range of buffalo ,hippo and elephant. If you get a chance check out the October issue of Shooting Illustrated, This is the latest NRA publication, Aaron Carter did a short article on the 458 B&M.

Thanks again

Michael

I'd still like to try something similar, but maybe a bit shorter with .475 bullets. Dual purpose, you could use 475 Linebaugh/480 Ruger bullets or go for gusto with the 500gr NE bullets.

Michael,
I caught that short article and was impressed. I know the guy that did the 458Alpine in Australia and his velocities where also very surprising from the little WSM case.

With your B&Ms, do you need to ream necks or anything? I assume your cutting down RUM brass, so the neck is being created effectively from the case wall? Damn I wish the Aussie dollar hadn't crashed ... would have loved to try the short 45cal using a Ruger 350RemMag action!
Cheers...
Con

Con -

I believe you're correct, Michael is cutting down RUM brass for his cases. They're a bit longer then WSM cases. He also uses Winchester M70 actions, which is probably a better idea then the Rugers. I was going to do a WSM wildcat on the Ruger, but found out the box is 2.9 vs the M70 3.1", that extra bit of length really can come into play with these lil bombers.

BTW way, this post got me to read that stuff you sent me a few months back for the 10th time lol thanks again for all those!

LOL had to add one more thing, about the "little wsm cases" they're not too entirely little! No matter what shape the case, 70gr is still 70gr if pressures are equal. I think thats what I love about the shorts, you get similar if not the same performance, but in a shorter action, and you get to make a lot of fuddy duddy traditionalists quite upset HA!

MHS,
The 458Alpine should now have a smaller and larger brother in a 9.3mm and 50cal. You know, a straight 458WSM might be a pleasant enough toy although I really liked the 'Australian Stalker 423WSM'. Might need to look into trading into a S/H M70 WSM action ... just in case!!
Cheers...
Con

Con -

I think QC has 458wsm brass listed on their webpage, along with 416 wsm. Not sure what their specs are, but likely they are just necked up with the same body lengths and shoulder angles. I think the M70 action is the way to go, even the push feds have long boxes, which I confirmed with my M70 Coyote 7wsm. I cant wait to get that rifle loaded up with some 180gr bergers, since i have the length for it! A 458 or the Stalkers would all be fun. I liked how the Stalkers even left some room on the table by stepping back on pressure to hot original numbers in the 416 and 423, I assume the 9.3 too. I still think the Alpine case would be great with a .411! But instead of going with the very blown out case and short necks with sharp shoulders, you could take Micjaels approach and use a slightly longer case to get that powder capacity without sacrificing feeding reliability.

Con

First thanks. I do not have to do any neck reaming at all. To get B&M brass-50-458-416, RUM brass is cut to 2.25 inches, trimmed. If it is 50 just size and load--458 and 416 just form, trim again, load. The 458 and 416 can be formed in the size die without issue.

I use the WSM case for the 50 Super Short.

I had some communications with Chris Boon a couple of years ago about the Alpine. Nice chap, and he sure is excited about his Alpine.

Michael

Michael,
Are you annealing or anything? I've been shortening 300RUM brass for my 458AccRel, then progressively opening to 45cal and fireforming. There's usually one anneal in there before fireforming. I'm having trouble with very thin necks that are cracking where the old shoulder/neck junction is. Might need to anneal after the trim and before starting to open them? Just wondering if there's any similar issues with your 458B&M? I just picked up another x200 300RUM cases ... never know what I might do with them!!
Cheers...
Con

Con

I am not annealing either. I have been amazed at the performance of the brass on all the B&Ms. Of course it is thicker at 2.25. On all the cartridges I am still using the original brass made from all the load data. This brass has been fired at least 10-15 times and in some cases more, all at the higher end of pressure and have yet to loose 1 piece of brass due to fatigue! Go figure????

I did have one issue with the first 416 B&M brass but that was because I had the size die set too far back when forming the brass. This caused the shoulder to sit too far back. Of course when it was fired it stretched to chamber dimensions, classic split brass in the middle after firing 3-4 times! Dumbass mistake on my part from the beginning, and never even noticed it until brass starting splitting in half! Then I paid attention!

Other than that still shooting the same brass with no sign of giving up!

Michael

Con,
I know the 375 rum is more money down under.. though i don't have any cases splitting there... after 8-12 unannealed firings, i DO get vertical neck cracking... but who know if that round was a 470 one day, a 458 the next, and back?

I am going to be ordering some hornady dies for the 40's ARs... those are supposed to be stocking items...

Jeffe/Con

Jeffe you may have an excellent point with using the 375 brass for your 40 ARs. Point in case, the 500 MDM. I have been struggling to form full length 500 brass from 300 RUM---can't do it at all, splits at the mouth every single time. Trying to take it up to 358, then to 40, then to 500 it splits. Take it up to 40 then try to blow it with corn meal, it splits. Can take the 375 Ultra straight to 500 either way mechanical or blowing it, works perfect!!!!!

Michael

jeffe,
Totally agree, I have x20 375RUMs here for opening up and will be buying another x50 soon-ish enough. The odd thing is, S&F and I did something to the first batch of 300RUM's that has kept them going and going and going. Maybe cutting them with a wheel got them hot enough to do a partial anneal? That brass is still going anyway!
My last lot of brass from 300RUM ended up so thin that I had a few split pulling projectiles!! Always at the same place ... where the old neck/shoulder juntion used to be. I dont think we've ever had a mouth split, although I've had mouths split when opening other brass up too fast ie in too big a first hit.
Paz ... owner of the third 458AccRel built has a contact on RUM cases (once fired) for 25c each ... too good to pass up!!
I think I've said it before, but I'll say it again, Jeffe you simply outdid yourself with the 416/458/470AR trio ... the 458AR is just a ripper of a cartridge!! The introduction of the 375/416Ruger proves you were on the right track with the standard length magnums ... the 45 is just so easy to load for its amazing!!
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Trying to take it up to 358, then to 40, then to 500 it splits. Take it up to 40 then try to blow it with corn meal, it splits. Can take the 375 Ultra straight to 500 either way mechanical or blowing it, works perfect!!!!!

Michael

Michael,
A really interesting observation! We took 300RUMs from 30 to 35 to 416 to 458, no splits until fired. Chris Boon was taking 300WSM up to 45cal in I think 8 individual steps (certainly quite a few) and his brass survived really well but the Norma brass is quite thick in the necks. Some mates and I just received our 358CRG reamer (35/300RCM) and the first thing that's obvious is that this new 300RCM brass is really thick in the necks!! I just have to drop a 40cal in it at some time to see what its like!!

It seems to me that the modern magnums (RUM/WSM/RCM) are all using very thick necks which is an advantage when your radically opening them up.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
I think I've said it before, but I'll say it again, Jeffe you simply outdid yourself with the 416/458/470AR trio ... the 458AR is just a ripper of a cartridge!! T

the 45 is just so easy to load for its amazing!!
Cheers...
Con

Thanks! i just love em, and i have been pleased and they have basically gone 150fps to 200 faster than my threshold for success..

I am glad you guys like em.. How about Paz? he good?