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It seems like there are a lot of new shorter cases that are being used for various .375s and .416s, but nobody seems to want to take on the .404 with the .423 bullet. You have the ruger case and the nosler case and the Winchester cases, and the ultra mag cases, who knows what other cases you have. Yet nobody seems to make a cartridge that will fit in a standard length action and shoot a .423 bullet. OUt of all of those cases that are available, which would be the best one to use for such a task. | ||
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425 Express 425 Fossdal 10.75x63 404 Dakota 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I think you're describing the 10.75x68. What force or guile could not subdue, Thro' many warlike ages, Is wrought now by a coward few, For hireling traitor's wages. | |||
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Time to make one then, Ruger 375 necked up to 404 would be a nice cartridge. Member NRA, NFA,CSSA,DSC,SCI,AFGA | |||
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Sounds like a good idea. However, I just bought a new Ruger 416 Alaskan (for $799!) and since I don't reload, wildcats are not as attractive to me as factory ammo. But I like the idea of any standard length 40 caliber in the Ruger case. The 404 Ruger sounds like a winner. Is it any easier to neck up a 416 Ruger to 404 vs. a 375 Ruger? I still love my 404 Jeffery, and now I have a standard length and a Jeffery length 40 caliber rifle. It's all good!  | |||
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or .416 ... DOH! 416 bullets are cheap compared to .423/424 AND more barrel choices -- this is the reason i didn't do a 404 accrel opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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http://www.municion.org/Dwm/Dwm515.htm 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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 Ruger already has a great 41 caliber rifle, they probably don't need a 41 1/2 caliber. Enjoy that 416 Ruger Alaskan. Great price, great rifle. Now you can let it taste some wild game. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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What force or guile could not subdue, Thro' many warlike ages, Is wrought now by a coward few, For hireling traitor's wages. | |||
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 I would go with the 10.75x68 if my mag length was restricted to 3.4" It is an odd duck but I like the way it Quacks and it fits the bill  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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will that go in a regular Mauser 98 action without too much difficulty? I suppose it will need new bottom metal and follower. | |||
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I would consult a good gunsmith. Weibe? https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101030678 Make it look like this one. It was designed by Mauser almost 100 years ago so I hope it fits. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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what is the performance of that as compared to the .404 | |||
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Both the 404 and 10.75x68 are somewhat strange animals and underloaded in standard factory offerings. The 10.75x68 is down around 2250fps with 400-grain and about 3900 ft#. (The 404 may get 2300fps in factory, but that is still underloaded and a disservice to the cartridge.) The factory 416Ruger and 416Rem have quite a bit more punch and about 150fps more velocity at 2400fps. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I built a 416 and two 404s on the ruger case some years ago for a Doctor in Twin Falls, Id. Ruger was considering the 404 at the time Im told. As I recall Dennis Olson had the reamer for both or the capability for both. That said, why would anyone want to give up the nostalgia of the 404 Jefferys, it has a lot to offer as it is.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Not an issue if you reload. What force or guile could not subdue, Thro' many warlike ages, Is wrought now by a coward few, For hireling traitor's wages. | |||
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I recall reading a summary of an endeavor involving the 404. It may have been on this site (or maybe not), but the fellow wanted a 404 bases cartridge that would function through a standard, unaltered action. All that he needed to do was trim an amount from the long neck of the 404 and seat the bullets correspondingly shorter. the body of the case was left as-is, so dies, equipment and ballistics remained the same. Problem solved. | |||
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I think I remember that thread. Can you post the link please? 3.53" is the COL of the 404 Jeffery Perhaps seat the bullet .13" deeper and leave the case alone while seating out nominal length or factory ammo for the one in the chamber.
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Given the number of 404 Jeffery rifles made on Mauser 98 standard length actions (I have one) and the fact that you are going to have to rebarrel or rebore anyway, why not just have the slight modification of the box dimensions (or buy specific bottom metal made for it) and bolt face done as well? The 404 Jeffery cartridge is shorter than the .375 H&H cartridge, if I remember correctly. A Winchester Model 70 action is already a magnum length action (I also have a 404J on a Model 70 action), so even less to do there. A low interest wildcat on a Ruger action, or a standard cartridge on a modified Mauser 98 or Winchester Model 70? Which would you want to spend money on? Also, if my memory is correct, almost all the original 404 Jeffery rifles were done on standard Mauser 98 actions. It didn't seem like a big deal to gunsmiths one hundred years ago, why should it be a big deal now? _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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The 404 has almost the case capacity of the 416 Rigby and the 416 WBY, all are about equal..All can be give 2600 FPS with ease and a 26 inch barrel with 95 grs. of IMR-4831, but still today so many doubting Thomas" quote the early 2100 FPS and others the 2300 FPS of the later British loads. Lot of claims by some that obviously have never reloaded for the calibers.. That said the best balanced load, and one that doesn't rock you molars, 90 grs. of same will give you near 2400 and 93 will get you some over that..and there is no better buffalo, lion or elephant gun than that IMO.. My first 404 Jefferys had a 27" barrel and it was a screamer, I loaded it DOWN as it was hard on bullets, and body..I later realized that anything past 2400 FPS with a 400 gr. bullets was spent somewhere in the space between the Selous and Dar es Salamm!! and my pet load was 92 grs, I moved to the middle and stuck with it most of the time. I never understood the wisdom of pushing a 400 gr. bullet at 2100 to 2200, other than not doing ones homework, or just plain paranoia at the loading bench. I also know a few yearly Safari hunters that shoot the 416 Rigby at near 2700 FPS with 400 gr. bullets, but the recoil voided me on loading.. The same can be said for the 416 Rem., 416 Rigby and 404 and 416 Ruger, and 416 WBY, and even the late and dead 416 or 404 Chatfield and others came close enough. BTW, there have been more 404 Jefferys built on std. 98 action than any other action. A few were made on the magnum Mausers of yesteryear, and they are rare today indeed..Ive owned a couple of FNs in 404 Jefferys from the factory btw..A few mod. 70 pre 64 customs, a few Whitworth customs and mod. 10s..Seen a lot of English rifles, the caliber has been around a long time..The one I liked best was the original with the 27 inch barrel Jefferys, a Hoffman on a std. action, I defy anyone to prove a difference on live game with any of the above calibers, if you do your full of prunes!  The best thing about the 404 is the nostalgia and long history of a great African cartridge..It goes with and is a part of Africa..The weirdest of all is why in the world no factory or interprise has not duplicated for a factory round is the .425 W.R.s Richards with perhaps a flush case rim.. The .425 WR has always been a favorite of mine and I, for one, love those ears that make it feed like poop thu a goose. Those ears even makd a standard case feed better..I converted one to a 458 and wow, it fed those big cases so well.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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After using and comparing my original 1907 vintage Jeffery 404 and a newer Ruger 416 I have learned that they are virtually identical in weight, balance, power and performance. So much so that I will probably put the Jeffery out to pasture as it deserves a break from the daily rough and tumble of Alaskan hunting. Rugers are rugged and expendable. I am even considering going the Ray Atkinson route and offering it, and over a case of original Kynoch ammo, up for adoption to help finance another African trip with my son and daughter. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Phil, sell it before you spray-paint it!!! :-) | |||
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Here's the link and it really does make a LOT of sense! http://forums.accuratereloadin...6521043/m/4641090722 Now, what if you didn't want to work your rails so much and have the ability to put four down in the mag without blowing out the sides or going deep with your mag and stocking? Would this work?  I was setting up to cut the belts off of some 458 Lott brass to make some 10.75X68 and thought necking for a .410 bullet would be pretty cool. Normally I neck down with a 404 die but then took that case and necked down again with a 450/400 2-3/8" die but of course you could stop at the 10.75 neck as well. Gives a lazy shoulder like many of the late 19th Century cases but I like it - sort of like a smaller version of the 404 (40cal. four shot rifle) thay if Winchester didn't have the 405 moniker nailed down could be a 405NE (40cal. five shot rifle) I guess its just a 400H&H without the belt. Has enough shoulder to obviate the belt anyway...
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Well Phils right, Id have a lot more guns if it were not for Africa, but one memory is worth any gun, and Id have done a lot more gun looking and less hunting were it not so..Id trade any gun for memory.. The only problem is my memory slips more on a daily bases, don't laugh everyone reading this post will have to deal with that sooner or later, and most sooner!!  but hey I can't even remember what guns I sold to go to the dark continent!!  One thing I will never forget is their is no replacement for the 404J, its perfection, and my heads made up on that issue.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The .423" bullet is why I have long maintained two things. First, the .404 is NOT the rimless counterpart to the .450/400 NE and second, the .400 H&H IS the rimless counterpart to the .450/400 NE. Of course each and every time I say that it raises a chorus of "Blasphemy!" To "take on the .404 with the .423 bullet" one would first need to decide there is sufficient justification for another cartridge midway between the 41s and 45s, especially one that is of .30-06 length. I'm not sure there is. But if I felt compelled to create such a cartridge I would probably just expand the neck of the .375 Ruger or .416 Ruger with no other changes. What's more, one could probably get a simple rebore and rechamber job to make one up on an existing Ruger rifle. That's a no-brainer. Surely, someone will surprise us someday with a .423 WSSM. . | |||
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well, you just admitted having bouts of forgetfulness. what you need is a new Ruger Hawkeye African, muzzle-break included, in 416 Ruger. When you start shooting it you will remember some of the good feelings from a decade ago and will forget about the 404's. If the muscles are stiff, try a 245grain GSC at 3000-3100fps. I think that an elk wouldn't know what hit it. Boom. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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The 404/375 Rugers I built were excellent cartridges, nothing about them was negative other than they were cold and had no history or nostalgia, for which I am guilty of all charges. I stillhave the dies for my 416/400 a 450-400 double rifle I built or help build necked to take a 416 bullet..Loved the caliber, it killed buffalo very well indeed, but so what,lots of available calibers did the same thing, so I sold it to a gent who didn't want the dies for some reason known only to him.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I once built a .416 Ruger on a Persian Mauser. I worked quite well but the recoil was a tad stiff. It would have been no trick at all to have necked up the .416 brass to .423 and stuffed it into a 7mm Rem mag action. Like most all wildcats, the end question is:....."What was gained"?....besides some exclusivity......and I suspect the next cape buffalo you shoot don't give a hoot about that. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Yes, at the .42" level, what is the difference between .416" and .423"? 0.007". The question becomes what bullets are available? Generally, the field produces more choices in .416". Why not a caliber in .413, .419, .426, or .432? -- Because most bullets are in .416". For example, Barnes offers three TSX and one TTSX in .416", but only one TSX in .423". +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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+2, and it is practically identical to the 416 Taylor when loaded to the same OAL and pressure. I think the 416 Taylor is most overlooked big bore/heavy medium of all time. I think it’s just too practical for rifle looneys. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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3.4" magazine? Get a 416 Ruger over the counter. Same length as the Taylor, and capacity as the Remington. Win Win. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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That is the practical, logical, and rational choice that should end this discussion entirely. However, some folks just have to be difficult. A friend and I went in together on a case of RWS 10.75x68 ammo a couple years ago, with plans to build a couple of rifles. We haven’t got around to it yet, but hope to do it sometime. I have a Mauser fetish, and the 10.75x68 was the largest round that Mauser developed, and the largest round that they housed in their standard length action. Swift Blackburn makes a bottom metal for the 9.3x64 Brenneke that I believe would be ideal for building a Mauser in 10.75x68. Yes, 423/424 bullets are less common and expensive, but that’s fine with me. I won’t be wiping out prairie dog towns with it anyway. If were to allow myself to go down the most rational route, I would have DPCD build me a 400 Whelen, and never look back. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Yes, seems like several guys have come to the most practical, rational path to getting a 40 caliber bullet, at around 2150 fps, with zero drama and using components that are readily available. Meaning, what Matt just said, the 400 Whelen; I now have 8 barrels lined up, all to be placed on Mausers. (Ok, one on a #1). Of course, some will still want a British or German cartridge, but there are costs to pay for that. | |||
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Hell was reading an article from one of the gun/nut authors 20 years ago, or when they first came out with the 450 Marlin. First thing he wanted done was to neck it down and rechamber the rifle to a 40. Guess it came out pretty good too. Me I like the 35's Phil | |||
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it was done .. basically a 405 american .. neat pocket cannon, but nah opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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LOts of folks reinventing the wheel, and without gain..I think Chatfield Taylor had the best idea, those were wonderfull rounds and with the 50 FPS loss of velocity in the 40 calibers, bullet performance shinned...I suppose the 375 Ruger put the taylors out of business because they got more velocity and that's the name of the game with todays shooters until they have been to Africa a number of times perhaps.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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dpcd, I hope there is one laying around there on a pre 64 action. | |||
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In addition to the aforementioned 10,75x68, I really like the .416 Ruger. Any standard length magnum boltface action can be easily converted.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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Yep .. i like the 416 ruger so much, it obviates my 416 Accrel, and i aint even mad opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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