I have been mulling this concept over a bit of a 2.25" version of the 458 win mag to get approx 80 grains or the same capacity as the 45-70 for low pressure loads or pumped up for mid range thumper. At 80 grains in a bolt action this would be capable of 300 grain bullets @ 2500 or 400 at 2150. Using a Winchester short action this could feed nominal 458 bullets or 458 Socom bullets or 45-70 bullets with 45-70 loads.
In Europe for all you M98 Mauser lovers you could call it the 11.63x57 What do you think? Yes you could load down a 458 Win Mag but was thinking of a short action light stalking rig with a short barrel similar to Michael458's 458 B&M but not as powerful or designed for DG and the use of 45-70 loads ect.

I don't think the short action issue is worth fooling with in a big bore, and actually feel that some of them don't cycle as well as standard length actions. I also don't know of any short action belted magnum actions. That means that feeding issues would also need to be addressed. Why not just a short barreled 458 loaded down? THe only difference is the short action, which may not be much of an advantage anyway. I shoot reduced 300 gr Hornady loads in my 458's all the time, and they work great.

quote:

I also don't know of any short action belted magnum actions.

Various 6.5 and 350 Remington Magnum models come immediately to mind.

I would think any 350 Rem Mag or WSM donor would feed ok. Save 3lbs over a 458 Win Mag gun. The 450 marlin is a worthy cart so this is just a bit more with cheap regular belted cases.

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
I don't think the short action issue is worth fooling with in a big bore, and actually feel that some of them don't cycle as well as standard length actions.

feeding issues would also need to be addressed. Why not just a short barreled 458 loaded down? THe only difference is the short action, which may not be much of an advantage anyway. I shoot reduced 300 gr Hornady loads in my 458's all the time, and they work great.

I agree enthusiastically. I pondered this a long time, and had a 450 Marlin built on a Ruger short action. Never could get it to feed right. Pulled the barrel, sold the short action, put the barel on a std long Ruger action, rechambered to 458WM. Excellent. The action required no modifications to feed perfectly. I use standard RCBS dies, and standard brass, but I have to watch the OAL length carefully to crimp right.

The difference in my chamber is that it has a 45-70 throat - short throat, and the barrel is 20" twist. It's handloads only. Shoots 300-405gr bullets into 1" groups easily. Load down, load hot.

I would recommend no other, except if a guy wanted to use the heavy bullets, he needs a normal throat, and twist rate.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I would think any 350 Rem Mag or WSM donor would feed ok. Save 3lbs over a 458 Win Mag gun.

Not true, friend. I made the same assumptions, and I was wrong too.

KB

Well I guess some feed work might be in order then. I was thinking the same throat as a Win Mag. I guess you could get away with a 458 win Mag reamer and shortened dies.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I would think any 350 Rem Mag or WSM donor would feed ok. Save 3lbs over a 458 Win Mag gun.

Not true, friend. I made the same assumptions, and I was wrong too.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I would think any 350 Rem Mag or WSM donor would feed ok. Save 3lbs over a 458 Win Mag gun.

Not true, friend. I made the same assumptions, and I was wrong too.

KB

Kabluewy:

Please elaborate on your experiece that you are refering to. I was under the impression that WSM actions fed the 350 Rem Mag and 450 Marlin quite well.

Ok. It's a blind assumption that ALL WSM actions will feed the 450 Marlin.

Most likely some actions will feed the 450 Marlin properly. You just have to try and see. I recommend that you get it to feed before barrel installation.

I bought a used Ruger 77 MKII stainless in 350 Rem Mag. The barrel had been butchered. I assumed that it would feed the 450 Marlin, so I didn't put much effort into checking it out. Instead, I had the barrel installed, then sent it to a gunsmith to make it feed, and do the stock. When I got it back, it would barely feed the first one down, as I remember, and the next one would sometimes pop out of the feed rails, and it wouldn't feed the flat nose bullets. It was a mess. I was so dissappointed that I didn't even shoot it. Instead, I put the thing in my barrel vice, pulled the barrel, and sold the stock and action on gunbroker.

I have read reports of success in getting it to feed, but can't confirm that with my own experience. I've also read reports of the 45-70 feeding properly in that Mauser action designed for the rimmed 8mm cartridge - I forget the name. Anyway, I have never been able to confirm that either. Every stinking one of them that I've seen has fed poorly.

So, I held onto the barrel for a few years, and acquired a Ruger in 338WM, which was poor accuracy, as usual. I checked the action for feeding with a variety of dummy 458 rounds, with a variety of bullets that I wanted to use, and it fed slick with them all.

So, I sent the action and the 450 Marlin barrel to a gunsmith for installation as a 458WM, on the std Ruger MKII receiver. We discussed it a time or two, and I told him what I wanted, and he agreed that it wasn't a bum idea. Simply stated, for many years I wanted something to duplicate the ballistics of the 45-70 in a slick feeding bolt action. I did not want a standard 458WM, with the 14" twist and long throat. Also, I wanted to use standard brass, and standard dies.

The barrel is a #5, as I recall, 20" long, and has a 20" twist rate. It has a short throat, almost exactly like that in a standard 45-70 chamber. It will not even allow the bolt to close on 458 factory loads, just like I planned it - for safety reasons. The barrel is boldly marked "Short Throat".

The result is better than I expected. It shoots 45-70 type bullets very well. It's just like you may imagine a 45-90. It can be loaded to 2450fps with a 350gr Barnes TSX, and 2300 fps with a 400gr Swift, or down to subsonic loads with the Rem or Speer FN 405 or 400 gr bullets. SR 4759 works great for reduced loads - 1100fps to about 1600 fps, 405gr bullets, 1" groups. The seating is to the crimp groove, for all bullets tried. It's close, so I have to watch the OAL of the brass, and I have to crimp. The ogive of most bullets is very close to the lands, so I have no room to spare with case length. I have to maintain the cases to book trim length, and no longer, which is exactly what I wanted.

Anyway, back to feeding. The shorter, blunt cartridge is the 450Marlin is tricker to feed than one might suspect. A push feed would probably work well, and the so-called controlled round push feed. The angle of entry is too sharp for the Ruger, and it binds too easily. Just adding a little length to the cartridge, as with the 458, is just enough to get it out of a bind.

I can't emphasize enough how sweet it is to take a factory action, with no modifications at all, and have it feed as slick as this Ruger action does. Funny thing is that I have another Ruger 77 MKII, in 300 WM, and it isn't as slick feeding for the 458WM. It feeds 300WM and 338WM, and such, very well, but will jam a little with the 458. It could be corrected, but it's very reassuring when an action feeds right off.

I've got one CZ 550 medium action that was a 7 mag, and it feeds the 458 super slick too.

Finally, I don't consider the 458 brass a disadvantage or too big in comparison to the shorter 450 Marlin case. The 458 downloads very well, and the longer case feeds better. What's not to like? Also, one very nice feature of the capacity of the 458 brass (think 45-70 now) is that if a guy wants a thumper load, and you will sooner or later, it's easy.

Say a guy wants to mess with a 400gr Swift load, for moose or bear. The powders that may be good choices could include RL 7, H4895 (or IMR), H4198 (or IMR), H322, AA2230, etc. What I found out was that I can put the exact amount of powder in the case where the bullet seats firm on top of the powder, slightly compressed, and crimped firmly in the crimp groove. With the powders mentioned, and tested so far, the loads are not max per book, although the 4198 may be right up there. The velocity is plenty, and so is the kick. But what happens is that the bullet won't push back into the case from recoil, because the powder charge prevents it. The recoil is enough to defeat the crimp, even a heavy crimp with a lee factory crimp die, if the powder isn't slightly compressed. I have som more testing to do on that, but that was my observation on at lest two powders tested with thumping loads. With milder loads, it becomes less important, and the crimp is enough to hold the bullet, and prevent it from setting back in the case. It works out nice.

Although I have some 400gr Swifts on the shelf, the thumper load that I favor so far is the 350gr TSX. This is the advantage of the 458WM, in this class of load, over the 45-70. It would have to be used in a single shot, for one thing, due to the pointy end. No problem in the 458. The 350 gr TSX can be pushed to over 2400 fps according to the book loads, although I haven't cronographed such loads yet. The 300 gr TTSX can be pushed even faster. These are not plesant loads in this light rifle, so I'm working up to them. I think they will be useful out to as much as 200 yds, maybe more, and be about perfect for moose and black bear. My buddy Gumboot says the 350gr TSX will shoot through a brown bear at most any angle. I may have the chance to test that in Spring. Some fellow Alaskans have a hunt planned, and asked if I had a proper rifle for one of them to use. I haven't made up my mind about that yet. It depends on whether I get to go along, and whether the friend can actually shoot such loads, and take care of my rifle. Probably not, but we'll see. I may just go as backup, on that hunt, but I have a spring black bear hunt in the works of my own.

It doesn't look like much. I started with the Hogue stock, and have liked it so much that I haven't bothered to change it. The Hogue takes a lot of recoil out of it. The first scope, a Leupold 1x4 shotgun scope, busted inside after about 20 shots. Leupold fixed it. So, I sent the rifle off for the NECG sights. I have the matching receiver sight - which works like a ghost ring. The scope shown is a Leupold 30mm 2x7 German #4, which is great, but the standard one inch 2x7 shotgun scope should work just as well, IMO. For the heavy loads, the scope may come off and the receiver sight goes on. Hopefully this scope holds up better than the last one. I've been told that Leupold may offer a straight full size 3 power scope soon. If so, that could be the perfect scope for this rifle.

The rifle is off right now to be dark Gray T coated. The sights and bolt will be Black T, for contrast.









KB

the 458 american .. 2" case, was the result of such thinking. 2.85 is the length of the "short" action .. a 308 ... 3.115 is an intermediate .. mexican mauser .. which i just load 458 winmag to 3.1 or so on .. rem 405s on the first grove works fine, too

Well in a true short action the .45" tip to canalure bullets would work or longer in the Winchester, M98 or MRC short action.

Boomie, my first try was 450 Marlin in a Model 70 WSM action. The rounds stacked well and would feed well into the chamber from the magazine if cycled slowly. However if you cleared the spent round quickly the new round would pop loose from the mag and the rear of the case was then partly out of the ejection port. I did not want to modify the magazine so I rechambered to 458 WSM and no more problems. I too have studied the 2.25" verson because of the length of the WSM box will allow it but I am still unsure what will need to be done to the box to hold the rounds in place properly. I believe the problem is the belted case is smaller in diameter than the Wsm just enough to cause the problem. I have 458x2" on Model 700 short action and it feeds and cycles fine slow or fast altough the ejection is not as positive as the Winchester. Add .25" and things change real fast. I like the 458x2" over the 450 Marlin for several reasons. First, the reamer specs (PTG) on the 458x2" are less generous than the Marlin creating a better chamber fit and the throat and leade angle are more to my liking. second is the brass availability. I"m using Federal 7 Rem Mag brass as it is a little thinner so I do not have to inside neck ream allowing me a "tight neck" fit for my loaded rounds. I use 450 Marlin dies to reload with. Very accurate. Going to make some dummy rounds in 2.25" and see how the cycle, will report back. RandyB.

Cool!
Post pics of the dummies and in the magazine please.

quote:

Originally posted by RandyB:
I have 458x2" on Model 700 short action and it feeds and cycles fine slow or fast altough the ejection is not as positive as the Winchester.

I like the 458x2" over the 450 Marlin for several reasons. First, the reamer specs (PTG) on the 458x2" are less generous than the Marlin creating a better chamber fit and the throat and leade angle are more to my liking. second is the brass availability. I"m using Federal 7 Rem Mag brass as it is a little thinner so I do not have to inside neck ream allowing me a "tight neck" fit for my loaded rounds. I use 450 Marlin dies to reload with. Very accurate. RandyB.

Thanks for the report on the WSM action, which confirms my suspicions about feeding.

Also thanks for the report about the 458x2" in a push feed action. That also confirms something I haven't tried, but from experience with the 450 in the Ruger, I figured the push feed would be good.

Question: is your Rem 700 short action from something initially chambered in WSM or SAUM, or the 6.5 or 350 mag?

I often thought about a 458x2". A 2.25" case would be interesting too. The idea is to take a push feed action, and make the barrel really short - like maybe 16" to 18". That could be an interesting carry gun.

KB

The 80 grain capacity goal is partly due to an efficient cart that could have an 18" barrel and use most of the powder. 400 @ 2150 would be a fun 6lb. Pop gun that carries well.

boomie,

When you say 80 grs, are you talking about powder or water?

Also, I'm wondering about how you determine that a 2" or 2.25" case is more "efficient" than the 2.5" case? I could speculate about that, but really I don't know how to objectively quantify the term "efficient" in comparing the case lengths. I could presume this and that, but that would be an educated guess. How do you do it?

Also, 400gr bullets at 2150fps, out of a 6 lb gun - hummm. I would be ok with it, but I would also want it to fit well, so it's on my shoulder properly when fired.

I've been thinking of adding a little weight up front on mine, for balance. In my case, that's easily done, by just switching to a Hogue with the full aluminum bed block, and that stock is stiffer too. I worry about the recoil damaging the stock that's on it now, but so far there are no signs of damage.

KB

Efficient in terms of large bore burning almost all the powder in an 18" barrel and getting some good power with 400 grain bullets and under 400 grain. Was thinking 80 grains water case capacity.

That's scientific, eh !!

Basically, the same powders best for the std 458WM case will be relevant with the shorter cases too, with the 400gr and lighter bullets used in either.

I don't think the 1/4" or 1/2" of case is going to have much effect on the burn of the powder in a given barrel length. It would be difficult to determine any differenct in the "burning almost all the powder", in either case.

As I said, SR 4759 is on the faster end of the burning rates, and I got good results with it. But, in order to get to 2150 fps I'm quite sure another powder will have to be used. RL7 is relatively fast, and 4198, and others. H4895 allows up to 60% reduction from max loads. I'm not too sure about the ball powders. I would have to think three times before trying reduced loads with them.

The way I test burn efficiency is to take a variety of loads, with the different powders, and go out the road at night. Put on my ear protection and blast away, watching the muzzel blast fire ball. I judge the most efficient that has the least flame. I don't know if that's scientific, but it's the best I can do. I follow up with a cronograph, at the range, and look for consistency in velocity, and also confirm accuracy. If it all jives, then it's efficient in my book. So far, I have enjoyed messing with H4895 best. That's because it fills the case best, and it's not the hottest load. Plus I can reduce the charge without worry, and get down to 1800fps easily for fun loads. 4198 or RL7 or AA 2230 seems to be better if I want near full power loads. Frankly, I don't care if H4895 is the most efficient, in terms of burn. I do care that it produces low pressure loads, and consistant velocity, and accuracy. I like forgiving and flexable powders, and if efficient, all the better.

Really, I don't think the case length will have any effect on efficiency, especially when one looks at the full scope of the meaning of the word. After all, one could consider the 458WM case "efficient" in comparison to the 458 Lott.

Efficiency to me has a broader meaning, and not only includes the burn rates, and burn percentage, but includes things like feeding, and the effort needed and expense to get a gunsmith to make it feed. It includes the cost of custom reamers and dies, and the effort to make special cases, neck ream, etc, compared to just using off-the-shelf brass and dies, and not having to buy a reamer - chamber or throat. Efficiency also includes the availability of good actions. There are plenty that work well with the 458WM. There's resale value to consider as well.

It's a package deal. Considering the cartridge alone is where many wildcatters get into a mess.

An extra 1/2" of action length is practically nothing, in terms of efficiency.

Also, it's well known and accepted, and I have confirmed it myself, that the 458WM lends itself very well to reduced loads, a broad range of bullet weights, and velocities, and frankly it produces all the thump and recoil that I can use or stand.

The 458WM case has all the "efficiency" potential that I can use. If I wanted a 458 with an 18" barrel, easy to carry, IMO the 458WM would be just as good, if not better, choice than the shorter cases.

In this conversation, I'm not talking about full power, heavy bullets, normally used in the 458WM. That's a different conversation.

KB

Boomie,
You got me thinking some more about this short action / efficiency thingy.

I remember seeing a video of a guy feeding the 458 Socom in a Savage short action. As I remember, it was a single stack DB magazine, and it was feeding very well.

IMO, that would be an interesting set-up. But it has to feed flawlessly to be OK with me.

I would like to read of other's experience on this set-up. If it could be done without too much dinking around by a gunsmith, I think it would be worthwhile.

Savage actions are readily available, and the brass is somewhat difficult to obtain, but available, as well as dies and reamer. IMO, the brass is too expensive to be tossed around by an AR anyway.

There is a good chance that a set-up using the 458 Socom brass in a Savage action could meet your criteria of efficient, and meet mine as well.

Let's talk about it. Perhaps the same could be said of the 450 Marlin / Savage. I suspect the 2.25" case would work too.

KB

Was thinking you could get away with shortened 458 Win Mag dies and chamber for the 458 win mag to avoid special reamers and dies. This could be done in a 458 win mag like shooting a 458 win mag in a 458 Lott chamber. You could load the short 45-70 bullets in a full length 458 Win Mag case or regular rifle bullets in the 2.25" case. The boon of 45-70 capacity and loads is great to use or use as a starter load. That 458 Win Mag with a short throat would work too I assume. The 2.25" case could be a great plinker for those who already have a 458 Win Mag and want something with less recoil or to use 45-70 loads. Taking a 458 Win Mag and exchanging the stock for a light synthetic and possibly shortening the barrel are options. There would be almost no additional cost if one already had a 458 Win Mag. Your 458 Win Mag could just gain more flexibility.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
That 458 Win Mag with a short throat would work too I assume.

Taking a 458 Win Mag and exchanging the stock for a light synthetic and possibly shortening the barrel are options.

Your 458 Win Mag could just gain more flexibility.

That's what I did.

Talking about efficiency - this is what I've been looking at next, and almost drooling.

http://www.capsandstems.com/458socom/458socom.htm

The subject of efficiency and performance were studied almost to death in the 60's and 70's by Hutton and Powley. There are a lot related issues, but it really just comes down to expansion ratio. For any given bore size, increasing case size with no change in barrel length raises velocity and lowers efficiency. Increasing barrel length with no change in case volume raises efficiency and raises velocity. These both assume that the same bullet and a max charge of the same powder are used. It's just like any other internal combustion engine, when you raise the compression ratio, all other things being equal, the efficiency goes up.

The big question is, outside of a hobby thing, why is it of any importance? The animal you shoot doesn't care how efficient the round is (he doesn't care if he is shot with a 338 Federal or a 338 WM). The only real upside I can see is that recoil is less for a given performance level. The actual savings in powder in the course of a year is usually so small as to be a non-issue.

Feeding and efficiency aside
What possible advantages are there?
A middle ground between the 450 Marlin and 458 Win Mag.
Use of cheap brass and bullets
Potential for handy light stalking gun.
Almost no additional hassle or cost for existing 458 Win Mag gun.
Use of 45-70 loads.

When deciding on the specs of my rifle, considerations were:
Feeding, function and efficiency - foremost
ballistically - middle ground between 450 Marlin and 458WM
Uses cheap bullets, brass and dies
Light and handy stalking rifle
no additional hassle or cost etc. compared to "normal" 458
Load to ballistic equivilent of 45-70 plus, 300gr - 405gr bullets only
Bear thumper - stopper, for hiking and camping, salmon stream fishing
Hunting rifle - moose, bear, hogs - 200 yd capable with right load
Adaptable for cast bullets
Easy subsonic loads, that still have thump.
Weather proof - stainless with Gray T
synthetic drop-in stock available tuff enuff for 458
salt water friendly
boat and 4-wheeler compatable
Easily detached scope and receiver ghost ring sights, switch is quick
low power scope, heavy retical for low light in dark timber and close work
high-viz fiber optic front sight for dark timber and close work

My rifle acomplishes the above very well for me.

I tried the 450 marlin in the rem 700 wsm and it did not work for me in my action. After much study I determined the 450 Marlin brass has a considerable bevel on the base. this was preventing the extractor from holding fully against the opposite force of the spring loaded ejector. initial extraction was good and as the bolt was pulled rear when the case would clear the barrel tenon the case would pop loose from the extractor leaving it laying there on top of fresh round. took same barrel to model 70 wsm action and solved that problem but now have fresh round pop out magazine during fast cycle. I believe this could be solved with some tweaking of the mag box. I need some help with with that problem. 458x2" in rem 700wsm action is working fine. i did polish the feed ramp and rails to smooth things up. However I wish I could make the Model 70 work as I favor that action. The 2.250" version will work with most light bullets in the M70 wsm mag box (3.050") as opposed to the M700 box @ 2.880". I don"t have a Savage wsm action to play with but it should be considered and would like some input on that. RandyB.

OK I"m laughing now at my own post. To those that don"t know me "After much study" means two beers. Remember, advise is worth what you pay for it. RandyB.

Kablewy,

I think you hit on the ideal gun and application for the 458 WinMag. Instead of trying to max it out for African hunting where we now have far superior Lott, load it down for fun and the full range of very practical N American hunting. Very easy and very logical.

Initially, the idea was to have a handy hiking rifle, something with thump to take along when fishing salmon streams. It had to be weather proof. Even stainless will rust and pit, which is partially why I'm having it dark gray teflon coated. Another reason is to remove the shine.

Anyway it's not made to be pretty, but primarily functional. For a long time, I had wanted to have the short throat done on a 458, to confirm my suspicions that it was appropriate for the type of bullets I wanted to use. I figured that if it was good enough for the much older 45-70, it was correct for the 458, since I wanted to use 45-70 type bullets, or at least bullets with a short ogive.

As it has turned out, the rifle is suitable for far more service than I initially figured. If a guy wants to play around with 45 cal bullets, the 458 is quite versitle, with handloads. About the only thing I can think of that it's not likely to do well is cowboy action shooting.

Also, if a guy just had to have a pretty one, that isn't likely to see the environmental onslaught rifles can take up here, then blue and walnut is fine. A few years ago, my first 458 was a Parker Hale Mauser, which I had the barrel shortened to 20", and better sights installed, and some stock work. It shot fine with handloads, and it shot the factory loads too. I remember the factory loads well, because that stock was a monte carlo style, and with factory loads, it literally felt like the recoil was enough to dislocate my shoulder. I used 400gr bear claw bullets loaded to about 2150 fps for my hunting load. I sold the rifle, and missed it ever since. Now I have its replacment, made to my specs.

Had my rem. 673 350 rem mag (that didn't feed) rebarreled to a .450 marlin and it feeds perfect. As soon as weather allows, I will start working up loads.

Trying to figure out the picture posting. anyway got one on big bore forum. Bear with me guys. One thing at a time. RandyB.

Does anyone have a 458 Win Mag rifle that they could try this out for fun?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Feeding and efficiency aside
What possible advantages are there?
A middle ground between the 450 Marlin and 458 Win Mag.
Use of cheap brass and bullets
Potential for handy light stalking gun.
Almost no additional hassle or cost for existing 458 Win Mag gun.
Use of 45-70 loads.

Boomy,
Exactly how far behind the 458WinMag is a 450Marlin in a bolt gun? To save on expensive brass ... hold a 450Marlin reamer back so that conventional H&H belt dimensions are being cut. You get to use cut H&H anything brass, use of the 450Marlin dies and potential to load to the 63k psi maximum as per most modern cartridges.
Cheers...
Con

The 450 Marlin, 2.100" has a case capacity of 77 gr H2O and the 458 WM, 2.50" - 94 gr H2O, 18%. Loaded to the same ~pressure and bullet weight you get ~2400fs in the 458WM and ~2200fs in the 450 M.

When I built my 458 AMerican on a SMLE 2A action I used a 458 WM reamer. I trim 458WM cases to whatever length the bullet of choice needs to crimp in the crimping groove and to fit the 3.07" mag length of the SMLE.

Some bullets require a 2.2" trim some can go to 2.35" depending on the brand, metal type and weight. I also load to <45KCUP for the receiver pressure specs...and AA2460 has proven to be the best powder for all bullet weights...I get more reloads per case and ~5% higher velocities than with AA2230 which proved to be the second best powder for "my" SMLE...and I tried most the powders in that burn rate range.

There are 450M and 458 American cartridges built on bolt actions out there. There are several very good reasons to choose one or the other and several very bad reasons. I see nothing wrong with picking either or, they both work very well, and in a bolt gun you DON'T have to settle for SAAMI COAL on the 450M so you can gain a little case capacity by seating out farther. Whatever argument you use for one can be turned around and used for the other for the most part...just pick one and do it.

As far as brass cost is concerned, from what I can see new brass cost about a buck apiece...of course you can find once fired belted mag cases much easier than 450 Marlin for sure.

Was thinking that just using a 458 reamer was best and trim to the right length. Was thinking in a stalking gun 45-70 capacity and loads is enough and 60k psi loads would be enough for up close with bears with nominal 458 rifle bullets 450 grains and under. Advantages are 45-70 loads and cheap brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Con:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Feeding and efficiency aside
What possible advantages are there?
A middle ground between the 450 Marlin and 458 Win Mag.
Use of cheap brass and bullets
Potential for handy light stalking gun.
Almost no additional hassle or cost for existing 458 Win Mag gun.
Use of 45-70 loads.

Boomy,
Exactly how far behind the 458WinMag is a 450Marlin in a bolt gun? To save on expensive brass ... hold a 450Marlin reamer back so that conventional H&H belt dimensions are being cut. You get to use cut H&H anything brass, use of the 450Marlin dies and potential to load to the 63k psi maximum as per most modern cartridges.
Cheers...
Con

Many ways to skin a cat... I like your Smle set up. The advantaged are subjective and not universal. The only fault with the 450 marlin is the brass.

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:
The 450 Marlin, 2.100" has a case capacity of 77 gr H2O and the 458 WM, 2.50" - 94 gr H2O, 18%. Loaded to the same ~pressure and bullet weight you get ~2400fs in the 458WM and ~2200fs in the 450 M.

When I built my 458 AMerican on a SMLE 2A action I used a 458 WM reamer. I trim 458WM cases to whatever length the bullet of choice needs to crimp in the crimping groove and to fit the 3.07" mag length of the SMLE.

Some bullets require a 2.2" trim some can go to 2.35" depending on the brand, metal type and weight. I also load to <45KCUP for the receiver pressure specs...and AA2460 has proven to be the best powder for all bullet weights...I get more reloads per case and ~5% higher velocities than with AA2230 which proved to be the second best powder for "my" SMLE...and I tried most the powders in that burn rate range.

There are 450M and 458 American cartridges built on bolt actions out there. There are several very good reasons to choose one or the other and several very bad reasons. I see nothing wrong with picking either or, they both work very well, and in a bolt gun you DON'T have to settle for SAAMI COAL on the 450M so you can gain a little case capacity by seating out farther. Whatever argument you use for one can be turned around and used for the other for the most part...just pick one and do it.

As far as brass cost is concerned, from what I can see new brass cost about a buck apiece...of course you can find once fired belted mag cases much easier than 450 Marlin for sure.

EVERYTHING about this game is subjective and not universal for the most part and EVERYONE forgets that when it comes to their favorite shooter.

We get brainlock, crosseyed, constipated and VERY protective all at the same time if someone schats on our colors or steps over the line...whatever that line is in our minds.

It's too bad because there is just so much good stuff out there to play with or contemplate building.

All the BS and posturing is just a waste of excellent mindpower with very little usable value.

After studying all the info about 45-70 conversions and the trouble with the large rim and getting magazines to work, I couldn't imagine WHY anyone would want to jump into that quagmire when using a belted mag or 450 M case makes things so much easier and gives you a 45 cal short "thumper" equal to or better than the 45-70 anyway...but that's all subjective too, isn't it.

I've often thought about doing a 45 cal belted or WSM something something swap barrel as a sibling to my Ruger 416 Taylor or maybe a 450 Rigby to go with my 510 Makatak or for one of my Savage LA's...something else always get in the way.

LUCK