I am working on some ideas for a .423 wildcat. I have heard rumors of North Fork starting back up. Anyone else heard anything? Their 380gr bullets would be just about perfect for my short cartridge idea, more powder space then the various 400's (especially Barnes) but higher SD then the 347 and 350's made by Woodleigh.

BTW I am thinking about necking down a 450 Marlin case with little/no taper and as sharp a shoulder as possible, to work out of a short action mauser with a short barrel. Short range heavy (north american) game timber rifle. Probably on a Ruger WSM action, with a Kimber style straight comb stock. Scout scope of course

Why not make a 423-376 Steyr improved? basicly a larger 416 Aagard
should have the same or better shoulder as the 10.75x68 but shorter.

PS why use Marlin brass?

Need shorter? go 404-284

I think 380's @ 2100 from a 423-284 would be cool.

LoL I was wondering if you were going to make an appearance in my thread, seeing as I read about the 240/423 about 5 minutes after I posted my idea.

Marlin brass is cheap and plentiful, and its a hair longer then 458x2" American, should give me a little extra brass for a good neck. Also its a .532 case head, vs the Steyrs odd case head (big fan of the 376 and the 416 though!)And the Marlin is belted, I'd just feel better about a belted case with such a small shoulder. I guess doing a 404/350 Rem Mag would give identical results, but using Marlin brass with the wider belt makes me different Isn't that kind of the point?

2100 would be awsome! 2200 would be better. I saw data for the 458x2 with a 400 at 2130 from a 20" tube....I know it might be a stretch but for some reason I'd really love an even 2200.

Also I chose .423 because .411 has been done (400 marlin) and I saw brief info on the 416, as well as the 416x2", just wanted to be a bit different

The marlin has a 532 rim and 511 casehead.
The ruger case is a 532 casehead and would be better than the belted and have a lot more headspace surface than a tiny belt although a tiny belt has worked fine for over 100 years. The 338 RCM is 2" the 300 RCM is 2.1" but I would form from 375 ruger cases. How bout a 404 WSM and call it a night?

Being you are working with a short action Mauser I was thinking you would be thinking a .470" boltface.

A 404 Steyr aka "Mini 10.75x68" would be neet.

Well I am hoping to find a Ruger WSM action, so that way it'll have the .532 bolt face on it, and not have to have any work done internally to hold/feed the larger cartridges. Also the reason I wanted the belted case, less headspace issues.

A 404wsm would be great, but thats too easy lol that things been stretched up and down more then Richard Simmons leotard (i know, that was in poor taste, I apologize for anyone who reads that and gets the image in their head HA!)

And after you mentioned it, I looked up the 10.75x68, I think thats just about where I'm trying to land!

Or check out the cartridge in ammoguide in my tagline, the .425 Fossdal on a lengthened .240 Wea'by, stamped cases soon to be had from Quality Cartriges.

quote:

Also I chose .423 because .411 has been done (400 marlin) and I saw brief info on the 416, as well as the 416x2", just wanted to be a bit different

Try a .429 Harvey Junior. 2" 458 case necked to 44 cal, lots of bullets available.

Great suggestions...but isnt the point of wildcatting to have something different, regardless of how small the difference may be?

I'm still playing around with the idea of maybe a .411 or some other 40-something caliber bullet as long as I can get well constructed bullets of a SD of .27 or higher. This is inteded as a large game hunting rifle (not DG mind you, close range large ungulates)

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
And after you mentioned it, I looked up the 10.75x68, I think thats just about where I'm trying to land!

I signed up on ammoguide so I could check out your round more. I like it! However, what I'm trying to do is kind of the same concept, but on a 308 length action. Think of it more like a 425 Express Short Action....actually 425 SAE sounds like a good name! Using the 450 Marlin brass makes it a 2-step forming...neck down, fireform, ready to go.

MHS,
I've just ordered a 358CRG reamer (35/300RCM) with removable pilot with an intention to later do a 0.411" version of the same. I also believe that the 10.75 ballsitics are a great place to be particularly from a short action.

To be different ... you could always go 0.408" and draw down Hornady's 300gr spitzer 0.411" projectiles to get your lightweights.
Cheers...
Con

The 35 version of the 300 RCM
will be stellar. Just convert a 350 Rem Mag.
Con...What a bout a 2.170" length to clean up a 350 Rem chamber?

It would be best to get a propper 1 in 12 twist anyhoo.

I also think a 375 RCM is needed too for 300 @ 2400

Although I think the 400 version would be best the 423 version would be way cool too.

I have always been a fan of the 35 sambar, which is very similar (358wsm). I pondered the .411 as well. Frankly, I'd like to do the WSSM case in .411 it "should" be pretty damn close to 411 Express/Hawk ballistics, which is no slouch.

I actually decided to go the 416 route! I submitted my case drawing to ammoguide, and will be talking with Pacific Tool after the start of the new year to try and get this thing rolling. I have dubbed it the 416 Short Thumper. Its still based on the 450 Marlin case, slightly blown out, with a 35 degree shoulder. SHOULD be right around 75grs water capacity. I think 10.75x68 ballistics wont be too far out of reach.

You cartridge almost sounds like a twin of the .416 Taylor. The Taylor is a 2.5" belted case that is usually loaded with 72.0gr of powder +/- 2gr, depending on the bullet and powder.

My cartridge to the 416 Taylor, is the 458x2" American to the 458 Win Mag

Think of it as a Taylor short. Taylor uses a 2.5" case for an OAL of 3.35" mine uses a 2.1" case for an OAL of 2.675"

Brain damage. I knew the case length of the Marlin is 2.1". I guess it's the 75gr of water capacity that threw me. The weight of a caseload of water and the weight of a caseload of powder are not the same thing. I'm alright. The world is all left.

Look at the 416 Aagard

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The 35 version of the 300 RCM
will be stellar. Just convert a 350 Rem Mag.
Con...What a bout a 2.170" length to clean up a 350 Rem chamber?

Boom stick,
Barrel will need a thread taken off at rear at most ... I've lucked into another Ruger stainless/synthetic 350RemMag and am planning to grab it for the 358CRG as I'm reluctant to rechamber my 350RemMag ... have an A&B 35cal blank coming too just in case I miss out and hence need to rechamber a Ruger MkII 308Win instead. It would also allow a head to head comparison between the two cartridges.

The 423, 416 versions of the WSM are done by a 'smith in Sydney as the Australian Stalker Series ... they produce good numbers too from a short-actioned rifle. In my case the reason I rejected the WSM case was potential difficulty getting it to feed from a re-worked 0.473" bolt-faced short action. I figure if a 350RemMag is an easy rechamber ... 358CRG wont be any more difficult.

MHS,
Ken Water's 416Express (416/350RM) is another cartridge in your power range. I've never seen fit to do one because lightweight 416cal pills aren't readily available in Australia. But that lovely Hornady 300gr spitzer 0.411" is like a sirens call ... plus a heavy Woodleigh 400gr. A 0.423" version using drawn down 0.429" pistol projectiles would be another neat little idea ... then use Woodleigh's 347gr for the 'real hunting'.
Cheers...
Con

I dont think there will be that much a capacity diff between a 350 rem mag and the 35 CRG that extra 70 thou would be an edge maker.

Boom stick -
416 Aagard is cool indeed...but already been done Great cartridge though, and I'm a big admirer of Fred Z and his passion for wildcats.

Also there should be a decent increase in powder capacity from the RCM case vs the 350RM. Remember, the RCM is the same width as the 350's belt. Base of the RM is....513 I think? And with the reduced taper, should amount to a few more grains of room.

Con - Well hell lol thats basically about what mine would be. Of course I'd have to look at the exact case dimensions of Water's cartridge. Looks like the only real difference though without specs, would be the wider belt of the Marlin case. Maybe I'll have to scrap the submission to ammoguide and reconfigure it back up to .423 bullets after all. I'd still love to use the full size heavy bullets like the 350 and 400's! Its not going to be buffalo charge stopping material, but it should still give me right at or slightly better ballistics then popular big bore lever actions, but from a short bolt action. I've even considered going the 458x2" idea, but with the 425 Express. Could call it the 425 SAE (short action express). Same idea as the top of this thread, but on the standard belted mag case rather then the Marlin. Just didnt want to have to deal with cutting .5" off the cases to THEN neck down and fire form. Figured the Marlin case would cut out that step.

Man, you guys are WAY more fun then my other shooting board lol I mentioned this idea and all i got was dozens of "get a 30-06" "9.3x62 will fit your needs" "convert a Saim mauser" and all kinds of other drek responses I did not ask for.

Con - forgot to ask. Are those 416 and 423 WSM's done by the same Aussie that did the 458 Alpine? I wonder if they have the same blown out improved case, or if they're more of an expanded caliber with the same taper/shoulder, like the 35 sambar. Man, you guys down there sure love wildcatting the WSM case lol

MHS,
The 458Alpine was Chris Boon's baby ... man we gave him hell over that one on one Australian forum. We like to stir each other up!! Chris is doing a 9.3 version at the moment and I think a small capacity 50cal ... I should drop him an email and see what he's up to. The 458Alpine by the way is his back-up rifle at the moment as he's guiding for his own company. Its now well proven, but I'm still a bit cautious about his pressures given that I have 4 pieces of his brass and two have ejector marks. Mind you he told me those two cases where from hot loads. This is his safari business website for interests sake:
http://reedysafaris.com/

The Australian Stalker series are by Clem Stevenson in Sydney and are straight WSM neckings up. He then supplies dies which are Lee 300WSM dies opened as they soft. I have a set of 303Brit being opened to 35cal at the moment.

Drop me a PM with an email address that'll take large files. I'm back at work on Monday and will feed you a few bits of info regarding the WSM based cats here in Oz. A mate of mine that's gone thirds in the 358CRG reamer by the way is running a 35Sambar and has verified that its 50-75fps behind a 358Norma. Not bad on a short actioned case!

You know ... it'd pay to get someone with QuickLoad to run some numbers for you on the 423" on a 450Marlin case at both 60k psi and 45k psi to see what numbers you'd get. Woodleigh's RN 347gr pills have a large enough lead nose to file back into a FN configuration ... be handy from a Marlin lever gun!
Cheers...
Con

Con - THANKS! I'll send you my email.

And my idea is NOT on a lever gun lol I just want to use the 450 Marlin case because its got the .532 rim and will go into a bolt action without any problems. Also, its the correct length so i dont have to go about chopping down other belted mags or straightening out 350 Rem Mag cases. Figured it would save me a few reloading steps, less wear and tear on the brass.

However, now I'm starting to think I might just use standard belted brass. I found some H&H brass DIRT cheap. Plus this way I could just have a 425 Express reamer cut down to 2.170" and not have to do all the exact math for the chamber drawing. Also, could just have the die's machined shorter.

5BB-

Congrats on a great rifle! I'm a fan of the 425 from what I know about it. My wild cat is your gun...but on a short action. Obviously it will be of lower power levels, but thats just fine for its intended purposes. Estimating about +/- 20% less powder capacity. Should still give me plenty of power to knock down all but the worlds nastiest ungulates.

FBB My 425 Express is based on a 300 Win case! No that I look at it a 2.5 case would work just fine.

FBB The reason I use 300 brass is because thats what it used to be. I've others complain about out of round necks and other assorted things but for what I'm doing they work fine. Any 338 brass I come buy gets fireformed in my 358 Norma.

Just an update, I have aquired my rifle! Well, its on layaway, but I should have it within a month or two. Its a Ruger All weather SS in 270wsm. It was just what I was looking for, and at 450$ not a bad deal! I intend to keep the project stainless, and IF I can get the larger barrel to fit in the stock (with modification of course) I'll keep the Ruger stock as its already got a nice Pachmyr pad on it. May or may not muzzle brake...we'll see how she shoots first. Probably go with an extra 1" of barrel just in case I decide to do the brake.

Also good news, if some things follow through here shortly, I might be able to aquire a used Win 70 Shadow in 25wssm....so my above mentioned .411wssm could become a reality as well! If that happens, I'm going to rework my original rifle to do the 420 SAE at 2" (425 Exp minus .5" = 420!) or possibly a bit longer, and see if I can't land on the x68 ballistics or even be chasing the heels of the 425Exp/404 Jeff. If I go this route, I'll change the stock, barrel band and express sights.

I'll keep everyone updated!

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:

However, now I'm starting to think I might just use standard belted brass. I found some H&H brass DIRT cheap. Plus this way I could just have a 425 Express reamer cut down to 2.170" and not have to do all the exact math for the chamber drawing. Also, could just have the die's machined shorter.

Good thinking, but cutting is more work than you think...and you might have to ream the neck inside...
The more I wildcat, the less fun caseworking is... I'd go with the Marlin Case, but that's me. Use the .425 Express reamer as it is, ream to desired length and turn the slot for the belt in the lathe, that is a cheaper way to go.

Necked down to .423 should give you a capasity of about 73 grs of water. That is about 7 grains less than my .425 Fossdal, and also your short magazine will force you to set the 400's deep... Maybe the WSSM would be the case to use...

It will be very exiting to see what it will do in real life!
Good luck and keep us posted!

Bent,

How is it exactly that you actually go about cutting the brass down? Kind of curious about this. You have it right with the marlin case though, its already proper length and saves some steps! That was my original intent. I really am excited for the 380gr North Forks to come back into production, thats what got me pushing forward on this idea in the first place. With a SD of .303 and a bit smaller bullet then the 400's I should be just about at the right case capacity.

The WSSM case would be an interesting one, but I think I would like to stick to the .411 on that one. I have only found 2 CRF wssm rifles, and they still want too much money for them. I'm starting to find the push feed wssm's more commonly at good donor action prices (under 500USD) and a .411 should give me a good shoulder to space on.

20 thou per side is enough shoulder.

Belts are less than that.

Marlin brass will be the right thickness at the neck unless you make an adjustment for the extra thickness in the dies and reamers.

It is hard to neck up wssm brass to 411 fyi but people have done it.

Boom -

I have done some research on the WSSM wildcats, and I think what I'd probably end up doing is using normal WSM thats rough formed, cut, then formed, then fireformed. Some guys that were doing 358 wssm's had problems with the necks holding up to much stretching, and found it a better option to use the cut down and reformed WSM brass. I finished up the design today, with blown out case. Not sure what the capacity would be, as I don't have access to that kind of software

I necked one up to 35 and it took a few attempts.

Wildcatting is a disease.

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
Bent,

How is it exactly that you actually go about cutting the brass down? Kind of curious about this. You have it right with the marlin case though, its already proper length and saves some steps! That was my original intent. I really am excited for the 380gr North Forks to come back into production, thats what got me pushing forward on this idea in the first place. With a SD of .303 and a bit smaller bullet then the 400's I should be just about at the right case capacity.

Many different ways to do that, easiest is a hack-saw, but you need a good hold for the case. Easy to make from soft steel and a chamber reamer, so the exess sticks out of the holder. Finnish in regular case trimming set.

Remember that the 380 Northfork is longer than many standard 400 grs, so even if light, it takes more room. Your best bet would be the 350 grs Woodleigh, its cannelure is located further to the rear than their 347 grs for the 10,75x68, but it is all about max length of magazine.

Thanks Bent!

Boom - I totally agree lol the only cure for wildcatting....is more wildcatting!

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd106x51.jpg

FYI

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
Bent,

How is it exactly that you actually go about cutting the brass down? Kind of curious about this. You have it right with the marlin case though, its already proper length and saves some steps! That was my original intent..

For large trim jobs, I use a bench grinder, I take one of the stones off and replace it with a steel cutting disk, wear gloves hold the case tight and cut off as much as you like. It's very quick

Smooth the edge of the case mouth on a sanding belt, the case gets hot, workable, deburr it and it's ready to run thru the die or do a final trim in a case trimmer

regards
S&F

You know guys, I was looking at the Barnes #4 today, which has actual size pictures of their bullets. The 416 and 423 (and .410 for that matter) bullets all look almost too long to really give me enough powder space in this cartridge to achieve my goals.....I used my Franklin Arsenal caliper to measure things out, using anything but the lightest bullets available in these calibers is going to eat nearly 1/3 of my case. AFter all this work, I think I might need to reevaluate my parent cartridge! Maybe I'd be better off using a WSM case, but with the 458 Alpine style blown out, sharp shouldered dimensions but at 423. I'll still be seating the bullets in kind of far to get it to feed...but I'll have a larger base volume to work with. UNLESS, the Ruger magazine happens to be a bit long....I won't know until I have the rifle home with me I guess. If I happen to run across a Win 70 CRF, this might work better with the 3.1" box.

quote:

Originally posted by MileHighShooter:
You know guys,.

Yes, we did, but that is what catting is about, we all have to figure it out ourselves!

Thw wsm is a good case for this thing, keep going!

LoL and I appreciate the encouragement and guidance rather then just critical negativity.

I played around with more numbers last night and I'm liking what might be possible with the .411 and the WSM case. With some conservative velocities that look entirely possible, some loads push over 5000 ft lbs!!

I still want to play with the belted winmag case, but I'm going to work more on my other thread, using a 2.0" case with .429 bullets in a 2.360" wssm action.