Will do! I may give that a try tomorrow.

I think its finally sinking in to my cinder-block head that, I need the COW fire formed case first, so I can measure the water capacity, to develop a starting load in QL...

I hadn't connected those dots until just a lil while ago.

I know, I know... one of the pitfalls of being old

Good idea.
I was going to measure the case capacity of the not-fire-formed case I have, and that would be an underestimate of your cartridge case capacity, an error in the safe direction.
I will still do that.
If you get the gross water capacity of a fire-formed case that is merely shorter in the neck section,
it will be easy to calculate very closely what it will be when the cartridge is full length.
Sometimes I don't think of these things until you do.

a quick call to rcbs about the inside diameter of one of their 41 mag seater dies might be the answer to seating/crimping.
I'd really look into just having a die set made or call huntingtons/rcbs about what they have on the shelf already.
quite often things that seem new and outrageous to one guy is just another green box on a shelf to someone else.
make sure you have some decent dimensions on hand as the round may have a name or the name might have changed over the years.

I have a new one coming in soon I need to work with some.
it's a hybrid case between the 8m mauser and the 0-6 in 30 caliber.
I have the case sizer die worked out, I'm working on an inline seater and a swage die from a couple of different sources.
yeah a 115-120 gr 30 cal [home made bullet] varmint rifle.
that's gonna serve dual purpose as a 165gr naked lead [cast] boolit deer hunting rifle.

I need more free time..

Boyd's Classic



OK so I am still a novice and maybe my nomenclature is wrong but, I like how it looks and feels!

7-1/2-lbs as it sits - that's gonna leave a mark.

That's perfect. Needs to fire-form some brass.

You betcha!

I have some work to do to fit the stock, pillar & MarineTex bed, and then I can fire form!

While I am waiting for dies I can get with the NECG sights, maybe a muzzle break, and I am very tempted to rust blue it...

Then I can work on the stock blank at my leisure...

I don't know if I should start another thread for some tangential discussion about this rifle but I will post here and endure the wrath if I have blundered

I will try to be concise:

I would like some opinions on NECG sights - what style is preferred, and why. I am not sure if I like the banded fronts, but I know that banded is somewhat more traditional.

I never realized how awesome that stock Mauser safety is until I dropped this action into the stock and flipped it around a bit - I do have a Dakota 3-position I could install, but I am tempted to leave that stock safety right where it is - keep in mind that as of right now I do NOT intend to drill and tap the receiver so any scope that goes on the rifle most probably will be mounted forward of the receiver, scout scope style - opinions please?

One heck of a brush gun, huh?

NECG Masterpiece banded front ramp, hood, and why not a pop-up H&H moon bead?
I used to do those when I had sights installed on barrel.

Or get the gold patridge/sourdough blade, that works well with a peep, or flat-top, square-notch rear open sight.
Your choice, shallow V and beads or as above.

Yes, if iron sights only, leave the MAUSER SAFETY AS IS, can't beat it.
No hard-wiring problems with that: Push down to left with right thumb is not confusing at all.

Better than a 3-POS M70-style in that when it is standing straight up it is a real FLAG requiring attention to ready for FIRE when you raise the rifle.

USPS is turning "2-day" postage into "more-days" postage this time of year, eh? No brass yet?

I loathe the USPS...

How do you feel about the scout scope option?

I must confess, I know nothing about the H&H style sights, what the purpose of the folding hood is, or what in the heck a moon bead is

That Mauser safety is slicker than I would ever have imagined - I never thought to try one previously because every Mauser I've ever had, had a scope on it, and either a trigger safety or a Dakota safety (I do not like trigger safeties).

Quarter rib on the barrel to mount scout scope on?
If it will keep the FN Mauser action unmolested, I am all for YOU having a scout scope.
I would prefer a 2.5X Lepold Ultralight or a Nikon Monarch 1-4X24mm, etc.

I refer to H&H regarding the "moon bead" only, i.e., a flip-up ivory inserted Grandpa bead for dim light.
You can find several kinds of hoods at:

http://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/

http://newenglandcustomgun.com...ces/Front_Sights.asp

http://newenglandcustomgun.com...ices/Rear_Sights.asp

http://newenglandcustomgun.com...ices/Peep_Sights.asp

Here are some examples of the NECG stuff:

Recknagel:



My beloved sourdough/patridge gold blade on a .395 Tatanka, non-windowed hood, NECG Masterpiece banded ramp. Blade is too tall, to be filed down for sighting in:





Here is another sourdough/patridge blade on a .395 H&H, used with a Lyman peep:





Windowed hood, small gold bead, and flip-up "moon bead":









ERA rear sight:



A different hood, and porting through the band, done by Gunsmith:



Wisner copy of Winchester M70 African rear sight from the 1950s:




Found on a South Carolina Winchester M70 .458 Win Mag, recent make:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


Quarter rib on the barrel to mount scout scope on?
If it will keep the FN Mauser action unmolested, I am all for YOU having a scout scope.
I would prefer a 2.5X Lepold Ultralight or a Nikon Monarch 1-4X24mm, etc.

Where do I get that quarter rib?

Get Gil Van Horn to copy a Ruger No. 1 quarter rib with any rings you want.
Or find something nice in Brownell's catalog?
Here is a Gil Van Horn front sight from the 1991 Guns Annual,
on the wildcat 500 Van Horn Express:

Something tells me that would cost more than 3 of my rifles combined!

OK time to get SolidWorks going and see what I can figure out...

You and I and Lamar must be the only three people reading this thread!

Brownell's no longer stocks Dakota quarter ribs, but I can buy a Dakota quarter rib blank direct from Dakota for $75 - a little pricey but better than starting from scratch.

Now I have to measure and document my barrel taper - their blanks are contoured for either Shilen or Douglas tapers, but still have to be fit to the barrel.

Post Office FINALLY comes through...





Thank you Mr. RIP!

Great. Now I feel bad about keeping the eleventh case as a souvenir,
though I did load it nicely with a Hornady .405 WCF case mouth belling die, and an RCBS .416 Taylor seating die.
Maybe a make-do with some .41 RM or .44 RM handgun dies (on neck area only, of course) would work also?
No need to crimp, just seat the bullet deep enough to chamber about 50-thou off the lands, if you want to start off with full pressure/medium pressure loads.

Start by fire forming one piece of Carpooler brass and let us in the peanut gallery pass judgement on the results with Bullseye-COW recipe.
Then you can measure the water capacity of the first fully fire-formed one, and we can calculate a good estimate of full length brass.

Dwarfs the power of a 45-70.

Carpooler keeps referring to 12 cases but I only received 11? Stuff happens...

I will post after COW.

41 Remington Magnum, hmmm...

Hi Karl,

The 41 Remington Magnum handgun dies from Hornady worked perfectly.
I pulled the SP bullet, resized the necks to the way your RIP brass is, and then ...

I inserted a spent/dented primer in the bottom of the 2.580"-long RIP case, the only one I have. Good thing I kept it.

I determined the gross water capacity of this PRE-FIRE-FORMING case: 92.4 grains H2O

Then I dried the case and filled it with Bullseye to the top, and weighed this charge: 57.4 grains

Bullseye is light and fluffy.
Only 5.7 grains of Bullseye should be used as the starting charge for COW forming of the RIP brass.
If you choose to do this, then increase the charge in 0.5 grain increments if the previous one did not fully fire-form.

But now I am much hotter to see you fill the RIP cases with primer, powder, and 300-grain Hornady .411 FP.
You can forget the COW for the RIP cases.

Here is the 404 Express F. N. Barnes loaded with your chosen bullet. Perfect:



Here are the dies I loaded the bullet with, quite easily, starting with RIP case just as you have them:



1. Use the middle die in the box to minimally up-size the neck, not too far, just the start of case mouth belling that you will feel by fingertip, checking as you go.
Not enough flare to see without close study under good light and bifocals.

2. Use the seater die on the right in the box to carefully seat bullet to middle of cannelure at case mouth level.

3. Remove the de-capper spindle from the FL size die, on the left in the box.
Then press the loaded case mouth into the opening at the bottom of the FL size die (gold-colored titanium nitride insert by Hornady).
Gentle as you go. Just enough to slightly crimp the case mouth into the cannelure of the bullet.
It works very well.

One die set is all you need. Hornady I will vouch for. Other brands may work as well.


Now some tentative load data from QuickLOAD,
a propellant table with 100% filling and 50,000 psi dual limits:






Pick a powder you have on hand that shows 90% to 100% usable case fill from this table.
All the loads shown are no more than 50,000 psi maximum, and between 85% and 100% case filling.
You cannot go wrong with any of them, but pressures in the 45,000 to 50,000 psi range at 100% fill is what I would go for.
That will definitely be easy on you and the rifle, and should be enough to perfectly form the brass,
though the necks may be smokey from such low pressure.

Here is ReLoder-17 from Alliant, my latest wonder powder, with a low-pressure, high-fill table, that shows your cartridge beats .375 H&H classic velocity and KE with 300-grainer,
at very low pressure.
The .375 H&H would be red in the face, maxed out well over 60K psi to do this.
RL-17 in PRE-FIRE-FORMING brass from RIP:



Tell me what powder you want to use and I will run that powder through QuickLOAD.

Note that since you are blowing the brass out to larger capacity, pressures and velocities will be slightly lower than predicted.
SAFER EVEN THAN THESE TABLES SHOW.

I believe I might try that BL-C2 - I have a pound of that! 95% and 50K PSI

Do I have that right?

I have GOT to get that program!

Dies ordered from Midway (on backorder).

QuickLOAD is great.
Hornady dies too.

I used the 400 Brown Whelen cartridge as a starting point for bore cross-sectional area. In the following load table for H322, I remembered to remove the "400 Brown Welen" subheading
and correct that to "404 Express F. N. Barnes."
However this is still for lesser capacity PRE-FIRE-FORMED brass.
When you get a fully formed case measured for H2O gross capacity, ballistics will improve.

Perfect choice for fire-forming, that H322.
Use the "NOMINAL" load below.
It will also be perfect for top end loads.

Karl,

I would consider 63,000 psi and 2700 fps with 300 grainers to be perfect with your cartridge.
You will need a tougher bullet like the Barnes .411/300-grain TSX if you want to hunt with it.
The Hornady bullets will hold together in air at that velocity, but if they hit a water jug at top speed from your cartridge,
results will be splashtacular.
Especially if you put red food coloring in the waterjug.
The Hornady SP and FP .411/300-grainers are meant for more sedate velocities of the 405 Win.
I used the SP on deer from my "400 Whelen Petrov," at just over 2300 fps MV, and results were explosive even at about 100 yards distance.

We'll be on pins and needles until you get those dies and can shoot some bullets.
Teach a man to fish ...

Meanwhile you can get a feel for COW fire-forming with the Carpooler brass?

Taking notes: gallon milk jugs, red food coloring, video camera... OK.

Thank you for everything, sir. You are a true gentleman! I bow my head to you!

Edit - I thought the H322 fell below the 95% threshold you mentioned thus the BL-C2 revision.

I actually have more H322 so I will go with that.

quote:

Originally posted by Quick Karl:
Edit - I thought the H322 fell below the 95% threshold you mentioned thus the BL-C2 revision.

I actually have more H322 so I will go with that.

I changed my recommendation.
90% to 100% fill is now preferred at near 50,000 psi. Edited above.
Actually anything between 85% and 100% fill is good,
but I hate air space in a case.
I am tempted to use a filler with anything less than 100% full case.
I always go for 100% to 105% compressed loads with extruded powders.
Avoid compression with ball powders.
I generally avoid ball powders except for things like 223 burn-em-up ammo where I just throw the powder charges from a measure without weighing each and every one.

64.7 grains of H322: 92% fill, 100% burn, 2529 fps, 49,965 psi
300-grain Hornady FP
F-215, or CCI 250, or WLRM, take your pick of primer, any "Large Rifle Magnum Primer."
COAL: 3.123"
Crimp lightly or don't crimp.

Actual velocity and pressure will be lower since your chamber is bigger than the case being blown out to fit your chamber.
Don't whimp out and reduce the load from nominal above.
When you get a fully formed case you will need another QuickLOAD prediction from the new water capacity measured.
Things will only get better.


I love H322, an extruded Hodgdon Extreme powder, temperature insensitive, fast, always close to QuickLOAD predictions with my lots so far.

Hate BL-C2, a Hodgdon ball powder.

Glad you have some H322.
I am down to my last 2 pounds of it.
Will be buying an 8-pound jug of it next time I buy powder.

I was afraid to express the same feelings re: H322 and BL-C2 -- I had very poor results in other calibers with that BL-C2 and great results with H322 - but I'm not as much of an expert as you are! H322 is great in my 45/70 with 430g bullets!

I can't wait for those dies to show up!

Purely speculatively, sir.

What do you suppose a maximum load would be for this rifle/cartridge, using 400g bullets? Not looking for anything specific or a QuickLoad exercise - lord knows you've done way more than enough already - but more as a general information question, as a talking-point so to speak, for the maximum safe potential of the rifle?

I know that the .404 B-J Express is supposed to be capable of pushing a 400g bullet somewhere in the vicinity of 2400 fps - I wondered how for off of that this 404 EXP FNB might be, in your estimation.

My amateur guess is that the 404 EXP FNB should be similar to the 416 Ruger?

Thank you

24"-barreled 404 Express FNB:

400 gr Woodleigh .411"-diameter RN SN, assumed to be 1.298" long
and seated to COAL of 3.342" in 2.580" brass with PRE-FIRE-FORMING case capacity of 92.4 grains of H2O:

73.9 gr of Alliant Reloder-17 (103% filling) >>> 2401 fps >>> 5119 ft-lbs.KE >>> 63,000 psi >>> 100% burn
.
.
.
65.0 gr of Alliant Reloder-17 (90% filling) >>> 2129 fps >>> 4025 ft-lbs.KE >>> 42,321 psi >>> 98.1% burn

RL-17 is the top-velocity powder from the table limited to 63,000 psi and 105% usable-case-filling load, i.e., "mildly compressed."

If you fire-form the cases and have greater capacity to start with, maybe another powder will top 2400 fps.

You are handicapped until you get some brass fire-formed,
so, no sense belittling your cartridge with lesser ballistics than it is capable of. Hint, hint.

There are also .410"/400gr Hornady bullets to try,
and they will work well, except will cause lower pressure and velocity,
unless you use a faster powder in enough charge to get the pressures and velocities back up to max.

Yes, I would say your rifle is capable of more than 2400 fps with 400-grainer,
just how much more will depend on pressures you want to operate at.
More than adequate for elephant and cape buffalo.
Even 2125 fps with .410/400-grainer in the 450/400 Nitro Express 3" is supposed to be a giant-killer.

My little "400 Whelen Berry" will easily do 2200 fps with 400-grain Woodleigh, using H4895.
Like a magic wand.

PS: You might want to be on the lookout for some RL-17.
Ditto H4895, Varget, IMR-4895, and RL-15 for 400-grainers.
Grab a pound to try if you find any of those not already in your powder magazine.
You'll get about 100 shots per pound of powder with the 400-grainers, more or less, depending on how fast you want the bullets to go.

WOW!

It looks like my .404 EXP FNB is one impressive little varmint gun! I have lots of Varget, works fantastic in my lil .223



Best group I ever shot in my life, and I pulled that last shot and was really angry with myself!

I sure wish I lived in Kentucky because, what a pleasure it would be to go shooting with you, sir.

Thank you, again.

Hi Karl,

Good to see you can load and shoot so well.
I feel better about turning you loose with wildcat fire-forming instructions now.
I expect you will gitterdun.

Thank you, sir.

Please trust that I always err on the side of caution, period.

Now I have to get after bedding my "temporary stock" so that it is ready, when my dies show up!

Probably will have to wait until after Christmas to do my COW fire forming, but I will post photos as soon as that task is complete.

If not for you, sir, this rifle would have been trashed. She, and me, are in your debt.

I would like to wish RIP, and all of your loved ones, and everyone else that has contributed to saving this rifle , a very Merry Christmas, and again reiterate my heartfelt thank you for your amazing generosity! And thank you to Saeed for a great forum full of outstanding people from whom I have learned a great deal.

Hope you and your loved ones all have a wonderful holiday!

Humbly,

Thank you!

I sure hope I didn't offend anyone with my Christmas wish? If I did, I assure you, that was the farthest thing from my heart.

Jeez Karl!
Of course you did not offend anybody. Bah! Humbug!
We are just getting bored here with all the holiday cheer.

Lately, where I am, if it is not near-freezing rain, it is freezing rain, or snowing and I do not chronograph outdoors much.
I am hoping for above freezing temps and adequate sunlight come Saturday or Sunday so I can fire off some 400 Whelen B and 500 Bateleur loads that are sitting here.

I have the wildcatitis as bad as ever.
Shall I abuse you with the sordid details?
Go here, if you dare:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/2601010591/p/2

Just waiting for you to fire-form a case for our entertainment, and further discussion,
but do understand the involuntary inactivity caused by life getting in the way of hobby.

Happy New Year!

Alrighty...

Lee pistol dies arrived today - removed the de-capping pin and neck sized and seated bullets to 3.123 - took the firing pin out of the bolt and rounds cycled surprisingly nicely but I suspect they will feed even better when the shoulder is blown out to its intended size, which should align bullets to feed ramp a little better.



Hopefully I can get some aluminum pillars made this week and bed the Boyd's stock and, once that is complete, get this thing booming!

I was thinking of loading carpooler's brass using the same data but, carpooler's brass is shorter, and I think it might have a bit more taper because when I charged one of his cases the powder level was up right at the shoulder...

Quick Karl,
Well done with make-do dies.
That looks great.
What powder charge did you decide to use with those .411/300-grain Hornady bullets?
H322 about 65 grains?
You will have some nicely formed cases soon after the bedding cures, eh?.
Let us know how long the brass is after initial fire-forming.

Karl,

Be glad your fire-forming is so simple, "once and done" unlike this world-record holder using his wildcat.
From a thread in the "Reloading" forum, the red-colored text, bolding, and emoticons below are my additions to the article's text.
The interesting thing is that a Hornady Custom die was used to load the world record setting ammo:

quote:

Originally posted by tom holland:
Here is new BR smallest group shot by 30 cal
http://bulletin.accurateshoote...up-the-gun-and-ammo/

0.0077" Five-Shot, 30-Caliber, 100-Yard Record Group:

About the Cartridge — 30 Stewart (Based on Lapua 6.5 Grendel Parent Brass)

Mike explains: “Our goal was to shoot H4198 as the optimal powder for stability.
Temperature stability?
There were several versions of the reamer before we settled on the current configuration. I am optimized for the 10 Ogive BIB bullet,
powder to the base of the bullet. I found in testing the small 30-cal case did not like compression at all. The bullet is seated only 0.12″ into the case with zero freebore.

This cartridge has ALF's piezometric efficiency, and a lot more going for it.

Cases were initially created with the .220 Russian (like a PPC) but I later decided it was better to build from the 6.5 Grendel. I size the brass and bump the shoulder back until it will fit into the chamber, fill to shoulder with International Clays, cotton wad packed on top. I have a fire-forming barrel. (I would not recommend this Clays and cotton wad method in a good barrel.) After initial fire-forming, I then mandrel the neck up the rest of the way to .30 caliber, turn the necks and trim.

It takes at least 8 firings to fully form a case!


If you fire only three loads I find the brass does not have a sharp shoulder or any pressure on the bolt so any die selection is incorrect.
Brass continues to harden well past 25 firings.



I have match brass with well over 500 rounds fired, and I have never blown a case or neck yet (using my forming method).



For loading I use a Hornady Custom Shop Sizing Die


and a Ralph Stewart Custom Seating Die. For those who are curious, yes the small group was fired with pre-loaded rounds. I do this now and then with local matches or may load 50 in a batch for one match."



More, unadulterated by me:

http://bulletin.accurateshoote...077-five-shot-group/

Sure is a tiny group!

I am glad my brass is going to be somewhat easier to develop!

Curious as to the naming of this cartridge if anyone can shed some light. Is the "404" meant to refer to the bore size and whoever chambered this thing just grabbed the nearest available barrel which was .405 bore?