Hey, didn't Ted Williams bat .400?

I have a mind to Bat .400 by screwing a .400-bore/.408-caliber barrel onto the Winchester which is currently a .492 Bateleur aka 12.7x68 Magnum/49-10
This would make the Winchester a switch-hitter.

The metric designation for the 400 Bateleur could be "10.4x68 Magnum."
And since this won't happen until 2014, a nickname for the cartridge will be the "40-14" you know, like "30-06."

Not bad Ron, though I notice you're maintaining the same neck wall thickness as the parent case. Won't the neck thin some when upsizing from .338 caliber to .408 caliber?

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Not bad Ron, though I notice you're maintaining the same neck wall thickness as the parent case. Won't the neck thin some when upsizing from .338 caliber to .408 caliber?

Jim,

I have necked up both Lapua-brand and Hornady-brand .338 Lapua Magnum brass and measured it.
Best I can tell, the neck wall thickness of brass goes from .015" to .014" in the extreme, no more. Only 0.001" thinning.

Max brass neck spec for the .338 Lapua Magnum is 0.372" at both neck-1 and neck-2.
0.372" - 0.338" = 0.034"
Divide that by 2 to get a max neck wall thickness of 0.017".

Actual loaded ammo:
Lapua, Hornady, and Norma, all:
Neck-1 = 0.367" to 0.369", indicating average neck wall thickness of 0.0150"
Neck-2 = 0.367" to 0.368", indicating average neck wall thickness of 0.0145".

Neck-2 is at the case mouth.
Since neck-1 is at the shoulder juncture, being a little thicker there makes sense,
as that is where the dreaded doughnuts can grow when former shoulder area becomes neck in necking up.
Lapua-brand seems to be thicker in the shoulder area, brass wall thickness.

Necking up to 400 Bateleur and loading .408 bullets, for measurement of neck diameters:

Hornady-brand, neck-1 = 0.438" diameter, neck-2 = 0.436":
0.015" neck wall thickness at shoulder juncture
0.014" neck wall thickness at case mouth

Lapua-brand, neck-1 = 0.440" diameter, neck-2 = 0.436":
0.016" neck wall thickness at shoulder juncture
0.014" neck wall thickness at case mouth

I am going to arbitrarily specify 0.439" as neck-2, and 0.440" as neck one for brass maximums.
Chamber neck minimums will be 0.004" bigger in diameter at neck-1 and neck-2 than the brass maximums.
Hopefully this will allow me to get by with no inside neck reaming.
This way there is only 0.001" of taper in the chamber neck.
I think it will work.
The worst that can happen is that I will have to inside-neck ream, an easy chore, done after an initial fire forming.

If no inside neck reaming is required, then all I have to do is neck up the brass from .338 bullet to .408 bullet acceptance,
trim off just a few thou to reach 2.680-2.690" brass length,
and go hunting.
This could be as easy as it it gets for wildcatting.

The neck-up process produces brass like so:

Hornady-brand cases that averaged 2.717" long as .338LM shortened to 2.689" after the 400 Bateleur neck-up.

Lapua-brand cases that averaged 2.720" long as .338LM shortened to 2.693" after the 400 Bateleur neck-up.

Using either case, the shortening by neck-up from .338 to .408 causes 0.027"-0.028" shortening,
and produces cases on either side of 2.690" by 1 or 3 thou difference.
And they all looked very uniform and square, so little trimming will be needed.
Just a few thou trim to uniform and square.
I have it "made in the shade with this wildcat" at max brass 2.690" and trim to 2.680".
I have grabbed this wildcat by the short hairs,
or this eagle by the short feathers.

Above QL is for a .411/300gr Barnes TSX sized to .408, hypothetical: Almost 3000 fps from a 24" barrel.
Smokin'.

The GSC FN .408/385gr FN (SD = 0.330) shows well over 2600 fps in a 24" barrel: See QL coming up below.
Smokin'.

Both of these loads are short enough in COAL to fit in 3.600" magazine box.

BTW, both of those loads feed like greased owl poop, in the Winchester M70 as well as a Dakota-76-African-actioned rifle on hand.

Ron,

Extremely good info, thanks...

Once we get unpacked in our new residence in late January I'll have to send you a couple of .415 Bateleur (.423 caliber) cartridges for a 3.6" magazine and for CZ"s 3.9" (approx) magazine.

Just thought, doesn't the M70 full length magazine measure 3.65" internal length?

Oops, never fails I should re-read a couple of times before responding.

Anyway looking specifically a case length reduction of Lapua mfg'd Lapua Magnum brass.

Using your neck expansion die you lost 0.027" in case length simply upsizing from .348.338 caliber to .408 caliber. Also with this process the difference between N1 and N2 increased from the .338 LM spec of 0.0024" to 0.004" for the 400 Bateleur.

Looking back at your fire forming process for the 49-10 cartridge. Fire forming the case only resulted in case length reduction of 0.010" when going from .338 caliber to .500 caliber. Also the N1 to N2 neck diameter difference was less than 0.0024" when loaded (best of my recollection).

I perceive your .338 LM fire forming load in your .400 Bateleur will result in a FF'd case length reduction of between 0.003"-0.005" which will leave your case well in excess of 2.710" length.

Guess my question is whether you want to reduce the .400 Bateleur case length so much below the .338 LM specification solely based on use of the neck expansion die.

And if you throw the Captech/Jamison .338 LM cylinder brass into the mix it further questions such a shortened case.

Really no reason not to spec the trimmed case neck length at less than a full caliber length which would give you a 2.712" case trim length vs your current 2.690" case length with 2.680" trim length specifications.

Just something to noodle about...

Merry Christmas Everyone!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Ron,

Extremely good info, thanks...

Once we get unpacked in our new residence in late January I'll have to send you a couple of .415 Bateleur (.423 caliber) cartridges for a 3.6" magazine and for CZ"s 3.9" (approx) magazine.

That would be nice, I'll swap wildcat dummies with you, your pick of oddity in return for yours.

Just thought, doesn't the M70 full length magazine measure 3.65" internal length?

IIRC, the old Pre-64 M70 Win. box is right at 3.60" long but wider than the M70 Classic from Connecticut box, which was about 3.62" long inside but a little skinnier.
I don't recall the latest South Carolina/FN box dimensions for the .375 H&H, but will try to go measure that "Alaskan" model on hand ...

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Oops, never fails I should re-read a couple of times before responding.

Anyway looking specifically a case length reduction of Lapua mfg'd Lapua Magnum brass.

Using your neck expansion die (dies) you lost 0.027" in case length simply upsizing from .348 (.338) caliber to .408 caliber. Also with this process the difference between N1 and N2 increased from the .338 LM spec of 0.0024" to 0.004" for the 400 Bateleur.
(Basically, without specifying the numerical digits which are difficult to accurately measure: Lapua-brand brass has a greater wall thickness in the shoulder area than Hornady-brand, apparently, so neck-1 is a little greater in diameter with the Lapua-brand, after necking up, whereby some of the previous shoulder brass has become neck brass.)

Looking back at your fire forming process for the 49-10 cartridge. Fire forming the case only resulted in case length reduction of 0.010" when going from .338 caliber to .500 caliber. Also the N1 to N2 neck diameter difference was less than 0.0024" when loaded (best of my recollection).

Fire-forming with a full-power .338 Lapua Magnum cartridge rattling a .338 bullet along a .500-caliber barrel obviously produces different results from just necking up with neck expander dies, where the forces are only downwards and radial spreading as the tapered expander is shoved into the brass case mouth. And the former takes place in fractions of a millisecond versus a full second or more.
Likewise, Cream O' Wheat and pistol powder fire-forming produces longer length brass than does having a full caliber bullet jammed into the lands with a normal pressure fire-forming load, as Rusty and I found out with the 400 Whelen.
I can only report what I observe.
Fully understanding and explaining the dynamics of the processes is a different thing. That is currently at the speculation stage for me.

I perceive your .338 LM fire forming load in your .400 Bateleur will result in a FF'd case length reduction of between 0.003"-0.005" which will leave your case well in excess of 2.710" length.

Not going to happen. I am using the die-neck-up method since it works so well in this case and fits in with the Bateleur progression so far. See below.

Guess my question is whether you want to reduce the .400 Bateleur case length so much below the .338 LM specification solely based on use of the neck expansion die.

Yes.

And if you throw the Captech/Jamison .338 LM cylinder brass into the mix it further questions such a shortened case.

Not a problem. The RotoZip saw trims cases very well, if I ever want to quickly shorten the Captech cylindrical.

Really no reason not to spec the trimmed case neck length at less than a full caliber length which would give you a 2.712" case trim length vs your current 2.690" case length with 2.680" trim length specifications.

A .386" neck length will be fine on the .408-caliber 400 Bateleur. After all, that is a lot longer than the neck on the 500 Jeffery.
400 Bateleur neck = 95% of caliber.
500 Jeffery neck = 67% of caliber.

Just something to noodle about...

Thanks, Jim, the noodling was appreciated.

Merry Christmas Everyone!

And a Happy New Year!

Jim, here is the list of Bateleur line Cartridges with brass case maximum lengths I have come up with through the various fire-forming and die-neck-up procedures used to get here.

I am also adding in the .475/.338LM cat for which a rifle does not exist,
and the ".423/.416 Rigby Improved Plus" aka "404 RIP" or ".423/.338 Lapua Long" which exists as a 23"-barreled Dakota 76 African.
I tried a straight neck-up of .423/.338LM and noted no betterment over standard 404 Jeffery ballistics. So that 24" barrel was cut off at the breech and became the 404 RIP.
Not sure how this fits into the "Bateleur Line."

.300 Lapua Magnum: 2.724" (69.20mm) brass and 3.681" COAL per Lapua, Proprietary.

.338 Lapua Magnum: 2.724" brass and 3.681" COAL per Lapua. Military designation: 8.6x70mm

.375/.338 Lapua Magnum aka "9.5x69 Tornado" aka "9.5x70 Magnum" which is the latest designation: 2.713" brass and 3.446" COAL per Waffen JUNG G.m.b.h.

.395/.338 Lapua Magnum aka "398 Lapua Magnum": 2.700" brass max

.408/.338 Lapua Magnum aka "400 Bateleur": 2.690" brass max

.423/.338 Lapua Magnum: 2.680" brass max

.423/.416 Rigby Improved Plus aka "404 RIP": 2.880" brass max (20-degree shoulder)

.458/.338 Lapua Magnum: 2.667" brass max

.475/.338 Lapua Magnum: 2.657" brass max

.500/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved aka "12.7x68 Magnum/49-10": 2.657" brass max

.510/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved aka "500 Bateleur": 2.700" brass max from Captech International cylindrical.
All the rest from Lapua-brand .338 Lapua Magnum.

Pictures:

L to R:
.308, .338, .375, .395, .408, .423, .458, .475, .500, .510 (with sherical abberation by camera lens)


The lone long one above (.423) is lined up with the others below.
L to R:
.395 Tatanka, 404 RIP, 470 Mbogo (by Dave Estergaard), 500 Mbogo (homage to Dave Estergaard)


Here are my 5 wildcats of .395-caliber.
L to R:
400/.395 Nitro Express, .395 H&H, .395 Ruger Max, 398 Lapua Magnum, .395 Tatanka


A trio of cartridges some would say I have RIPped off:
The .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012 was successfully "reverse engineered" as a copy of Saeed's wildcat,
far left below, with a 300-grain TSX bullet long-loaded, to Rigby box length.
Next to it, to the right, is the .375/.338 Lapua Magnum (9.5x70 Magnum of Waffen JUNG) which has same case capacity, long-nose-loaded with a 300-grain Walterhog bullet.
I started the .375/.338 Lapua Magnum in 2003 before I knew a German had already perfected it. To 2RECON, Michael in Germany:
To right of those are the 400 Whelen Berry of 2013, after and before fire-forming the brass. This is the 400 Whelen Petrov of 2003 that I re-did with throat and neck modifications to rifle chamber, uses same reloading dies, different chamber reamer, works well.
The original 400 Whelen of 1923 used a .409-caliber barrel and bullets instead of the .411-caliber used by G&H subsequently.
Such a Griffin & Howe .411-caliber rifle was the basis for the chamber cast used by Mr. Petrov to do his "400 Whelen" with proper shoulder dimensions.

L to R:
.375/404 Jeffery Saeed, 9.5x70 Magnum, 400 Whelen B fire-formed (Qual cart brass), 400 Whelen B pre-fire-forming (AHR brass)

That is most of my wildcatting history, except for getting my own versions of the 12GaFH-3.85" and 20GaFH-3.5" chamber reamers done by Dave Kiff,
to fit RMC turned-brass cases into NEF heavy-barreled, fully rifled, single-shot shotguns.
I need a 400 Bateleur and a .475/.338 Lapua Magnum to gitterdun to more satisfaction than I ever planned.
It just happened that way.

The Bore-size Bateleur names are pretty obscure sounding.
I reckon I should just go by bullet diameter and acknowledge any aka names as footnotes in the lore, of this "Pounce of Wildcats."

Trying to herd wildcats: It ain't easy. You need a lead cat, like a lead dog, pulling the sled, to turn a pounce of cats into a convocation of eagles.

"A Pounce of Eagles"

.308 Bateleur (differs in throat and bullet diameter specs from the Lapua Proprietary ".300 Lapua Magnum")
.338 Lapua Magnum (aka 8.6x70mm, actual is 8.59x69.19mm. This the "lead cat," the Honorary Bateleur: .338 LM-HB)
.375 Bateleur (9.5x70 Magnum with .375 Wby CIP spec throat ... 70mm is "nominal," actual brass length is 68.91mm, aka 9.5x69mm Tornado.)
.395 Bateleur (398 Lapua Magnum)
.408 Bateleur
.423 Bateleur Long (404 RIP)
.458 Bateleur
.475 Bateleur
.500 Bateleur (12.7x68 Magnum/49-10)(actual brass length 67.49mm)
.510 Bateleur (12.95x68.58mm)

OK, enough nonsense.
There can be only two Bateleur rifle cartridges:
500 Bateleur, and 400 Bateleur.
All else is either too puny or too excessive or already named.
A battery of two covers it all.
Both can be made to work in 3.5" to 3.6" magazine length with general purpose hunting bullets appropriate for any big game that walks the earth.
And both can be loaded single-shot-mode for special purpose VLD bullets.
A complimentary pair of cartridges for sporting rifles.



All the rest of my wildcats and the proprietary rounds of others that already have names, won't be clowned around with by me, hereafter.

Here is the .408-caliber Barnes-CH4D TSX formed from the 300-grain/.411-caliber TSX from Barnes, a general purpose bullet that will get near 3000 fps in the 400 Bateleur:



I used the automotive STP Oil Treatment as a lube, and passed the bullet through .410", .408" and .407" CH4D bullet-sizing dies, with a 1-ton arbor press.
It came out at .408" after recovering from that process, with a minor diameter in the grooves of .394", and a length of 1.261".

Pictured below, a Winchester M70 .400 Bateleur on the left, and an FN Mauser M98 .500 Bateleur on the right:

Hey Ron,

I’ve not been ducking your posts; played golf yesterday and ‘noodled’ your postings last night and this morning. I actually wrote a lengthy response on my iPad but punched the wrong screen button and deleted it rather than posting it so will try again without losing much of my thought process (hopefully).

Nope, I deleted the follow up one as well – this time intentionally. I could done a .416 caliber wildcat which definitely would have been a smarter decision but no I had to be different and go .423 caliber so I’ll try for a short version and try to stay on track with the .423 caliber cartridge issue.

quote:

I tried a straight neck-up of .423/.338LM and noted no betterment over standard 404 Jeffery ballistics. So that 24" barrel was cut off at the breech and became the 404 RIP.

That to me is one of the plus-factors for a .423/.338 LM wildcat, as the shorter length/larger diameter case allows the use of bullets with normal-range nose projections vis-à-vis the short-nose projection bullets required with the .404 Jeffery, except when used in magnum-length actions.

My current .423 caliber LM wildcat is spec’d at 2.65” Max Case-OAL which is the longest case length that I can use with my 320gr .423 CEB MTH Multi-Narrow-Band (MNB) copper hollow point spitzer (CHPS). I basically built the case around the bullet. The bullet I had Dan design for use in a 2.480” Max Case-OAL cartridge with a 3.43” Max Cartridge-OAL. The shorter case was dropped after I adopted your 49-10 which just happened to work perfect with my 430gr .500 CEB MTH MNB CHP at your specified 2.647” case trim length. This case also has a 35º shoulder angle to allow a decent neck length at the 2.65” MC-OAL.

Ok back to .423 caliber issues…
My .423 caliber LM wildcat uses a Wiebe’ 4MJ bottommetal which has been slightly modified internally to better match the cartridge base and shoulder diameters, the base to shoulder length, the case taper, and the larger neck and bullet diameters. I understand very little machining was required. The current magazine modification will accommodate the current configured LM case or a LM case with a longer neck length.

Custom bullet…
The 320gr .423 CEB MTH MNB CHPS has a nose protrusion from base of SealTite Band to meplat of 0.9405”; it can be seated +0.030”/-0.100” and still maintain proper head tension.

Future issues and probabilities…
Once the current crop of 320gr MTH bullets are consumed to the point of re-order time it’ll be decision time regarding both the bullet and the cartridge.

For the re-order I’m pondering having Dan take his 350gr .416 MTH-V11 CHPS bullet which has a confirmed 550 BC at 1,000 yards and upsize it to .423 caliber. I’ll also have the MTB banding added to reduce the amount of material displaced by the rifling which will also reduce barrel pressure. I figure the larger diameter will add 5grs-10grs weight which reducing the BC by 25-50 points. This bullet will have a nose protrusion of 0.784” from SealTite Band to meplat, a reduction of 0.1565” from the original bullet.

The new re-dimensioned bullet would allow use of a 2.796” Case-OAL while maintaining the current Cartridge-OAL without magazine modification. So, if I decide to redo the bullet the original .338 LM cartridge and chamber length specifications could be maintained, though upsized to .423 caliber appropriately. Of course reamers, gauges and reloading dies would be ordered to accommodate the re-chambering job before any changes are undertaken.

And using the same bullet length and nose projection of the 350gr .416 MTH-V11, with MNB banding added, upsized to .500 caliber ought to add 25grs-30grs to the current 430gr MTH bullets weight which increasing its BC by close to 50pts. And of course it’ll allow a longer case as well…

In either case, should I go with the longer cases and re-dimensioned bullets the intent will be to build the cartridges for 3.6” magazines without accommodating the shorter 3.4” magazines.

Anyway just something more to noodle about…

By the way, nice picture!

Jim,
Thanks for the interesting noodling. I read it twice and decided to just doodle on cartridge cases instead of further noodling on bullets, for now.
I will return to bullet noodling with you later.

Doodling:
My first thought of wildcatting the .338 LM was to do a .416/.338 LM, to come full circle from .416 Rigby.
Like with you, it never happened for me. For me it was because it would only equal (though in a shorter case) the recently available .416 Rigby factory ballistics. That was about 15 years ago for me, but I do have the dummy:

Cartridges, bullets, and COALs from left to right:

1. .375/404 Jeffery Saeed, 300 gr TSX, COAL of 3.755"
2. .400 Bateleur, 300-grain TSX re-sized from .411 to .408", COAL of 3.435"
3. 400 Whelen B, .411/300-gr Hornady SP, COAL 3.235"
4. .416/.338 Lapua Magnum, 370-gr NF SS, COAL 3.550"
5. .423/.338 Lapua Magnum, 320-gr GSC HV, COAL 3.550"
6. 404 RIP, 320-gr GSC HV, COAL 3.745"




Yes, it is certainly nice to work with a 3.6" box length.

FN/SC Winchester M70 .375 H&H box dimensions of late ... this is for sheetmetal box, removed from rifle,
inside-box measurements for length and widths,
and external dimensions for height or depth of box, approximately:

Length: 3.628"
width at front: 0.750"
width at rear: 0.850"
depth at front: 1.465"
depth at rear: 1.655"

Both of these 12.7x68 Magnum/49-10 rifles are excellent.
The one with the muzzle brake will stay like it is.
The one without the muzzle brake will be switch-barreled for the .400 Bateleur.
It holds 1+3, four cartridges and feeds perfectly with the .408/385-gr GSC FN at 3.560" COAL, and the re-sized .408/300-grain TSX-CH4D at either 3.335", 3.435" or 3.535" COAL.
These COALs are with max brass length of 2.690".

Jamison International used to make a .408/305-grain "Battlefield Domination" bullet.
Chey-Tac USA sells one still.
These are solid-copper-pointy-boat-tail bullets not appropriate for hunting.


Am I going to have to custom order a .408/300-grainer for the .400 Bateleur, for varmint hunting?

This "450/400 Dedicated" bullet could be rededicated to .400 Bateleur:

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/410325HV170.html

This is perfect!
Meant for .400-bore, .410 groove, it will sure be easy to push through a .408" CH4D die and shoot in a .400-bore with .408-grooved barrel,
but of course, GSC could tweak the major diameter when making them, only change needed,
and weight would be a little less than 325 grains.
BC is nice. .478 @ 3600 fps, .445 @ 2600 fps
SF > 2.0 in 1:13" twist barrel.
Bullet length: 1.54"/39.0mm





QuickLOAD for this assumed .408-cal/325-grainer, in 24" barreled .400 Bateleur:

RL-17 98.6 grains (99% filling) ..... 2872 fps ..... 63,817 psi

H4350 98.7 grains (105% filling) ..... 2809 fps ..... 58,117 psi

Hey Ron,

I’ve been following your posts just hadn’t had a chance to throw comments your way yet.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jim,
Thanks for the interesting noodling. I read it twice and decided to just doodle on cartridge cases instead of further noodling on bullets, for now.
I will return to bullet noodling with you later.

Doodling:
My first thought of wildcatting the .338 LM was to do a .416/.338 LM, to come full circle from .416 Rigby.
Like with you, it never happened for me. For me it was because it would only equal (though in a shorter case) the recently available .416 Rigby factory ballistics. That was about 15 years ago for me, but I do have the dummy:

Cartridges, bullets, and COALs from left to right:

1. .375/404 Jeffery Saeed, 300 gr TSX, COAL of 3.755"
2. .400 Bateleur, 300-grain TSX re-sized from .411 to .408", COAL of 3.435"
3. 400 Whelen B, .411/300-gr Hornady SP, COAL 3.235"
4. .416/.338 Lapua Magnum, 370-gr NF SS, COAL 3.550"
5. .423/.338 Lapua Magnum, 320-gr GSC HV, COAL 3.550"
6. 404 RIP, 320-gr GSC HV, COAL 3.745"



Yes, it is certainly nice to work with a 3.6" box length.

FN/SC Winchester M70 .375 H&H box dimensions of late ... this is for sheetmetal box, removed from rifle, inside-box measurements, approximately:

Length: 3.628"
width at front: 0.750"
width at rear: 0.850"
depth at front: 1.465"
depth at rear: 1.655"

I very much like #s 2, 4, and 5...

quote:

IIRC, the old Pre-64 M70 Win. box is right at 3.60" long but wider than the M70 Classic from Connecticut box, which was about 3.62" long inside but a little skinnier.
I don't recall the latest South Carolina/FN box dimensions for the .375 H&H, but will try to go measure that "Alaskan" model on hand ...

Ok, you’re putting me on the spot now. I’ll have to borrow a digital caliper and pull my two rifles apart so I can measure up each magazine. And as they’re Weibe’ 4MJ Bottommetal, trapezoid shaped, I’ll have to measure both top and bottom.

Reminds me, “Did you purchase one of the Wiebe’ XRM M70 sheet metal boxes?” If so, can you measure the inside dimensions of it?

Also, very nice photographs but 2 additional photos are needed – both strictly the .338 LM based Bateleur’s…
1) Photo lineup showing the cartridges solely with hunting bullets
2) Photo lineup of same cartridges as #1 except with cartridges contained in your labeled blue box.
Very much appreciated.

Also, I finally had time to pull up your email address so you’ll have an email this evening (evening left coast time).

Jim,
I'll get to that homework assignment, love taking cartridge porno pics ... later, thanks ... sleepytime now. Even the 400 Whelen B loads hot off the chronograph will have to wait ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jim,
I'll get to that homework assignment, love taking cartridge porno pics ... later, thanks ... sleepytime now. Even the 400 Whelen B loads hot off the chronograph will have to wait ...

10-4 We all have to roost periodically...

Jim,
Rogue's gallery cartridge line-up with hunting bullets only pending, aka "Rip's Ronin."

XRM box:

http://customgunandrifle.com/i...icle&id=31&Itemid=27

Duane Wiebe's XRM box dimensions from calipers in hand:

Length inside box: 3.655" This is parallel to bore axis and bottom of action.

Width inside box, at bottom of trapezoidal box:
front = 0.825"
rear = 1.125"

Width inside box, at top of trapezoidal box:
front below bent-inward feed lip = 0.760
front at top of feed lip = 0.725"
rear below bent-inward feed lip = 0.985"
rear at top of feed lip = 0.920"

Height of outside of box from bottom where it fits floorplate to top where it fits underside of action:
front = 1.465"
rear = 1.625"

It is a complex shape. Here are the web site pictures, two boxes with cartridges they hold beside them.
First is the standard M70 box with block in back (holds 3 of the H&H case headed-cartridges) alongside the XRM that holds 4 instead of 3,
looks like .338 WinMags as props here:



Here is the same from side view, but with cartridges inside the boxes.
The cartridge on top of the XRM box has a long-nosed bullet to highlight the extra length difference:



Straight, side-on shot of the XRM box on top with an M70 standard box, the latter is blocked at back, re-inforced at front, and with feed lips bent inward for 270Win/30-06//400 Whelen use:



M70 Classic Stainless factory box with rear block and re-inforcement and feed lip fitting for 400 Whelen B (holds 4 down) on left,
alongside the XRM .375 H&H, 4-rounds-down box on the right, below:



I have many uses for this XRM box, but have not gotten around to it yet: Adds one extra round of .375 H&H to an M70 Classic, or add one extra round of 400 Whelen B (long loaded) to an M70.
Rusty McGee, Gunsmith, put together the Sunny Hill bottom metal with the standard M70, windowed, RUM box, follower and spring for my M70 12.7x68 Magnum/49-10. Requires McMillan-Sunny Hill M70 stock.
He re-inforced the front of the box.
This worked so well for three-down with 12.7x68 Magnum/49-10, that I do not want to change that box:



Future .400 Bateleur M70:

Jim,
From page 16 of the "Any fresh thoughts on the 400 Whelen?" thread, we have beaten this to death:

Here is Duane Wiebe's XRM box, on the left, compared to the original 270 WCF box that Rusty reinforced at front. The feed lips on the top of both may be bent inward or outward to adjust feeding.
You can also see that the original 270 WCF magazine spring is a flat one, with no space-wasting hump:



XRM on top below:



The 270 WCF magazine with 5 of the 400 Whelen dummies pressed down into it with follower and spring in place, the 5th cartridge sticks up too far to close the bolt over it:



The XRM box with 6 dummies pressed down into it, the bolt will close over 5, not 6 cartridges, and 3.6" COL:



Some more views of the XRM box. Duane Wiebe welds his at the right rear corner, instead of in the middle of the rear wall as with Winchester original box:



The front of the XRM box has a little round hole in it, must be used to fixture it for the cutting, bending and welding,
not supposed to be a problem, but it sure would fill in nicely with solder when Rusty reinforces the front.
I betcha he could make it work for 5 down, on the 400 Whelen B.
If we are going to get 8 down in the box it might require some different parts, from Duane Wiebe, since he has done it before.



Two of the XRM boxes side-by-side for further illustration of bends and tapers:

Cool photos Ron! Thanks.

Appears the trapezoid shape allows the bottom few rounds to lay flatter then be squeezed into more of a proper stack as rounds are feed through the chamber. Very nice.

Have you tried any 49-10s or .500 Bats in the XRM box? Just wondering if three will stack down and allow a fourth to slide up under the extractor from the magazine...

Jim,
Here is the Wiebe XRM M70 Classic box with three of our ".500/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved" (12.7x68 Magnum/49-10) wildcat cartridge dummies crammed into the box,
longest COAL seen here is 3.583" with the 430-grain CEB MTH bullet loaded in brass that is 2.657" max/2.647" min. in length,
with Wiebe magazine follower that he makes for this box,
and the regular M70 flat magazine spring:



Here is the same as above except the follower is switched to a Winchester M70 Classic magazine follower made of aluminum alloy which switches the top cartridge to the other side:



Here is the Winchester Classic M70 RUM box, follower, and spring as from the factory:



Summary:

All three photos above are with three cartridges in the box, along with spring and a follower compressed beneath the cartridges as when the rifle is loaded.

The XRM M70 Classic box will allow 3 of our 12.7x68 Magnum/49-10 cartridges down in the box and close the bolt and work the action,
but the XRM box will not allow that 4th cartridge to be partially loaded into the box for CRF.
You could pushfeed the 4th cartridge as the bolt is closed over 3 down, that's all.

The windowed RUM box will only allow two down in the box with bolt closed, but would CRF the third off the top of the box as the bolt is closed.

Using the RUM windowed box and the Sunny Hill drop floor plate gives extra space,
but that drop floor plate is designed to fit the standard Winchester sheetmetal boxes (windowed 300 RUM and non-windowed .375 H&H), not the wider bottom of the XRM.

Hey! Whatever works is what I say now.
"Screw the Mauser cosine law."
Too skinny is OK as long as it is deep enough.
Not so deep but wider is OK too, as long as it works.
Nobody has ever made a Mauser Cosine Perfect box for a .416 Rigby or .505 Gibbs that I have ever been aware of.
Must be top secret, or after a point they just start using straight-in-line stacks.
Yes, we live and we learn.

New corollary to "Viking Laws of Gunmaking" is number 4 below.

1. Everything is relative.
2. It depends.
3. Whatever works.
4. Screw the Mauser Cosine Law.
5. There are no absolutes.

Thanks Ron. Definately good info...

It will be a while before I have some 400 Bateleur load trials,
but here is the start of the 500 Bateleur load data:



The 500 Bateleur brass was trimmed to 2.690"-2.695" before loading.
After firing the brass is all still in that range of length.
Any "tiny" stretch of brass length must have been taken up by the sharpening of the shoulder and "tiny" diameter expansion of the case.
Will FL re-size the case after this first firing and see what the brass length is ... (add to to-do list)

Above velocities from 12-28-2013, 45 degrees F,
5-shot average for each load.
5-yard chronograph (Oehler 35P) velocities may be corrected to MV using BC of bullet ... (add to to-do list)
and then compared to QuickLOAD predictions of MV and pressure ... (add to to-do list)
Cartridge dummies porno photographs for Jim ... (already on to-do list) ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Hey! Whatever works is what I say now.
"Screw the Mauser cosine law."
Too skinny is OK as long as it is deep enough.
Not so deep but wider is OK too, as long as it works.
Nobody has ever made a Mauser Cosine Perfect box for a .416 Rigby or .505 Gibbs that I have ever been aware of.
Must be top secret, or after a point they just start using straight-in-line stacks.
Yes, we live and we learn.

I think we're very lucky that Mauser started with a straightline stack box and then moved to the 'Mauser Cosine Rule' staggered-box. What most forget is that the 'feed rails' are more important than the cartridge stack. A poor stack can be overcome but 'buggered rails' just about ruin the project...

Very true.
But at least with buggered rails, a functionally low-stress area of the action,
there is hope that a skillful metalsmith could rebuild with TIG welding and then reshape anew.
So no hopeless situation there.
Where there is hope there is a way.
Buggering the feed ramp with metal removal at a locking lug abuttment would be worse though,
as metal in that area has got to take a pounding, more hopeless of repair.

Assumed BC's for these .510-caliber bullets:
535-grain S&H brass FN: 0.150 (pulled out of my hat)
600-gr Barnes Original: 0.365 (from RCBS.LOAD)
647-gr Barnes X-BT-Cannelured: 0.563 (Barnes manual BC for 647-gr TSX BT,
same bullet with 3 cannelures instead of one, minor length difference, close enough)

Correction to muzzle velocity from 5-yd velocity:
535-gr/BC 0.150: add 28 fps
600-gr/BC 0.365: add 11 fps
647-gr/BC 0.563: add 7 fps

Corrected to ACTUAL muzzle velocity:
535-grainer/89.0 gr H322: 2356 fps
600-grainer/97.0 gr H4895: 2306 fps
647-grainer/95.0 gr VARGET: 2145 fps

QuickLOAD Predicted MV and pressure:
535-grainer/89.0 gr H322: 2382 fps @ 58,177 psi
600-grainer/97.0 gr H4895: 2275 fps @ 58,305 psi
647-grainer/95.0 gr VARGET: 2188 fps @ 60,213 psi

Actual MV vs. QL predicted MV, difference:
535-grainer/89.0 gr H322: 2356 - 2382 = -26 fps
600-grainer/97.0 gr H4895: 2306 fps - 2275 = +31 fps
647-grainer/95.0 gr VARGET: 2145 fps - 2188 = -43 fps

Average error of QuickLOAD prediction for these 3 loads: Plus 13 fps (12.67 fps) over actual.

Not bad for QuickLOAD, considering the biggest errors come from lot-to-lot variation of the various powders,
and assignment of a start pressure for the various bullets.
"Weighting factor for case shape" also has some, lesser effects.
I am not smart enough to try adjusting powder variables in the QuickLOAD program.
I only play with start pressure and weighting factors.
I accept the bore-area calculation by QL for a same-barreled cartridge,
like start with 500 A-Square cartridge and morph it into a 500 Bateleur cartridge.
I measure case water capacity, and bullet and case linear dimensions myself.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Average error of QuickLOAD prediction for these 3 loads: Plus 13 fps (12.67 fps) over actual.

Not bad for QuickLOAD, considering the biggest errors come from lot-to-lot variation of the various powders, and assignment of a start pressure for the various bullets.
"Weighting factor for case shape" also has some, lesser effects.
I am not smart enough to try adjusting powder variables in the QuickLOAD program.
I only play with start pressure and weighting factors.
I accept the bore-area calculation by QL for a same-barreled cartridge, like start with 500 A-Square cartridge and morph it into a 500 Bateleur cartridge.
I measure case water capacity, and bullet and case linear dimensions myself.

Pretty darn close which is a good thing...

Without having the actual pressures generated - such as Michael with his pressure equipment - it's almost impossible to tweek QL settings for powder variation matching.

Looking at your velocity variation though, I'd say your pretty close as you are.

I think Michael and I decided a couple of years ago when I was QL'ing his lab work and doing 'what ifs' was that anything within 50fps between QL and actual was taken as 'spot on' primarily due to powder 'lot to lot' variances plus the lack of 'shot to shot' pressure readings at the lab. We also determined that lacking actual pressure readings to match QL to, that QL would typically be indicate 1000+ psi higher than actual pressure readings when using the CEB bullets. Basically without the pressure equipment reading to initially match QL tweaking with, any maximum loading from QL would be safe to use as the actual pressure would be lower - occasionally substantially lower.

The bullets that typically fell into this category were the CEB banded bullets, the NF CPS and FPS, the GSC, and the S&H bullets. The Barnes TSX/TTSX and FN BND SLD not so much due to the wider banding especially at the base of the bullets. Oh yes, Rob's Crayloa (sp) bullets fell into this category (at least the couple tested).

Sorry for the long and disjointed response.

Jim,
That is reassuring. I too feel that QL is working pretty well.
It seems to be on the safe side of the redline for us yayhoos who like to work up to that red zone,
I reckon.

Ron,

Yes it works pretty well. We only have to remember that the reduced actual pressure only relates to narrow banded bullets not the heavy-wide bands such as those on Michael's original SSK/Lehigh banded bullets or the Barnes banded bullets having the really wide base bands.

Repackaging:
400 Bald Eagle, Winchester M70
500 Bateleur, FN Mauser M98

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Repackaging:
400 Bald Eagle, Winchester M70
500 Bateleur, FN Mauser M98

Now I'm starting to feel like Michael... ...with the name changes...

Jim,
I know how it is for you, the process
is like the abuse of showing baby pictures
of a grandchild to a stranger, and expecting
the abusee to be delighted.
But at least I am being consistent in my process.
400 Bald Eagle it is.
500 Bateleur it is.
Just wait until I get off this iPhone and start posting
pictures of American bald eagles swooping about.

Ron,

Can you pick up your emails?

Yep, done.
I check ar.com more often than I check email.

I like 40 Wild Turkey better

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I like 40 Wild Turkey better

So did Ben Franklin, that was his recommendation for the national bird.
But that did not fly as well as the bald eagle.
If I were naming the 400 for bourbon,
it would have to be "Buffalo Trace."
Bald Eagle it is.