quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
You could do that too.
You will have to do the trimming before or after you fire the case.
Easier to shorten before with a .375 pilot,
then finish trim after with the .410/.411 "400" pilot.

You either love this stuff or you don't.

I would enjoy it more if there was a good book on all of it, and I didn't have to worry whether I was going to blow my hands off, or worse.

Don't worry. Be happy. I would not recommend anything that I would not do myself.

Ken Howell: "designing and forming CUSTOM CARTRIDGES"

http://www.amazon.com/Designin...ndguns/dp/0964362309




Fred Zeglin: "Wildcat Cartridges"

http://www.amazon.com/Wildcat-...Zeglin/dp/B003TT5OBO

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Ken Howell: "designing and forming CUSTOM CARTRIDGES"

http://www.amazon.com/Designin...ndguns/dp/0964362309




Fred Zeglin: "Wildcat Cartridges"

http://www.amazon.com/Wildcat-...Zeglin/dp/B003TT5OBO

Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Don't worry. Be happy. I would not recommend anything that I would not do myself.

Ken Howell: "designing and forming CUSTOM CARTRIDGES"

http://www.amazon.com/Designin...ndguns/dp/0964362309




Fred Zeglin: "Wildcat Cartridges"

http://www.amazon.com/Wildcat-...Zeglin/dp/B003TT5OBO

RIP,

I do not question your knowledge - I've actually browsed some of your other posts and it is obvious that you're not stupid. The rifling vs. torque debate was a good one!

I'd probably feel a little better if I had a shooting bud that had done something like this a few times and could walk me through it the first time, but Kentucky is a long drive from AZ!

I've purchased the Fred Zeglin book (Kindle edition can download and start reading instantly), because I've heard that name associated with Z-Hat, but I have to tell ya, the small amount of reading I've done in the last hour or so on the fire forming chapter shows that Fred really wasn't paying attention in his grammar classes, and his editor should be shot - there IS a difference between their, and they're! Oh ya, and there!

I'm going to see if I can figure out the calculus for the 375 H&H vs. my existing chamber - specifically, I want to know how much room there is between the neck of the factory 375 H&H and the associated throat of my rifle barrel, to actually let go of the 375 bullet without exploding the rifle in my face.

If that doesn't look like it will work it will get a new barrel in a standard caliber.

Thank you,

Karl

According to my math, which is probably flawed, my chamber cast is .011 smaller at the shoulder than the corresponding point on the SAMMI cartridge drawing for a 375 H&H Magnum, .0058 smaller at the 375 H&H shoulder, and .040 larger at the 375 H&H magnum neck.

I do not know if is possible, or safe, to force the 375 in, and fire it.

The Zeglin book was interesting based on a first, fast, skim-through - I would prefer the bullet seating into lands fire forming method.

Yep, the Fred Zeglin book is the cartoon version.
Ken Howell is better.

Note: You have a belted case to headspace on and do not need the bullet jammed into the lands to headspace the fire-forming load.

That was necessary with the beltless 400 Whelen.
You may do it too, with a .410-caliber Hornady 210-grain HP-XTP.
You will be "double headspaced" then: Not recommended.


So, much easier with the belted case.

Run a .375 H&H into a 405 WCF or maybe a 41 RM die,
deep enough to size down the .375 H&H shoulder and neck up to .410.

Trim that case down to 2.590" length.
Seat a .410-caliber handgun bullet into the case with charge and fire.
The bullet can be seated nose forward and off the lands: Headspacing on the belt.
The case will shorten. How much?

Or you could do the Cream O' Wheat & Pistol Powder loads with a wax/soap/lube plug in the neck at this point and skip the bullets altogether.



400 Whelen is same caliber as your rifle:

Old post:
******************************************************************************************************************************************

Below is a 35 Whelen necked up with a larger expander ball (custom or a 44 RM is close enough) to create a .458" shoulder and then necked down to accept a .410 bullet:



You will only need to simultaneously neck up the .375 H&H and size down the shoulder with only one pass in a make-do die, rifle or pistol for a .41-.411 bullet.
Many possibilities.

Easy to fire form a piece of 35 Whelen brass from Remington in the 400 Whelen. Let .358-caliber bullet rattle down the bore (extractor headspacing with case lubed),
or use the Hornady .410-caliber XTP pistol bullets reversed and jammed into the rifling with a necked-up case. No Cream-O-Wheat.
48 to 50 grains of IMR3031. 48.5 grains from a 3.7 cc Lee powder scoop sure is easy.
Perfect fire-forming every time with jammed bullet loads.
No extractor headspacing with jammed bullet.
Extractor headspacing may not always work in a Mauser or Ruger Hawkeye (built-in slop for function), unless cases are lubed just before loading for fire-forming.


******************************************************************************************************************************************

COWPP fire-forming does not seem to shrink the case length as much as the bullet method.
That was the case in the 400 Whelen.

You can still just fire a .338 WinMag in your rifle and see how short that ends up, just for fun.
I would do all methods discussed in this thread, or pick the latest refinement, and see which makes the prettiest brass to get reloading dies made from, by Hornady.

Then it is as easy as necking down Hornady .375 H&H basic cylindrical brass in the custom dies, trimming, and done.
30-06 basic cylindrical sized in 400 Whelen die,
grows longer when sized down,
but the tapered cases shorten when blown out in fire forming or expanded by necking up:



You can do your intial tinkering with or without annealing.
But after you get to reusing formed cases, or using old , previously fired brass, you will want to anneal after every 3 to 5 firings.
That will be the next self-taught skill if you get that far.

COW&PP (or shotgun powder) fire-forming:

Another old post:
************************************************
Here is a piece of the (defective) Quality Cartridge brass that Rusty outside-turned neck on, to get rid of external donut:



The neck wall thickness is still about 0.011".
The rest of the QC brass went back to Peter Cardona to get fixed, hopefully (yes it was fixed).



Fire-forming load Rusty is using now is 20 grains of Universal Clays, instead of 15 grains,
topped off with COW and a wax/hard lube plug:
(I quit jamming backward bullets into lands after rusty showed me this load, cheaper and just as easy.
However, without the belted-case headspacing, you depend on extractor headspacing, and need to lube the case for fire-forming.
Otherwise you might not end up with primers flush, primers protruding after firing, thus short headspace on the fire-formed case.
Again a great advantage of headspacing on the belt.)



Above, the case on the left was formed with 15 grains, and the case in the middle was formed with 20 grains.
Rusty says that the 35 Whelen RP brass forms better and grows a little longer on initial fireforming, with the 20-grain charge.
Below, the 35 Whelen RP brass is ready to fire-form.



Start with 25 grains of Universal Clays or Unique for your COW&PP loads, with wax/lube plug, for your larger cartridge.

RIP,

How do you feel about forcing a factory 375 into the chamber and firing it?

There are many ways to skin this cat.
But I do not like forcing the live cat to submit to the skinning.

I would not force a live cartridge into a chamber too small for it.

You want the fire-forming load to go in easily,
uniformly, every time.

Size the shoulder down so it chambers easily without force.

Do that in a die with case lubed.

Doing it in the rifle might damage the brass, and remotely be a chance for other mischief.

Take the expander ball/decapper out of the make-do rifle or pistol die and don't mess with the neck of your brass, just size the outside of the shoulder down enough to chamber.


Do that with an empty case, then reassemble the load.
Any normal .375 H&H load.
Fire that small .375-caliber bullet down that .411-caliber hole.
No pressure worries.

Is the distance from base of chamber (breech face) to end of parallel-sided free-bore (start of rifling leade) greater than 2.850" on the chamber cast?
To my eyeball, it looks like it is.
Looks like >/= 2.900".
If so, then your fire-formed brass will not intrude into the rifling, no way, though that would be OK too.
It should be smooth and pretty all over the outside at the end of the case neck.
It will show you where to trim it to just from eyeball.
Verify your trimming with caliper.

It is a very small stretch to go from .375 to .411.
You should not have any neck splits.
Ought to make pretty cases ready to trim down to proper length
(2.590" max, 2.580" trim-to length per your corrected chamber cast measurements)
and send off to get dies made for about $180 bucks total.

quote:

Originally posted by Quick Karl:
Here is a photo for comparison:



Corrected drawing:

Just an FYI:



Thank you

Carpooler's brass would be perfect if made a bit longer. But how much longer?
If you are loading a .410/.411 caliber bullet to fire form the case, you are limited to 2.590" length and that might shorten to 2.540" on firing, maybe more.

That could be OK.
Chamber length: 2.590"
Max brass length 2.580"
Trim-to length 2.570" (correction of previous statement)

If you fire a full length (2.85") .375 H&H with .375 bullet and shoulder sized down enough to enter the chamber freely,
you will see how much that shortens on firing.
Or do same with COWPP load and wax/lube/soap plug in case mouth. Heck I did that once into a plastic kitchen garbage can, containing a bath towel, in my garage. It shredded the towel, dented the garbage can permanently, and created an aroma of cooked COW. And the neighbors never called the cops.

OR LOAD AND FIRE CARPOOLER'S SHORT BRASS AND SEE HOW MUCH THAT SHORTENS ON FIRING.
Prime the case.
Put 25 grains of Universal Clays or Unique powder in the bottom of the upright case.
Put a one-thickness layer of wax paper or tissue paper circular cut-out over the powder in bottom of case, to keep powder in place.
Fill rest of case with COW, Cream O' Wheat.
Tamp the COW down with a wooden rod or pencil.
Press a plug of hard bullet lube, or wax into case mouth as seal for firing.
Presto. Formed case.
Then try that with a carpooler case left 2.59" long.


Expect about the same amount of shortening on carpooler's brass. When it is fired.
.375 H&H fire-formed to .375 Wby shortens about 0.030" due to blowing out the case body taper and shoulder.
I am guessing about 0.050" for your similar case body expansion plus the neck expansion in diameter.
Like 35 Whelen going to 400 Whelen.

Another reference:

John J. Donnelly's THE HANDLOADER'S MANUAL OF CARTRIDGE CONVERSIONS



http://www.amazon.com/The-Hand...rsions/dp/0883171368

Donnelly has a half page on the 404 Barnes & Johnson Express (404 B-J Express), which is shown there as 2.69" long, brass length:

"MAKE FROM: .375 H&H Mag. Anneal case neck and taper expand to .420" dia. F/L size with expander removed.
Trim to length and chamfer. F/L size again."

The above is for if you have proper reloading dies.
And Donnelly did not say what length to trim it to.
404 BJE could have a 2.70" chamber and brass could be left that long for initial fire-forming, whether COW&PP with wax/lube plug or with bullet.
COW&PP with wax/lube plug will shrink less in length, maybe.

Another way to go:
Get some carpooler brass that is 2.590" long and fire with COWPP.
What die did carpooler use to neck down his .375 H&H brass?????

Another idea, when you get dies:

Just neck down .458 WinMag to .411.
It will grow a little longer on necking down, but still probably be a little short after initial firing.
but certainly usable.

For best brass longevity, or initial wildcat forming:

Anneal before necking up and after necking down.

Finally, when you are simply forming your brass from .375 H&H basic cylindrial brass with proper dies.
New brass: Neck it down and then anneal it.
Trimming may be easier with the softer neck after annealing.
And you will start from the beginning with proper trim length.
Then shoot it 3 to 5 times before annealing again.
And hopefully it won't need much trimming after initial headache of forming.

I have no idea what dies Carpooler used, but the reason his case looks short is because my original chamber dimension were wrong.

I'm not sure wildcatting is in my blood!

Added some more to above while you were posting.

So he is not talking and you are going to make me figure out the make-do, eh?

This is indeed a sickness.
I just bought an 8# jug of Hodgdon's Benchmark rifle powder today.
Because it was there.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
So he is not talking and you are going to make me figure out the make-do, eh?

I'm not sure what you mean "he is not talking". Carpooler is a person on another forum, so I'm not sure he's reading this one?

All I know is he saw my posts etc etc and offered to provide some brass that I was supposed to COW fire form but, between not knowing what I am doing, not wanting to blow a rifle up in my face, and not having a place I can actually COW fire form without the Police showing up (The local gun club/shooting range refused to let me do it in one of their shooting bays), and sorting through the various other 'advice' offered in PM's but not in the thread (made me curious), it's just not something I am feeling very comfortable doing, especially since it is a trial and error try it again if it don't work, proposition.

I think it would be easier to buy some .404 B-J Express brass from Midway http://www.midwayusa.com/produ...-j-express-box-of-20 (special order delivery in February but, http://www.qual-cart.com/400%20cal.htm shows it in stock?) and shorten it .100", load a bullet, and shoot it?

RIP,

If you wanted to move the shoulder back on a piece of .404 B-J Express brass, without touching the neck, what die would you use?

Quick Karl,

Don't do that. Save that Quality Cartridge 404 B-J Express brass for use after you get your Hornady Custom dies.
Proper dies will set the shoulder back nicely, and give you brass with an "almost proper" headstamp for your rifle.
Your link to Quality Cartridge
http://www.qual-cart.com/400%20cal.htm
has my .395 Tatanka wildcat brass at the top of the page.
Now THAT is an Odd caliber.

Something better for you:

1. Size a Hornady .375 H&H blank basic cylindrical case (new brass) in a 450/400 NE 3" FL size die with expander ball in place.

:insert picture here:

2. Size in a .375/.338WinMag trim die. Leave it long, sticking out of top of die.

:insert picture here:

3. Neck back up to .410 in 450/400 NE 3" die.

:insert picture here:

4. Anneal neck.

:insert picture here:

5. Trim to 2.580" length, the maximum final formed brass length.

:insert picture here:

This should be very close to your final cartridge brass conformation.
You can load it first time with a COW&PP load,
or use a .410cal/210gr Hornady XTP-HP plinking load to shoot squirrels with it first time out.
Ought to make perfect brass and end up somewhere between 2.570" and 2.580" length.
Right where you want to be.
I will make some brass and take pictures when I get the chance.
See what you think.

RIP,

I really appreciate your help but, I do not have all those dies just laying around so I am forced to try to find a way to do this another way.

I don't know if Hornady or anyone else can or will make loading dies from a 338 Win Mag that winds up shorter than my chamber?

I'm starting to think I'd kinda like to whack the guy that created this caliber in the first place!

Quick Karl,

I have done the make-do-die work for you.
All you have to do is fire-form these and send off three cases to Hornady to get your custom dies made.
Give me a few seconds to post the pictures of brass below.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

1. Size a Hornady .375 H&H blank basic cylindrical case (new brass) in a 450/400 NE 3" FL size die with expander ball in place.
Hornady basic starts at 2.868" length, increases to 2.883" with this step.





2. Size in a .375/.338WinMag trim die. Leave it long, sticking out of top of die.
Length after this step is 2.907"



3. Neck back up to .410 in 450/400 NE 3" die.
Length decreases to 2.885".





4. Anneal neck.



5. Trim to 2.580" length, the maximum final formed brass length.
The biggest chore is taking off about 0.305" from the neck.
If I were doing a lot of them, I would use a cut-off wheel to whack off 0.250" then finish trimming as usual.



This should be very close to your final cartridge brass conformation.
You can load it first time with a COW&PP load,
or use a .410cal/210gr Hornady XTP-HP plinking load to shoot squirrels with it first time out.
Ought to make perfect brass and end up somewhere between 2.570" and 2.580" length.
Right where you want to be.
See what you think.

The start of shoulder on the above make-do is located about 2.055" from base, and it is only .487" diameter there.

Your chamber cast shoulder is about 2.1340" from base, but it is also about .500" diameter there,
so this make-do will be an easy fit for fire-forming to your shoulder.
Headspace on belt.
No interference in chambering of fire-forming load.
Perfect fire-form is predicted.

Neck-1 of empty brass at shoulder-neck juncture is about .432", will be a little bigger with loaded bullet,
so that should be an easy fit in your chamber.
You show .4440" there.
Chamber necks are supposed to be about .004" bigger than loaded cartridge neck.

Will load a bullet and see how it measures for clearance.
Looking about perfect.
And it might shrink only from 2.580" to 2.570" on firing.
That would be right at trim-to minimum length.
Heck this is probably already as good a fit as most factory ammo before the fire-form.

How in the...

I am completely speechless!

Can I purchase those cases from you?

Used a Hornady 405WCF case mouth belling die to ease the seating.
Then used a .416 Taylor die to seat the bullet without a crimp.
Case neck diameter with bullet seated is 0.435".
Should be good to go.
Good to fire-form and get dies made from the resulting brass.

Bullet is a Hornady .411/300gr SP with an extra cannelure added for the long seating, COL = 3.356.
I will have to find another make-do die to crimp there, but did not want to spoil the neck measurement just yet.

The 404 Express F. N. Barnes, eh?

It is like a belted 400 Whelen on steroids:



Quick Karl,

Send me a PM with your mailing address and I will mail you some "inert brass machined parts samples, 10 pieces" nothing else,
if you promise to fire-form them one way or another and report back here.
It would be a shame to rebarrel such a special rifle to a .416 Taylor or some such.

Will do!

I'm, I'm, I'm, stunned! This is like being a kid again on Christmas!

If your groove diameter is .413" instead of usual .411", you will be able to get proper bullets from North Fork, or custom order from GSC or CEB.
Either .411 or .413 bullet diameter should be fine as far as chamber and brass fit goes, probably accuracy too.
I shoot .423"-diameter bullets in a .425"-grooved 404 Jeffery with fine results.

404 ExpFNB:

With .413"-diameter bullets, the loaded cartridge neck diameter will be .437".
This may be why the chamber neck diameter is so generous,
per your casting.
No problem.
In-coming brass.

The best I can tell right now is that larger diameter of my bore is .411 and the smaller diameter is .405 (probably how the 405 Winchester got it's name)- I just re-measured with a digital caliper.

I haven't lead-slugged the bore yet but I will. Nevertheless, I am pretty sure my numbers are close.

quote:

Originally posted by Quick Karl:
The best I can tell right now is that larger diameter of my bore is .411 and the smaller diameter is .405 - I just re-measured with a digital caliper.

I haven't lead-slugged the bore yet but I will. Nevertheless, I am pretty sure my numbers are close.

Most likely right you are.
But I am not a gambler.
Safe either way.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Most likely right you are.
But I am not a gambler.
Safe either way.

I never gamble - especially with guns.

I will try to lead-slug the bore over the next few days and mic the slug.

You made my day, sir!

Karl,

If you want to sound like an oldtimer to this wildcatting hobby, you are going to have to say it like this:
"Bore is .405 and groove is .411 on this 404 Express FNB."
None of this "smaller diameter of my bore" and "larger diameter of my bore" stuff.

Bore .405 and groove .411 is most desirable for versatility IMHO.
Hornady, Barnes, Woodleigh bullets galore in .411 and .410.
You can get bullet sizing dies and size down the more common .416 bullets to .411 without too much trouble.
My gunsmith, Rusty McGee, did the leg work on that one, for the 400 Whelen, and now I am getting set up for it myself.
Just have to make a place on the reloading bench for that little one-ton arbor press from Harbor Freight tool store.
That is my next bit of Christmas decorating.
Happy Holidays!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Karl,

If you want to sound like an oldtimer to this wildcatting hobby, you are going to have to say it like this:
"Bore is .405 and groove is .411 on this 404 Express FNB."
None of this "smaller diameter of my bore" and "larger diameter of my bore" stuff.

Bore .405 and groove .411 is most desirable for versatility IMHO.
Hornady, Barnes, Woodleigh bullets galore in .411 and .410.
You can get bullet sizing dies and size down the more common .416 bullets to .411 without too much trouble.
My gunsmith, Rusty McGee, did the leg work on that one, for the 400 Whelen, and now I am getting set up for it myself.
Just have to make a place on the reloading bench for that little one-ton arbor press from Harbor Freight tool store.
That is my next bit of Christmas decorating.
Happy Holidays!

Done! I am sure it is a common mistake of FNG's to fail to stop and think about how "groove" applies to a barrel, as opposed to what you see on a bullet after it passes through a barrel.

In all of my crash course on wildcatting I just didn't stop to think about it.

that or find a 404 bj exp die set and have the bottom ground off to resize the 404 bj exp brass to your shoulders length then trim that to chamber length.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
that or find a 404 bj exp die set and have the bottom ground off to resize the 404 bj exp brass to your shoulders length then trim that to chamber length.

Lamar,

That is a great idea and fits into my "make-do dies" category.

Here is an an example of one of the several "cut-off, make-do" die sets I use for wildcats:

.375/.338 Lapua Magnum, aka .375 Tornado, aka 9.5x70mm, aka 9.5x70 Magnum, etc.:

1. Cut off the top of a .338 Lapua Magnum FL sizer die at the point in the shoulder that will allow a .375 neck to stick through.
This becomes the body&shoulder-sizing die for the 9.5x70mm.
2. Cut off the bottom of a .378 Weatherby FL sizer/decapper die to make a neck-sizer for the 9.5x70mm.
These two "cut-off, make-do dies" pictured below:



3. A generic/universal RCBS tapered neck expander die (.30 to .375) is used to neck up .338 Lapua Magnum cases to accept .375-caliber bullets for fire-forming.
4. Another .378 Weatherby die, this one the seater die, cut off at the bottom and used to seat bullets in the shorter 9.5x70mm:



Just necking up .338 LM to .375 creates a "dreaded doughnut" at the bottom of the neck, because a short segment of the thicker .338 LM shoulder has now become the bottom of the 9.5x70mm neck. A boat-tailed Sierra bullet, 250 or 300-grain, can still be seated down to the doughnut and fire-formed, but then the doughnut must be inside-neck-reamed to allow seating of any bullet after fire-forming. That is what the little reamer above is for, used in a usual piloted sort of case trimmer. Ream after first fire-forming, then size the brass and good to go.



I eventually got a proper set of "9.5x70 Mag" dies from Triebel in Germany, with the help of member 2RECON, "Michael in Germany." They are excellent quality, and 1.25" diameter instead of the 7/8" "cut-off, make-do dies" above.
I have two perfectly good sets of dies for the 9.5x70 Magnum. One is a homemade 4-die set, the other is a factory 2-die set.



How to cut off the dies at the right spot?
They are heat-treated, hardened steel.
A hacksaw will not do.
Use a RotoZip tool cut-off wheel and leave the die a little long. Then carefully grind them with a bench grinder to desired "datum line," by trial and error, always erring on the safe side.
Polish any problematic burrs or rough edges on the cuts by using a Dremel tool and polishing spuds and "jeweller's rouge."

The RotoZip tool makes a great brass trimmer too. If you want to trim off 0.300" of a brass case, first cut 0.25" of it off with the RotoZip tool and then finish with precision trimmer.
The RotoZip goes through brass like a hot knife through butter.

Karl,
Above is for more advanced wildcatters, the sicker ones.
It would probably be cheaper and easier to get custom dies made perfect for your 404 Express FNB.

For encouragement here is a picture of one of the cases, I kept one of eleven made.
This one was the one I learned on to do the other ten I sent to you:



I polished it up with #0000 Finest steel wool. And the color change of the annealing just about went away.
I did the same for your other ten cases.
Wiped down the outside of the brass with a rag and BreakFree CLP to keep them shiney.
You can wipe off any oil with a dry rag when you get them.
Tumble polish them if you want, no need to however.

When you decide how you want to fire them, COW & PP or regular, bulleted load, let me know and I will QuickLOAD a 50,000 psi load for you.
Depends on what payload you choose, COW or bullet, let me know.

Two suggested bullets for this are the Hornady .410/210-grain XTP-HP, and the Hornady .411/300-grain SP pictured above.

If you use a bullet, there will be no tell-tale aroma of cooked COW to give you away at the range.
Tracking number to your PM.

Yep, I figured that shortening-dies trick was quite far above my current sickness level. With the brass you have been so kind to prepare and send me I will be able to get custom dies made, and that seems like the most practical option for me.

How did you get bullets with 2 cannelures - something you special ordered?

I am planning on fire forming with some 405 Win bullets I have - Hornady Interlock 300g FP .411" diameter but determining a starting load was off my radar screen until today!

Well, here is some load data from Accurate Smokeless Powders Loading Guide, Number One (1994), for the .411 KDF, pressure tested.
The 404 ExpFNB is bigger than this, so pressures will be lower unless you add more powder:



I assume that the bullets used for this were the old Barnes originals, so the 300-grain loads should apply closely to the Hornady 300-grain .411 FN or SP, same bullets with different nose shapes basically.
The longer monometals of same weight would change things a little on top end, but not much regarding START LOADS.

BTW, the extra cannelure on the .411/300-gr Hornady SP pictured above was done by me with the nifty CH4D Canneluring Tool.
Even a caveman can do it.

Add a couple of grains to the START LOAD here and you have your fire-forming load.
Should be safe even if powder lot has changed in the last 19 years.
Or find some 19-year-old Accurate Arms Company, Inc. powder.
Whatever. Don't go too light. Add at least 2 grains to the START LOAD here.

Or would you like a different powder run through QuickLOAD?
What powder?

you can put a cannelure any where you want on a bullet with a cannelure tool.
I have a couple I use a lot and would really like the electric version.
I swage or cast [or both] most of my own bullets
by most I mean 99 sumthin percent of my guns [all but 3] see only bullets I make.

making brass or re-purposing die sets is just a matter of sitting down and thinking about what you really need.
I neck size my 358 Winchester brass with a 38 special die that I polished out so I can just neck size and reload the 250gr cast boolits [with a 10 grain pure lead nose to initiate expansion]
I push these to near 2400 fps through a 20" barrel.
I also had to modify a flair die to just bump the case mouth open at a gentle angle without disturbing that neck tension.
no big deal I done it with a drill and some crocus cloth.
then polished it the last little bit with crest whitening toothpaste I fortified with some jewelers rouge.

oh btw I love seeing modified die sets like the ones above, they aren't that hard to do if you are careful.

Lamar,
Drill and crocus cloth: I am taking notes.
We think alike on the toolporn. You got the sickness too, I reckon.

The wildcat sickness is a relapsing sickness, like malaria.
I feel a fever coming on for a .408/.375 Ruger.
Like a 400 Newton of yore.
I'll call it the "400 Ruger Newton Berry" or some such.
Ruger No. 1, Ruger Hawkeye, Mauser M98, or Winchester M70, which first? ... Where's the aspirin ...

Whew! Slept on it and the urge for a 40 RNB went away. Fever and chills broke after a sweat, shakes are gone now. No it wasn't DTs.
I already have a .395 Ruger Max, and a .416 Ruger.
(Rationalizing.)

Maybe the first .411/H&H Medium Magnum of 1944, and some more starting loads for the 404 ExpFNB.
Appears Mr. F. N. Barnes started supplying bullets for this one soon after it was born, for Mr. Williams, so says Mr. P. O. Ackley:



More .411 Magnums:





Some of the P. O. Ackley published load data is questionable.
Not pressure tested on that 404 Barnes Supreme, pie in the sky for sure.
And pretty mild on the others.

I hadn't known there was such a thing as a cannelure tool, but that eliminates the problem of loading 400g bullets (in the future) that lack a cannelure, which, if I am not mistaken, is an absolute necessity for this kind of "varmint" cartridge...

My current inventory of powders that might work for this?:

H4831, Varget, R19

IMR 4064, 4350, 4895 (I'm unsure about these but thought I would mention them if any would be useable just to fire form).

Bruno's isn't far so I could drive over and get whatever powder I need if none of these work. I see one of the IMR powders listed in Ackley's loads but I've always been afraid to use that data. I am kind of partial to the H4831 but not for any scientific reason other than it worked great in a 300 Win Mag I had, and I have a jug or two on a shelf.

I can see that I am going to have to get myself a copy of that QuickLOAD program pretty quick...

EDIT: Hmmmm, I just thought of something... how am I supposed to seat a bullet sans seating die for this?

Don't be difficult. H4831 is too slow to waste with 300-grain bullets in a .411. Might be OK with 400 grainers, but 4064, Varget, or 4895 would be better with either.
You want to get pressures high enough to do a good job of blowing the case out for getting dies fitted to the brass that has been well fitted to your chamber.

Can you not find some desert or dump where you can fire Cream O' Wheat into the dirt using 25 grains of Unique or Universal pistol/shotgun powder?
Hard to believe a public range won't let you do it.

Or can you borrow some .416 Taylor dies to "make do" as a bullet seater?
Maybe cut off a 44 Rem Mag or 41 Rem Mag handgun seater die for this light duty?
A 405 WCF case neck belling die is not needed with the nice bevel on the bottom corner of your flat base .411/300-gr Hornady.

I will look up some 416 Taylor loads for the IMR powders and see about finding a 416 Taylor seating die - I probably should have figured that out myself but all of this "wildcatting" is still very new to me so if some of my questions seem stupid its because, well, far as this stuff goes, I am!

OK,
I'll QuickLOAD when you decide if you can load the bullets.
After the cases are primed, COW just requires fingers for reloading tools.

Mr. RIP,

Someone on another forum made a suggestion - have you ever thought to make an instructional video, a YouTube kinda thing, on this COW fire forming process?

I've searched and viewed some YouTube vids but most are only showing a guy doing a lot of talking, then squeezing the trigger, and showing a case that has been fire formed - I haven't seen any that show the actual adding the COW to the case, placing a paper separator on the powder prior to adding the COW (if required - some say yes, some say no), compacting the COW (some say yes, some say not required), how much COW is actually used in each case (heard lots of different opinions on that one), then, how much Dacron or toilet paper is used to hold it all in there sans bullet lube - oh ya, almost forgot, starting PP and how to know if your case filled out the chamber or you have to do it all over again.

It might be an interesting project for someone that loves this hobby, and is snowed in for a while and waiting for the snow to melt!

I have a friend (that's never done this either) that is volunteering to try this in his garage - I get the feeling it's going to sound like a 45 ACP going off, and there might be holes left in his ceiling - I guess we're going to find out maybe, with carpooler's slightly short brass, as an initial experiment.

I will be standing back - he's crazier than me

I will post the results after the experiment!

No thanks on the video!
There are enough nuts doing that already, just keep looking!

PM to you with more than this:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RIP:

Another easier way is just to ball up 1/4 sheet of toilet paper into a ball and shove it down into the case over the top of the powder. You guessed it, use a pencil as a ramrod.


How much COW? By volume or weight?

After the powder and paper patch or wad are in the primed case, just pour the COW in until the case is full of COW.
Then tamp the COW down firmly with a rod of wood or steel until there is enough room to stick a plug of wax, soap, or hard bullet lube like used to fill the lube grooves on cast lead bullets.
You can use your fingers to just press in a ball of lube you have cut off the stick, or press a solid, room temperature stick of the lube down over the case neck like a cookie cutter, what ever works. Just keep the case standing upright like in a loading tray until you get it plugged with whatever plug material that will stay in place. The hard bullet lube is sticky and stays put well, and we know that is good for barrels.

I was thinking to try this with 10g of bullseye and maybe use a couple of Carpooler's short brass, so that I don't waste yours (wasn't in the mail box today).

Perfect! Here is the Bullseye recipe:
Put a primer in the case and fill the case full of Bullseye.
Pour the Bullseye out of the case onto the pan of the powder scale and weigh it.
take one tenth of that weight as the starting charge of Bullseye for fire-forming with COW.
That means if you can get 100 grains of Bullseye into the case, then use 10 grains to fireform that case with COW.
If that does not fully fire-form the case, go up 0.5 grains, e.g., to 10.5 grains next.
Bullseye is about as fast a powder as you can get and will take smaller charges to get the pressure up.

Here is my latest fire-forming, that 500 Bateleur FN Mauser:







If the neck expands and the shoulder angles look sharper than they were, you have achieved the goal.
This example is very subtle, because it is a very minimal shoulder. Yours will be much more obvious since you have a bigger shoulder step in diameter and you will be moving the shoulder outward some.

Show us a picture of one COW fire-formed Carpooler-short case before proceeding, please.
I am sure you will get plenty of critiques and advice here.