The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Wildcats And Their Development Odd caliber?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
Has anyone ever heard of a .404 EXP? I have an unmolested FN commercial barreled action that has .404 EXP marked on the barrel. Cerrosafe is on the way but I thought I would see if anyone ever heard of it? Looks like it has a .410 bore (6-groove barrel), so I'm pretty sure it isn't a Jeffrey. | ||
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One of Us |
The 404 B-J Express is the only 404 wildcat that comes to mind. The parent cartridge is the 375 H&H. | |||
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| One of Us |
It does have a belted magnum chamber so you may be right! I haven't been able to find much information on a 404 BJ Express on the internet. It will be interesting to figure out what to do with it. | |||
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| One of Us |
I’ll post a drawing and any information I have when I get home this afternoon. | |||
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| One of Us |
That would be great! In the mean time, some photos (cleaned up with a green scotch brite):    You can see where is was either marred in a vice or a bad action wrench... | |||
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| One of Us |
It was a Barnes & Johnson creation. That's all I know about it. Max. case capacity H2O is 100.83 grains according to QL.   | |||
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| One of Us |
The mag box on this rifle is 3.400" so it may be something else? | |||
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| One of Us |
I had case dimensions and all the information from the parent cartridge but no COAL when making the drawing so I picked that, COAL is a random number in this drawing. The COAL can be longer or shorter depending on your needs. | |||
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| One of Us |
I guess I have to be patient and wait for the Cerrosafe to show up!  but it would be nice if it turns out to be something I can use, and maybe even find dies for??? | |||
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| One of Us |
It's all fun! It'll be interesting to see what the chamber really is. | |||
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| One of Us |
I've always wanted something that thumps! | |||
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| One of Us |
If I understand, Swift makes a .410" 400g A-Frame bullet that would work if it turns out to be a 404 BJ EXP. I wonder where the heck to get load data for that? I wouldn't even know where to start or end. | |||
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| One of Us |
You need to make a casting of the chamber to see what it is. Don't get to far ahead of yourself on this one. It may be a jewel, but it may be a bust.  | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks Mick - Cerrosafe is on the way! | |||
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One of Us |
There are other .404s in N.A. on the .375 H&H parent case. Mine is a 404 Barnes Supreme which I have owned since 1972. It is basically identical to the later, factory introduced, .416 Remington, except it uses .411" bullets instead of .416" diameter ones. I long ago quit making my cases from .375 H&H as it is much easier just to run the .416 Rem cases into the .404 Barnes Sizing die. They come out the right length,right dimensions everywhere, and I use the same 400 gr. weight bullets I always have (Barnes originals). I I think Remington just used the already existing .404 Barnes Supreme and necked it up to .416 so they could have a proprietary .404 cartridge to claim as their own. The only bad thing I can say about it is if you don't shoot it or even bigger stuff regularly, it will kill on both ends in a light bolt action. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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| One of Us |
Well I am just going to have to be patient (not one of my virtues) and wait for the Cerrosafe to show up! Either way, I have a feeling that reloading dies are going to be a real trick! I dykem'd a 300 WIN MAG dummy round I had laying around and can see and measure where the shoulder contacts the chamber - the bolt will not close on the 300 WIN MAG. Anyway, I am as anxious as a teenager gettin' his first, well, you know | |||
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One of Us |
Out of curiosity, AC, was that a Fred Barnes or a Frank Barnes design?  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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According to the folks at Barnes Bullets, the F.N. Barnes stamped on my barrel stands for Fred Barnes, the originator of Barnes bullets! I still haven't gotten the Cerrosafe (tomorrow), but they are fairly certain it is a 404 B-J Express (a .411 bullet in a 375 H&H case shortened to fit in standard length actions, which would explain the factory 3.400 magazine box!). Now, to find some .411 diameter bullets... | |||
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| One of Us |
There are a number of bullet makers that make .411 bullets. All you have to do is find some. | |||
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| One of Us |
I couldn't help it. I had to know what it looked like. Well, at least my best guess based on information I've been able to gather so far...  Pretty neat lookin'! | |||
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| One of Us |
The results of my Cerrosafe experiment! Remember, I do NOT have an optical comparator, just a Starrett .0001 Mic, a digital caliper, and a 10X optivisor  Something tells me this chamber was never "finish reamed"??? I don't know what to make of it but at least it seems like I should be able to ream it to a .404 B-J Express though that might be a trick since the belted part is already reamed and that is where you head space it... | |||
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| one of us |
Sort of like a .416 Taylor only shorter. .416 groove and .408 bore is universal for the .416. Do you have the bore diameter there at 0.4133" or do you mean groove diameter/bullet diameter? And the other has a 0.4420" "bore"? "Odd Caliber" is right. The Miroku, Japan-made Winchester .405 WCF rifles of late have barrels with .4133" groove diameter according to Mike Brady's slug measurements, which I trust. | |||
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| One of Us |
The bore diameter is the bore (larger diameter) of my rifle (the smaller diameter looks to be about .405/.406). The other dimensions are chamber dimensions. This was the first time I ever did a chamber cast: ◾my eyes are old ◾I'm not sure how to perfectly measure the shoulder of a chamber-cast without an optical comparator ◾I don't have an optical comparator, but I wish I did! Therefore, information is subject to change. While I did get a surprisingly good cast for a first time event, I think I can do better around the base of the chamber and will do so tomorrow, maybe, and then double check all my dims as best I can and go from there. Whatever it is will be fun to own and shoot! | |||
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Surprisingly very similar to the .416 Taylor, but with a slightly smaller diameter bullet? Not too shabby... | |||
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Moderator |
please check the twist... .513 is aweful close to a 9,3x64 or a belt turned off HH case opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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16" Twist - Belted chamber | |||
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| one of us |
You need to slug the barrel with soft lead slug to get a better measure on the barrel groove, and a check on your chamber casting. Assuming the chamber casting is good, are you sure you are not measuring some throat, parallel-sided free-bore or leade? Your barrel might truly be .410 or .411 or .412 or .413, GROOVE diameter, all common:
Yep, I would see if I could load a.338 WinMag cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt. If I could, then I would simply fire form those to your wildcat. Use a full power load and let the bullet rattle down the barrel. If the shoulder allows entry of the case, it will headspace on the belt, and the case overall length will shorten as the neck and shoulder blow out to fit your chamber. I routinely fire-form .338 Lapua Magnum to .500/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved, and have had one minor case neck split in 200 with Lapua-made brass. More with cheaper brass. Metallurgical flaws are possible even with best brass. If you have any case neck splits with new .338 WinMag brass, I would be surprised. Annealing case neck before fire-forming would help, especially if using old, previously fired brass. The case length of this wildcat might possibly be based on the result of fire-forming .338 WinMag in the .404 Exp.F.N.Barnes. Just a guess. After fire-forming: Trim to square and uniform the case mouth, and establish maximum brass length of fire-formed brass. If any of the brass extends into the throat, remove that in trimming. Shorten the brass to 0.010" short of the start of chamber case mouth chamfer. That is the end of the chamber and the start of the throat. Max brass length should be 0.010" to 0.015" short of minimum chamber length. You might use make-do dies from whatever pistol or rifle dies that are helpful with neck area. The opening in the bottom of some handgun or small rifle die might be right for partial neck sizing, and you can use a neck expander ball of proper diameter in a larger rifle die or universal decapper, or neck expanding die. That is why self-taught wildcatters have so many reloading dies lying around at home, for guns/cartridges they do not even own, and the gross that they do. If you have the proper neck sizing dies, .338 >>> .375 then .375 >>> .410 (two steps): Neck up the .338 WinMag brass to .410-caliber and trim to establish experimental length based on chamber casting. Load some 200-grain .41-caliber handgun bullets to normal estimated pressure and fire-form. Establish final trim-to length. Send three pieces of your best-finished, fire-formed brass to Hornady Custom Dies with any supplementary info and dimensions you have or they want. That is if you can't find the .404 Express (ala Fred N. Barnes) die set on a shelf somewhere. Best to pick one brass make and stick with it. I would vote Winchester or Hornady brand, and hope those might be interchangeable in the final neck dimensions, neck wall thickness and OD with loaded bullet. You can work out a Cream O' Wheat & Pistol Powder (COWPP) load for bulk fire-forming, or to start with if you don't like smaller caliber bullets rattling down your bore. COWPP: Cow Pee Pee, I just thought of that.  Fire-forming loads using the .41 RM pistol bullets also can be nice. Plink while you make brass.  .338 Winchester Magnum from Wikipedia, good fire-forming candidate:  | |||
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One of Us |
Appears likely .338 WinMag brass was used. They may have just used expander buttons to upsize the neck diameter to accept 405 Winchester diameter bullets. New brass is always slightly shorter than the case length specification. Expand the neck diameter to accept a .411 bullet diameter and the overall case length is going to shorten even more. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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| one of us |
Jim, Thanks for summarizing my ramblings. Very Hemingway of you. | |||
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| One of Us |
So if I want brass that is the proper length for my chamber, would it be better to start with some 375 H&H brass, shorten it, neck it up, and fire form it? | |||
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| one of us |
That will work too. But you will have to experiment with how short to trim it before you neck it up. You will be blowing out the greater case body taper of the .375 H&H, and that will lead to greater shortening on firing. Wikipedia cartridge drawing for the .375 H&H:  2.5" is very near Neck-1, shoulder-neck juncture. I would start by cutting it down to that line, neck up, see how long it is, see if it will chamber with a .410cal/200-grain handgun bullet loaded, and tweak it until you can fire one and see what length that case ends up with. This process might involve finding a "dreaded doughnut" inside the case neck requiring inside-neck reaming. Outside-neck turning is another issue that might come up, involving brass and reloading die fitting to your chamber. That would be about concentricity and neck tension issues. You might get lucky and have no neck reaming or turning issues. Always a good thing. If you had proper reloading dies, definitely the way to go would be to simply: 1. Get basic cylindrical .375 H&H brass that Hornady sells, has only an "H" on the headstamp. 2. Cut the basic brass down to 2.5" then 3. Neck it down in FL sizer die, and 4. Trim to proper length. 5. Anneal necks before loading and shooting.  If it were me undertaking this bit of fun, I would make a few pieces of brass using .338 Winchester Magnum brass. Then get reloading dies made. Then use .375 H&H basic cylindrical brass to make the regular ammo supply. | |||
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| One of Us |
That is my plan! | |||
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| One of Us |
Well, after a crash course in obscure wildcat cartridges and all that goes into making brass, finding bullets, and having dies made, I believe it makes more sense to just send it to Douglas and have it re-barrel it in 416 Taylor, which seems to be about the most nastiness one can squeeze into a 98-action without disfiguring it! | |||
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| One of Us |
I screwed up and measured my chamber cast incorrectly. Here is the corrected drawing:  A little bit closer to the notorious .404 B-J Express... | |||
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| One of Us |
Here is a photo for comparison:  | |||
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| one of us |
So you need to leave the .375 H&H brass a bit longer to fire form it. It is going to shorten on fire forming. I don't know by how much. .338 WinMag brass is going to be too short for use in fireforming. You might simply fire a full-power loaded .375 H&H cartridge in the wildcat chamber, but you will have to size the .375 H&H shoulder down enough to fit in the neck area of the wildcat chamber. The .375 bullet will rattle down the bore, no harm. The case will expand enough to do another chamber casting in brass. Then just trim it down to the proper length. Maximum brass length should be 0.010" to 0.015" shorter than chamber length to the start of chamber neck chamfer. The chamfer is the 45-degree angle leading into the parallel-sided free-bore you seem to have sufficient amount of. You will probably have a "dreaded doughnut" in the neck area of the fireformed wildcat brass, due to converting thick shoulder brass into neck brass, don't know that until you try. It is an easy thing to inside ream the necks to eliminate the "DD" if there. You could try 2.580" max brass length, trim to 2.570" minimum brass length, if you have not already sent the rifle out to be rebarreled to .416 Taylor or .416 Ruger.  Eventually you will find how long to trim the .375 H&H brass to make a nice case with COW & PP loads or use .410 caliber pistol bullets to plink with while fire-forming. | |||
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| One of Us |
RIP, I haven't sent the rifle anywhere yet, and I am glad I didn't. A gentleman on another forum named carpooler made the brass in the photo for me. When his brass arrived I laid it next to my chamber cast and immediately saw the results of my incorrect chamber cast measurements. I am wondering about firing a 375 in my chamber to make brass - if I try this, how will I know if I have created a doughnut or not? If it is safe to do it might be the best way for me, a novice wildcatter, to get some brass for this rifle. | |||
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| One of Us |
I almost thought you meant I should fire FACTORY 375 ammunition in my rifle??? I guess I am glad I didn't try that before reading your instructions to shorten and load my own 375 load, which I am not set up to do in terms of dies and all that. Something is telling me this is way more trouble than it is worth. | |||
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| one of us |
Hey!, I was still typing when you quoted me!  You could do that too. Size the shoulder of the .375 H&H cartridge down enough to fit inside the neck of the wildcat chamber, then just pull the trigger. You will have to do the trimming before or after you fire the case. Easier to shorten before with a .375 pilot, then finish trim after with the .41/.410/.411 "400" pilot. Just refining the technique. You either love this stuff or you don't. | |||
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