The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Wildcats And Their Development Why did the 6.5/06 never make it?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I look around at the absolutely flooded 6.5 field right now, and can't help but wonder why the 6.5-06 was never successfully commercialized. Seems like such a natural in between the .25-06 and the .270, but with such a great variety of .264 bullets. I see several articles on it in the Handloader/Rifle Third edition Master Index, but tossed most of my back issues during a move a few years ago. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | ||
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I don't understand that as well Bill. Seems like a no-brainer...  | |||
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I don't know. Who can know? But I will guess. If you already had a 30-06 (a lot of people do)and you could get good bullets to match the weight of what you would shoot in a 6.5-06 why would you buy a 6.5-06? And especially where there were already good rounds like the 6.5 x 55 already available if you just had to have a 6.5. | |||
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6.5 brenneke is fairly popular "over there" opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I guess the way I look at it is, if one already has a 30-06, and a 6.5-06 would therefore not be needed, then we could say the same for the 25-06, 270 Win., 280 Rem., 338-06, 35 Whelen, etc. But they DID make these other calibers, and no one is doubting their existence. I own all of these calibers and enjoy hunting them. And if the 6.5x55 was already available (I own that one too), does that mean we did not need any other 6.5s, like the 6.5x300 Weatherby, 6.5 Creedmore, 260 Rem., 264WM, 26 Nosler, 6.5 PRC, etc.? It still seems to me that the 6.5-06 is a no brainer, and should have come out WAY before the rest of the above, except for the 6.5x55. It is almost the only caliber not legitimized on the 30-06 case between .257 and .358 bore. Strange. | |||
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I think probably due to lack of bullets (.264) and any significant difference from the existing .270 Win. | |||
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The .264 is indeed very close to the .277, only what, .013 difference. So that could explain the non-appearance of the 6.5-06. But if that is so, how about the 280 Rem. at .284? It is only .007 from the 270 Win. and it made it to a factory offering. So, I don't feel that the .013 difference really matters. If anything, the .264 is too close to the .257 of the 25-06, another round that made it to 'factory', only separated by another .007. It doesn't seem to matter to us gun nuts! Witness the popularity of the 6.5 Creedmore. America has embraced the .264 caliber. So, why not a 6.5 based on America's favorite case...the 30-06? It makes no sense to me. | |||
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When the 6.5-06 came into being the 6.5 bullet craze was not what it is today. The 6.5-06 was too early or too late to the party, take your pick. IIRC, A-Square submitted it SAAMI and it was approved, but that's as far as it went. Don't think it was ever chambered in any factory rifle. | |||
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True. When it was designed American's were a bit leery of metrics, in 6.5 at least, not like today. I think that was in large part the demise of the 264 WM (*not to mention the acceptance of the 7MM RM) Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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The 270 Win made the majors not need a 6.5/06. Remington used the .284 when they got around to a comparable cartridge alternative to the 270 Win bc the success of 7mm Rem Mag had in killing the 264 Winchester. Also, the simply fact the 280 sounded larger than it was and the 6.5 or 264 cartridge would have been observed by buyers if the time as small compared to the 270 Win. I have no source material for any of that. My feel of the history I have read. As of today, Yeah, add another 6.5. The 6.5/06 would be what folks think the 6.5 Creedmore is except it would not fit in an AR 10 like the 6.5 Creedmore. | |||
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My thought on why the 6.5-06 never made it ( I have one in RCBS improved and love it ) is the American dislike of all things Metric. With all the 6.5 cartridges for the AR platform, a 6.8 ( .270 ) was made......just my opinion.......I loved my old 25-06 M17, but could only go up to 120 gr bullets, with the 6.5 I can go up to 160's. Anything above that weight I go to my 8-06...easy  Roger | |||
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Yuma, the 8mm-06 is a hell of a good cartridge. The weird thing about the 6.5 vs. the .270 is that I have never heard of anyone shooting any .277 cartridge in any serious target competitions. I could be wrong. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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It is funny, but the actual 6.5-06 type cartridge in Europe is only really popular in the rimmed form. And even then the 6.5x65R is not as popular as the 6.5x57R. 6.5X55, 6.5X57, and even the 6.5x68 are popular in Europe. The 6.5x65R and 6.5x57R are also very popular in guns that used rimmed calibers. I know the 6.5x65 is exist in bolt guns, but it as far as I saw in Germany it isn't popular at all. I never saw one, and I got very excited about every strange little nuance of German gunmaking caliber differentiation. There are currently 6 items on www.egun.de in 6.5x65 and all of them are in the rimmed form. There are 56 items in 6.5x57. There are 95 6.5x55 items. And finally there are 11 6.5x68 items, and strangely enough one of them is actually a 6.5x68R in a Blaser K77. RWS does still make ammunition for the 6.5x65 though. | |||
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Seth, I had to look up that 6.5X68 round -- developed in Suhl in the late 1930s by the same smith who designed the 8X68, it seems. Barrel a rifle in 6.5X68 with a 1:8 twist and it ought to perform with the best of the current lot. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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I think using the 9,3x62 brass to make a longer version of the 6.5 CM would be interesting. Use all the same dimensions as the 6.5CM but a longer case body utilizing the fatter 62 case to make it longer and keep it to 2.4” case length to utilize the longer 6.5 bullets. 6.5 More Creed 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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The 6.5x68 is 264 Winchester level 6.5. I think a 6.5x62 (based on the 9.3x62) would be a hell of a round, not sure if there is a 6.5-06 wildcat with the shoulder moved that far forward. A 6.5-280 Ackley would also kick a lot of ass, albeit more ass. | |||
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There is the 6,5 Messner which I think is a 9,3x64 necked down. Love to have a 6;5x65R to my Blaser K95. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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Jens, that Messner sounds like a hell of a wildcat. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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The 6,5x63 Messner is a factory cartridge. http://calibres-messner.com/index6,5x6311us.html This is from the 9.3x64 Wikipedia page. 6.5×63mm Messner Magnum maximum C.I.P. cartridge dimensions. All sizes in millimetres (mm). Americans would define the shoulder angle at alpha/2 = 29 degrees. The common rifling twist rate for this cartridge is 200 mm (1 in 7.87 in), 6 grooves, Ø lands = 6.45 mm, Ø grooves = 6.70 mm, land width = 3.50 mm and the primer type is large rifle magnum. According to the official C.I.P. guidelines the 6.5×63mm Messner Magnum case can handle up to 440 MPa (64,000 psi) piezo pressure. The idea behind the 6.5×63mm Messner Magnum was to develop a very powerful 6.5 mm long range hunting cartridge that achieves very high muzzle velocities out of relatively short 600 mm (23.6 in) long rifle barrels. The developer, Joseph Messner from France, chose the 9.3×64mm Brenneke as parent case, since it offers enough case capacity and a competent gunsmith can relatively easy rechamber a standard Mauser 98 or any other bolt-action rifle to accept 9.3×64mm Brenneke based cartridges. Beside the 6.5×63mm Messner Magnum rimless rifle cartridge, Messner also designed a rimmed version for break action rifles of the cartridge called the 6.5×63mmR Messner Magnum. Due to the large case capacity in relation to the 6.5 mm (.264 inch) calibre bore size the 6.5×63mm Messner Magnum is very harsh on barrels. It typically wears out a rifle barrel in 500 to 1000 rounds. A lot of thorough barrel cleaning (after every 5 shots) and carefully avoiding long strings of shots help to minimize barrel wear. This makes this cartridge impractical for most competition shooters who tend to fire a lot of rounds in practice to acquire and maintain expert long-range marksmanship. The German 6.5×68mm cartridge introduced in 1939 and the American .264 Winchester Magnum cartridge introduced in 1959 are probably the closest ballistic twins of the 6.5×63mm Messner Magnum and both are more widely available to purchase at retail. I would note that: Several German and Austrian gunmakers will do a 6.5x63 Messner. The ones that I am most familar with are Roessler, Voere and Keltika (which is really just a Voere LBW with a different stock and bolt). Heym would probably do it on a limited basis? Most importantly all of them do a 6.5x65 RWS (30-06 based 6.5). | |||
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BWW, Thanks for all the info! | |||
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I am hoping that it might have a chance again. With all the new 6.5s, there may become some interest. I have dies, reamer [6.5-06] and a profiled 6.5 barrel for a Savage. Just made a short 6.5x280 AI in a 98 Yugo. Case is 2.450". Get Close and Wack'em Hard | |||
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Assuming a 3.34” magazine, this cart has great potential with the longer 6.5 Creedmoor bullets.
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Because the 6.5/284 did. | |||
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So the Messner gives a 140-grain Sierra 2965 fps. The note says it is very hard on barrels, but I'll bet a load worked up with something like Re17, would help; this powder includes a Bofors additive that causes peak burn heat to occur further into the barrel from the throat than more traditional powders. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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| Moderator |
https://www.cartridgecollector.net/65-x-64-brenneke opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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6,5-06 are one of Swedens most popular wildcats still not many rifles seen in it. Other ones are 6,5*55Ackley, 22K Hornet, 8mm*55 rebored mauser. | |||
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6.5x06 was born before the interweb and there is no black gun connection. | |||
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I have built a few of these, and all their owners were very happy with them. Several have been taken all over the place hunting. I actually might have one around here. I will try to find it and may be try some of our new bullets in it. I am actually running the machine making several weights of 0.264 calibers bullets. I am out of these so trying to have some on hand. Will post my results. | |||
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I'll be very interested in following this development Saeed! | |||
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The 270 is just a natural. Actually when case capacity is equal both Americans and Australians show a very strong preference for 270 over 7mm. Consider: 270 Vs 280 270 WSM Vs 7mm WSM 270 Wby Vs 7mm Wby I think a big plus with 270 over 6.5mm is 150 grain bullets are seen as a "normal" bullet weight. How often do you see a post on a 270 "whatever" asking about 130 grain Vs 150 grain bullets et. 150 is seen as very heavy 6.5 bullet. I think the 150 grain weight is important as it is seen as a 30 calibre weight etc. I have had quite a bit to do with the Weatherby Custom shop. I remember talking to them several years ago about popularity of the different Wby calibres and in particular the 257. he fellow running the custom shop said that often the 270 Wby sells better than the 257 and because a lot of shooters see the 270 as better all round when Elk is put in the mix and again the 150 grain bullet. He said because the Mark V was expensive even in the lower price versions like the Synthetic a lot of shooter getting a Mark V wanted a calibre that could do the lot. As you know Wby brought out the 6.5/300. I would bet if later they bring out a 270/300 it would catch up and outsell the 6.5/300. | |||
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To much American competition, and its a duplication of the 270, 280 and 7x57 and a few others..It has a small following especially on these blogs, but we seldom agree with the buying public..I tried it and it certainly didn't impress me that much. A nice caliber, but nice caliber are a dime a dozen..Much the same can be said for all the 35 calibers, as good as they are they never set the world on fire.At least thats my take on the subject. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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6.5 Gibbs maybe. - dan "Intellectual truth is eternally one: moral or sentimental truth is a geographic and chronological accident that varies with the individual" R.F. Burton | |||
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Good reading here. https://www.ballisticstudies.c...wton+and+6.5-06.html There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Dan, the 6.5 Gibbs is another good one. I love my 30 Gibbs + its performance. There are so many wildcats to play with + frankly when the smoke clears (sorry) there is usually not a whole lot of difference to any substantial degree but I personally find it a lot of fun to experiment + tweak what I can in performance. After all, we have to spend our money on something, right? Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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With all the anti belted stuff today (I don't know how we ever reloaded for them  ) I find it surprising there are not lots of Gibbs calibres on gun forums. I think the case capacity would probably be about midway between the 30/06 and 300 WSM. The Gibbs is a good case capacity for 25, 6.5 and 270 bore sizes. | |||
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About 20 years ago a buddy of mine took his 30 Gibbs bear hunting on Kodiac Island. He said that when that bear stood up all his thoughts on paper about ballistic performances went out the window. It did perform of course but he said he had never had an animal emanate such fear. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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| Administrator |
I was on my first African safari. I had a Remington Safari 375 H&H Magnum. A very big bull elephant was a few yards away behind a bush. I was told to aim at a certain point close to his ear hole. I moved to the side, to be able to see the elephants head. I had worked it out in my mind, that I will reload and shoot as fast as I can. BANG! The elephant dropped like a sack of potatoes! Stone dead, with one shot! All my plans went out of the window!  | |||
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Wait, Saeed, you were hunting dangerous game with a rifle without controlled round feed? How is this possible?  There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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I'm sure the 6.5-06 is a fine round and have no idea why it wasn't standardized except everyone developing 6.5's nowadays seems to want to use their proprietary case. I've used and killed with the 6.5 x 280AI for over 2 years and it is a real producer for me whether close or far. I've only loaded the 140 elite hunter Bergers and the 124 Hammer Hunters so far. Kind of totally different bullet constructions but effectively the same results on game. DRT It's my favorite medium big game round right now. Zeke | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Wildcats And Their Development Why did the 6.5/06 never make it?
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