Some mention only needed 577NE power from bolt gun.
Ended up a short 585 2.7 inch case from Gibbs brass,
that headspaces on the mouth and extractor, like
the 50 B&M Mag posted on here and the 50 Ram and
many others that have not been publicized. This may
be the first of this design in 577/585.
Put 585 barrel on my Ruger77, chambered it. fired it,
650gr 2300, 750gr 2100. Pressures 50,000 psi, ball powder.
One case fired 25 times, still good, extracts easy,sizes easy
good firing pin dent. I made chamber exactly 2.7",
after experimenting with different lengths.
Cases .005" longer, snug fit. Overall max cartridge length
3.3" loaded. most are 3.2", cast slugs 3.15' or shorter.

It works in any gun with good extractor and tight chamber.
Without having to be a PH size action.
Case holds 135 gr ball powder to base of 650 gr Woodleigh.
This gets the 577 power in any bolt gun that isn't needed of
a real long long design like Enfield,CZ,big Ruger,and PH.
It will do in shorter than Enfield, LIKE- Mausers, WIN70,
some leverguns,etc, mil surplus, and a dozen other guns.
Couple guys are going to do it in a MN.

I will get exact reamer done soon for guys to use,
and can get cases to set up. No run of brass
has to be made. This isn't neccessarily to replace
my 585HE long case, just to supplement it and get guys
extra guns shooting from stuff they already have or can
geteasy now,and a supply of cases to get used up.
No run of brass has to be made at a mfg.Ed

a great companion to the 550 express .. which does have headstamped brass

Sounds pretty serious to me hubel! After having fired 1000s of 50 B&Ms I know damn well it will work with zero issues set up like you say, with the extractor on a 77!

Sounds like a "Whole lot of a good thing"!

JD sent me a couple of wicked looking samples of some .585s the other day!

Michael

Ed,
Neal and I had simular results with the 550 express. I had wanted it to be 2.5 inchs, same as the winmag .. turned out the bullet cannelure set our brass length, as the design was .800 for one bullet, and .700 for another.

the formula is pretty basic, once discovered.
target oal = case length + bullet outside of the brass

and aiming at 3.34/3.35 it turned out to be
2.65 -550 express
2.65 500 AR
2.55 for 470, 458, and 416 ar

if the 550 express is any indication, based off case and SD, 2150+750 is probably doable, though at about 60,000 PSI ...

Ed: Any chance of some photos?

Jeffe-Bill --Pictures in couple days.....
I redid Ruger to 2.7" case. 750gr got 2200 with
130gr of W748 ball powder. 50k pressures by
my formula.Someone check what QL shows.. H20 capacity
is 165 plus gr. 28" bbl. And in every 4 reloads, have to
size bottom half the case. Rest of the time just
the top half.The supply of basic cases I use
should get a quite a few into 577/585 land.
In regular length guns.Ed

Ed, I am only going to reply to one of these threads, if that's okay with you .. I'll talk in the bigbore section .. be careful with pressure/thrust and reading the cases on these super tough cases.. the lab results showed nearly 10K more than expected

Here is pic of short 2.7" 585 case.
Called the Short HE for now.On left is 458
for comparison, on right my long 585HE.

Some may want to go to 3" with concept, but
headspacing for reliable ignition, easy extraction,
etc, won't work as good as shorter 2.7".
And at 2.7" it is the equivalent of hot loaded
577NE that doubles can do...Ed

Got 25 shots on one case, with lighter loads--
650gr at 2200 and 750 at 2050, still works ok.
Just think of it, better than 460 WEA
energy possible in a 2.7" 585 and shorter actions..
Gonna test them in some simple inexpensive actions
like Savage, Mauser, older Rugers, etc.
A Name -- 585 Short Hubel Express ???Ed

585 S&M...Short and Mean...for those who like pain on both ends. Hahahahahahahah

Ed... why not put a belt on it?

I tried belt on some to make a longer 585 cartridge
and sides are too straight for me, dented bad in swaging and
with that case inside corners aren't strong as I like
after the belt step was put on.. And since for years I had belted
bigger diameter case, that is my 585HE, and a long case, good taper,so
went back to it. So I talk up my 585 for max power in longer actions.
People were asking about short cases and lesser power than
the max like mine,at 577 levels. So reading the the thread
about the B&M series of cases and others telling me
of the Ram and other lesser known cases up to 50cal, and
headspaced on the mouth and extractor gave me the idea
to do a larger caliber version. And just use cases cut
off and sized.No work needed on belts. And a ready
supply of cases to make these.(No brass run to manufacture)
I have two belted cases to get going now, one I'm going to
get a run of brass made, my 585HE And no time/money get
other runs of brass made. I can make cases for my 700HE ok.
Check out the B&M thread here.Cases that are short
relative to diameter can work good like this in actions
with good extractors, and tight chambers.ED

Settled on a name and listed in Ammoguide - 585 Short HE.
First one is in the Ruger 77 set up with this cartridge.
A guy liked it so much he bought it and a big bunch cases.
Made himself a resize die. Going deer hunting with it.
As soon as barrels get rounded up by various
guys, there will be, down the line, a bunch more, on some
different actions.Ed

Two guns now in 585 Short HE, off to the hunt.
Deer,hog,bear guys are getting intersted soon
about 5 more om Mauser, Savage,Win, etc as guys
get barrels.Ed

Hi Ed

Michael here, the B&M guy!

Glad this is working out for you, looks interesting! Sounds like to me you got it pretty well figured out! I don't see you ever having an issue as long as that extractor working with you! The only issue I ever had was got to make sure the
brass is trimmed proper, gets a little long makes it hard to chamber, but that is as it should be and not a problem.

Congratulations on the success!

Michael

Thankyou- In the one case I fired 25
times just trimmed about .005" off twice.
The ball powders are easier on case
stretching than stick powders.Ed

Any trouble with bullet creep? I suppose the answer to that, if it occurs, is to tailor powder choice for 110% load density?

I'm getting a bit punchdrunk from my .600OK and am snooping around for something PDbig but not so vicious.

The loads I use are full so bullet can't
move, and full loads of double base ball
works great.Like W-780, and for faster loads
W-760 and H414 and W748. So does double base stick like
RE25, RE22,RE19, VV560,VV550. Even though short case
it will get great power, like 7700 ft lbs,
750gr at 2150 plus.Ed

Reamers here in a while. Have
a huge supply cases. Not ones
experimented and developed with.

It will also be called
the 585 HSE, 585 Hubel Short Express.Ed

Ed... what abous a 2.4" Short action version?
650's @ 2,000?
750's @ 1,900?

THAT would be a good thumper and the Woodleigh softs would expand being so soft.

Duplicate the 577 BPE ballistics

For right now all the guys doing it here have
regular actions that all handle the 2.7" case
ok. By short regular I mean Enfields, Rugers and CZs
that hasn't been made extra long like I do, and
WIN, Mausers, Savages,Arisaka, Stevens, Mossberg,
etc. All of these are 100 to 300 buck actions or
complete guns already owned. Just get barrel.

And for a 2.4" version to get close to those velocities
you have to raise pressures too high. Base thickness plus
.50-.60" seating length uses up about .75"-.85" of case
so a 2.4" case only has 1.55-1.65" of powder space,
and just adding the little .30" as long as the
actions handle it ok, to get a 2.7" case gives
almost 2" powder space.About a fifth more
powder space makes getting velocity so much
easier at moderate peak pressures. Same
thing that was needed to get 50 cal power wanted
by going up from the 50 B&M to the 50 BDM/ 500 BDM.

And just add 585 barrel. And most won't go buy
super short guns of the new junk short magnums
for big bucks to do this. There are guys
here that wouldn't buy the short junk over the years
because of what that crooked gun writer did after
I told them about the crook.

I made them all lengths,tried in variety of
actions, and 2.7" loaded worked best in all.
I chambered the first one the Ruger in
3 lengths, a 2.4", a 2.5", a 2.6", before
getting th results in the 2.7", that I wanted
for the desired velocity wanted. At pressure
needed for case longevity.
So for now with the guns involved I give the
guys with actions mentioned, and cases wanted by them,
first of the case supply for them and we'll use
up the pickup load of cases on the 2.7" version.
Getting headstamps done now. Can set up
hundred guys with cases and thousand
collectors with a case.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
I redid Ruger to 2.7" case. 750gr got 2200 with 130gr of W748 ball powder. 50k pressures by my formula. Someone check what QL shows. H20 capacity is 155-160 gr.28" bbl. And in every 4 reloads, have to size bottom half the case. Rest of the time just the top half. The supply of basic cases I use should get a quite a few into 577/585 land. In regular length guns. Ed

Ed,

QL indicates an H2O overflow capacity of 169.39 grains and a usable capacity of 125.276 grains using a 750gr Woodleigh SN Weldcore bullet seated to 3.300” overall loaded cartridge length.

It will hold 135gr of heavier ball powders
compressed with 650 Woodleighs I have here.
I remeasured H2O capacity, and it is 165
plus grains.Ed

We got big bunch headstamped cases, over 9000, for the
585 SHE/HSE and it will also be called the 585 H.
We are stamping them now.Pics of headstamp soon.
Next case project, soon get more than that number of my
585 HEs done.Ed

Ed,
Does the reamer cut a square stop infront of the case mouth to get a definite stop for headspacing, or is it all held back by the extractor? How does a gunsmith set headspace or is it a definite and exact depth that the reamer is inserted to?

A standard length Ruger action is a suitable conversion candidate you say? What of the magazine box for feed? 2+1 or 1+1 in I presume an in-line feed? Intriguing!
Cheers...
Con

Con- The chamber has a square cut at the front.
And then regular rifle type freebore section.
I did first two with lathe tool, I'm getting
reamer done now. Any gun,Ruger,etc with a 3.3"
magazine will work for length, and single or
staggered feed.

Most guns with little shorter boxes
the magazine can be lenthened to 3.3",
but most loads can be 3.2" with 650gr.

I figure 2 plus 1 in single type stack
feed. From measuring mag boxes.

The fellows or their smiths with the
first two are doing the mags and feeding.

I'll supply reamer and the cases
and load data.Ed

Here is pic of heads of 585 SHE.
Also known as 585 HSE and 585 H,
the latter being the headstamp.Ed

If this would work in a Savage I may need a barrel

A Savage will do fine.They are very
strong action.I'll have reamers soon.Ed

Ed,

I’m a Mauser guy and would love to see a photograph of a M98 Mauser bolt face after it has been cut to accommodate the 585 SHE rim diameter when one is available.

Will get a picture as soon as one is done. It
would look same as if done for 505 gibbs.ED

I got a gun coming later of the same style for trying
my 585 Short HE in an autoloader like the one in
picture we are setting up for my 585 HE long case.
It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autoloader that I've reworked
the stroke and got a barrel extension coming to add 585
barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad.
A 585HE long case is in the port in picture.
We already tested some smoothbore slugs in original
barrel. Barrel changes take only minutes.Ed

Oh, and we have cases, with headstamps.
Many of them...Ed

We got dies now for the 585 Short HE also.
My 585HE long case dies work fine with slight work.
I have sets here. I use the sizer die with
just 1/8" off the bottom and the seater die
with 1/2" off the bottom. The mouth belling
die works as it is. I make die changes here.
I have a reamer grinding wheel that puts
the radius on the die bottoms so they
have no sharp edges, so they don't tear brass.
I just got first set changed to 585 SHE.
That is nice as most of my wildcats have
dies and reamers.Ed

Moved out the first die set for 585 Short HE,
We got 700 cases done, and huge supply
to do more. Got CH going to make a new bigger run
of dies for my 585s.ED

Here is a picture of my 585 Short HE in a
98 mauser bolt face for a Mauser version
being setting up. There was enough edge
metal to hold opposite side of the rim,
opposite the extractor. In pic side of bolt at the top of
picture shown, is the left side of bolt and you can see the
edge of metal to hold case. On bottom you see
extractor holding other side. Also others working
on doing on Enfields, Savages, Rugers, Winnies.
Guys are talking about putting them
in all kinds of little actions. Ed

Thanks for the picture Ed.

Yes I got two guys out west working on
doing them in Mausers and one here.
This one here is a turned down bolt model 98
in real nice shape. Ed

Two more being done in enfields.
And 675 cases out already.
And soon more than that..ED

In the same idea of gun specific cases,
using inexpensive Savage bolt 12ga actions,
a new idea. The Savage box magazine in plastic
stock will take case 3.1" long case, just have
to do action bottom to match.........
And guys are crazy over 700s, lots of bmg brass
around, 700 jkt slugs at Copperhead Custom, good price.....
SO in the tradition of gun specific cartridges
like my 585 Short HE at 2.7"(and B&M cases) headspacing
on the mouth and extractor there is now a 2.7"
700 Short HE, with loaded length of 3.1" just for
guys putting 700 barrels on Savage 210s,
like the ones we did for 700NE and my 700H 3.25".
Cut BMG case at 2.7", nice thick mouth,
expand it real easy and use 700 cal slugs.
Case holds 205 gr water and 160 gr ball
powder to bottom of 825 gr slug,
and at 40-45k in Savage will match factory
700NE loads, the 2000 fps loads.
The case sides at mouth are .024"
thick so headspacing on mouth will be solid.
Extractors easy to reset for rim. Work on bottom of
action couple hours. Easy to beef up firing pin.
Cases don't cost 20 bucks like
700NE.Ed