Here are a couple pictures. We have two rifles going, one is a plain walnut stock that started life a Remington 700 ADL and we recut it. It has the second 44 barrel, chrome moly. Fore end may end up shorter.
Second stock is the maple, one shot in the stock machine- action shot, was actually running. second full length on the dirty brown carpet. The fore end needs to be shaped and cut shorter. Even rough the grain shows up using a flash.

Mark








Dave making the chips

Here's a stock similar to what you've got going that I did on a '91.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
Here's a stock similar to what you've got going that I did on a '91.

Yes. Swed and Spanish Mauser have s similar straight stock. I took the dimensions for this one right off a Win 94
The Mauser stocks are quite a bit thicker at the toe, from the rear the are oval almost symmetrical top to bottom (I think it is for busting heads in hand to hand combat). The Winchester is a long teardrop shape with the point at the bottom. Early Winchesters where the bump up aft of the grip are also thin, not so much on later ones.
I looked at a lot of stocks.

The rules change allowing rifles in shotgun zone is now official, same as proposed rules.

https://mucc.org/approved-expa...edium=&utm_campaign=

"On June 12, 2014, the NRC approved this change in hunting regulations!

Now called the “Limited Firearm Deer Zone”, the added firearms for deer hunting include:
•A .35 caliber or larger rifle loaded with straight-walled cartridges with a minimum case length of 1.16 inches and a maximum case length of 1.80 inches.
•A .35 caliber or larger air rifle or pistol charged only from an external high-compression power source such as an external hand pump, air tank, or air compressor."

Couldn't you do a short .458 2 inch. I think you could beat the .45-70 without much problem. There is also the .50 Beowulf if the belt is a problem.
C.G.B.

Of course, he could do a 458-2 inch, an old, established wildcat. But remember, one of his design parameters was cheap/free/readily available brass.
BTW, here in Iowa, the way some idiots blast at deer with their shotguns, giving them rifles would be a recipe for disaster. They pay no attention to backstops or where their slugs end up. They party hunt in mass groups and it is best to stay far away from them. And it ain't perfectly flat here either.

I see a 1.8" 45-70 loaded long is the most simple solution. You would need bullets with enough shank to load out to nominal OAL but you get all the power of the 45-70.

A trimmed 45/70 may be able to be fired in a standard chamber. Accuracy may suffer but we are not talking a bench gun. The exposed area of the chamber where the case was trimmed would get cruddy but really the only time the short rounds would have to be used would be while hunting. I would run the concept by the DNR officer to make sure he is cool with the idea of a rifle that would chamber a longer round.
The 50 Beowulf has availability and cost of components and the highly rebated rim scares me off.

I think we need to keep in mind the rifle is to hunt whitetail deer at pretty close range. Some of the ideas have a lot of power for the job. I do not want to be the one using a stubby cannon round and be the one the fingers point at if the DNR changes back to shotgun only.

I am at this time committed to the 44 cal. I will have it finished in a week or two except for the chamber reaming.

Mark

Another thought would be a long .44 automag. It is just a .308 case trimmed, reformed and reamed. 250-300 gr bullet seated out a bit, would probably function in any standard length action.
C.G.B.

quote:

Originally posted by cgbach:
Another thought would be a long .44 automag. It is just a .308 case trimmed, reformed and reamed. 250-300 gr bullet seated out a bit, would probably function in any standard length action.
C.G.B.

This is what I am doing but using 30-06 cases because where the case is cut off at is behind the shoulder and saves a bunch of expanding. If I do not like neck thickness I will try shorter cases and look for thinner walls.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Clark:
I would run the concept by the DNR officer to make sure he is cool with the idea of a rifle that would chamber a longer round.
Mark

I wouldn't worry about how long the chamber is....a officer has no way to check it in the field...the gun would need to be sent to the State Police Lab... all they are going to worry about is the 1.8" maximum length of brass in the gun or your pocket.

It wouldn't hurt to carry a cheap digital caliper in your backpack....just encase you meet up with one of the many DNR officers with limited knowledge of firearms and ammo.

I am glad that here in the worthless nut state we are not governed by length. As long as it is a straight wall we can use it but they don't list any of the belted cartridges.

Rad

We received the chamber reamer yesterday. In some free time today I worked on a gauge.
When we get the barrel chambered we can do final trim of the cases and make some noise.

Mark

We finally got it done.
We had to ream the cases after trimming to 1.8". Used the load data from the 445 Super Mag as the starting point. The 445 is 0.2" shorter than my case and at lower pressure.
Using 265 grain Hornadys with the rubbery tip and Acurate 1680 36 grains for the first shot. Worked up to 39 grain. We were firing into a bullet trap, at 39 the recoil is more than the 444 Marlin and primers were still rounded.
Chronograph to be done at range.

Mark

I've been following along...congrats on a fine wildcat.

Some things that 444 M shooters forgot or never understood, the 444 was hampered by barrel length to begin with and also was developed for a lever gun at lower pressures than available in a bolt shooter and also shorter COAL.

Load the 444 up for use in a BOLT gun at bolt gun pressures, a longer barrel and a longer COAL and you will get velos that will make your eyes pop out.

You are also starting to understand(possibly) the nuances of case capacity vs powder burn rate, not all cartridges were designed for optimum powder efficiency.

When you cut that case back to 1.79" you made it more efficient for faster burning powders at close to 100% case volume capacity. You can get the pressures up into the 60KPSI plus zone safely, BUT VERY QUICKLY, and get the same or higher velos as the standard 444 M case in a lever gun.

Two other powders, Lil' gun and H110 will work very well also but because there is a small range of powders suitable for this cartridge and they are fast burning pistol powders you need to increase VERY SLOWLY...on the order of two tenths of a grain increments.

Your load of 39 gr of AA1680 is running ~35 KPSI/2014 fs/88% capacity at a COAL OF 2.50", 22" barrel length, with that bullet according to QL...~44 gr of AA1680 gives ~100% capacity/~51.7 KPSI/2264 fs/3016 ft-lbs...not bad indeed.

Lil'Gun tops out at ~41 gr 93%/61.5 KPSI/2382 fs/3340 ft-lbs and...

H110 tops out at ~42.5 gr 94%/61.7 KPSI/2386 fs/3351 ft-lbs.

If I were developing loads for this one I would stop at .5 gr less for pressures in the 60 KPSI range...your 700 action will stand quite a bit more pressure but because the case is straight walled sometimes the "normal" pressure indicators don't work as well, pistol powders increase pressures VERY QUICKLY with small increment increases and you really need your chrono to tell the story along with your targets.

FWIW I cur a 444 case to 1.79" and got 58 gr H2O capacity...the 445 Supermag is about 49 gr so you have some wiggle room by using the 445 data.

PLEASE...Be sure to post your load and chrono data, barrel length and COAL so I can correlate the QL data with real world data. Thanks

That "gummy bear" bullet is an excellent one for deer/black bear/elk at ranges out to about 250 yds(my limit for bullets with BC's in the.2-.3's) with a fairly high, comparatively speaking, BC...you definitely have a winner there.

Luck...

FORGOT TO ADD in;

RECOIL for the 39 gr AA1680 load is ~19 ft-lbs in a 8.5 lb gun and ~24 ft-lbs for the 44 gr load.
RECOIL for the 42.5 gr H110 load is ~25 ft-lbs, about equal to a 250 gr bullet at ~2500 fs...Whelen, 350 Rem Mag, etc., but with a much larger bullet cross sectional area.

We made the 585 HI 1.8" long for use in these areas.

Holds 80gr ball powder under 58cal Minie bullet.

Harriest short case for deer a going.

Concept takes work for finding and redoing brass, remers made,

so found it was lot less work to make the 3" long

24ga FH brass case, from readily available brass and reamers,

stamp brass and barrel as legal 24ga, get power like 458 WIN,

with same Minie bullets.Bullets blunt stays idea of shorter range

shooting...They are real killers on deer and hogs. Ed

Nonagonagin,
Thanks for the info.
When I go with cast bullets the 35000 psi will probably be good.
When talking case capacity and percent loading is it to the mouth of the case or bottom of bullet?
After testing what I have loaded with A1680 I thin lil gun will be next, I have had good luck with it in other cartridges.

Mark

Actually it's both...

The hard way...

I put the case on my digital scale then turn it on...that will give you a zero reading, then fill up with an eye dropper. I also use an old stuffed nose squirter with the tube pulled, you can also just tare out(zero) the scale, fill to the top of the case. That will give you the total weight of H2O.

Then insert the bullet into the case to the seated depth, a fired case works better because the bullet will slip into the case and the water will come out around the bullet, pull the bullet out and weigh again on the same scale, WITHOUT zeroing out...that will give you the displaced water...the percentage is dividing the full weight from the displaced weight and multiplying by 100.

The easy way and the way most internal software does it is just use the filled weight and let the program do the calculations.

The Powley Computer...

http://kwk.us/powley.html...

will do the calculations for you...just fill in the blanks. Powley won't give you any data other than for IMR and the older Hodgdon powder...I don't think is has any data on Lil'Gun or any AA/RL etc powders, but it might have some on H110....check it out

Basically there is just over 15% difference between your case and the 445 SM...49/58=~84.5 - 100 = 15.5% and the SM is loaded to 40.6KPSI so you have plenty of leeway as long as you creep up on the velocity slowly.

I haven't shot any Lil'Gun so I don't know how it reacts at the upper pressures, but I have shot a lot of H110 in my Ruger 44 mag Blackhawks so I would go with that powder first.

This being a wildcat and pistol powders not always acting in a linear fashion as the pressure goes up, I would go very slow with them.

The 450 Bushmaster has a case capacity of 60 gr and lists Lil'Gun, H110, Win 296, AA1680 and 4227 for 250 and 300 gr bullets at ~39.2KPSI so you might just check out that data, there's only a small difference in bullet OD so the data should interchange...NOT THE BULLETS THO'.


Luck

I finally had a chance to shoot at the range. Back about Christmas I shot some cans but it was cold and windy so I did not shoot paper as it would blow away.
The rifle has a scope with a 5x Max so it is set up for hunting not targets. I used the above load, 265 Hornady and 39 grains 1680, I shot 2" groups at 100 yards. I am sure about half the spread is my fault, with higher power scope and a better rest it would go an inch.
I did manage to find an 8 lb container of AA1680, now I need to find more bullets. I have a couple thousand Remington 240 flat nose but I have been told they are not good over pistol speeds.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
240 weatherby cut to 1.8" necked to 44 cal bullets with a bit of neck reaming should be a good option but does not fit the easy to obtain at the local shop brass criteria. Have you considered a shortened 45-70?

I handled one of these in gunsmiths class in high school. Since the 240 is just a rimmed 30-06 case it was easy. It was a 429 DRD on the barrel. IDK who or what that was, just know the case eas trimmed right as the Weatherby radius started so the length was long. Basically a 450 Marlin of old. I think it was well over 2" but obviously could be shorter if needed.

It was using 265 grain Remington slugs from the 444 Marlin and 44 Magnum 'carbine' loads. Action was that Arg 1891.

I got to hunt with the rifle!
http://forums.accuratereloadin...861045512#8861045512

I used the Hornady 265 grain FTP. Although they killed the hogs they came apart and only fragments were found.

Mark

Mark, Nice Build! Have you had a chance to use it on deer yet? I took a similar path around the same barn and made a 44x1.8" last year after talking about it for years with some guys on Gunco. There are more pictures there http://www.gunco.net/forums/15...ser-444-1biggun.html Wish I would of found this thread sooner as it would of help speed things up a bit. I'm also in MI and hunted the "limited firearm zone" in 2014 with a rimless 357Max in an ar15 (357AR) and got a buck. Made one for my son last year and he got a big doe with it. I toted around my 1891 Mauser (made in 1893 by ser#) but saw no shootable deer after making sure my son got one. Perhaps this fall they will be cooperative. I started with a $100 sporterized 1891 mauser that I picked up several years prior very cheaply. Made a chamber reamer and headspace gauges. Threaded and chambered the barrel before taking a lot of chips off of it in a mill to make it octagon. Made the front site and swivel base from some scrap steel. Thinking about going with a scope this year and still need to rust blue the barrel. Here's hopefully a couple pics

Dan

I haven't done much with it since November, I did take it for a truck ride during javelina season.
I still am hoping to use it in Michigan, maybe this year it will happen.
What bullets are using? I used the Hornady 265 grain with the plastic tip, all came apart with just fragments recovered.

M

I also used the 265gr hornady flextips. I didn't load it as hot as yours though. The first load I tried shot good so I stuck with it since at that point deer season was two weeks away. 33.0gr IMR4227 which according to quickload is supposed to have around 38k-psi and leave the barrel at around 1970fps. Slower than my 444 marlin, but figured it was prudent to keep the pressure down since the action is 123 years old. If those bullets come apart at the slower velocity I can always switch to Remington flat points which seem to do ok in my marlin.

I've been unable to find reloader 7 locally which I want to try as it gives about the same velocity at 34k-psi and a full case. I have some 1680 that I want to try also. I'm gathering parts for an ar10 based rife that could be loaded hotter. Still deciding on a good bullet mold for this one.

Used to make .445 Supermag from .303 British. If someone had an Enfield that could be rebarreled, that may make a handy deer rifle.

Built an AR10 for this cartridge last year and was able to increase the pressure over what I've been using in the 1891 Mauser. In the AR10 using a 225gr flextip the chronograph average was 2407 fps with a QuickLoad guestimate of the chamber pressure at a very mild 51,994 PSI.

Last year I got another Texas hog with mine, still happy with it.
Big slow bullets always work.

M

No hogs or bears near me to hunt, just deer. Taken quite a few with 240gr 44 jacketed and cast bullets over the years. I'm still looking for a good 300-350gr bullet mold that will feed well in the ar10. I already have a 310gr WFN mold for my 444, but they don't feed as well as I'd want out of the ar10 because of the blunt profile. Likely end up just having one made.

Finally got a deer with mine in the regular gun season. 80yds angling away heart shot with a 265gr FTX at 2150 fps did the trick. Bullet didn't exit but did penetrate over 36" of deer and expand up to .6" for about 2/3rds of the diameter and about an inch across for the last 1/3rd. Buck trotted about 20-25yds and just dropped.

Think I've got the picture thing figured out. Here's my 1891 Mauser with octagon barrel and AR10. The 6pt is this seasons deer taken with the AR10.

Gathering parts for a 44x1.8" AR15. The hardest part was rounding up a .473" 65K psi rated bolt and extension (the rounded lug style). Hope to start when it's a little warmer.

Still waiting on a gas block, but it's done enough to shoot. AR15 in 44x1.8" (possible with the special rounded lug bolt/extension). 8# 1oz without the suppressor and only 8 months 6 days till deer season opener.

All this just show the stupidity of caliber and cartridge restrictions it..

If there are any some one well find a better way of doing

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
All this just show the stupidity of caliber and cartridge restrictions it..

If there are any some one well find a better way of doing

The restrictions are pointless but had the rifle in shotgun rules not been implemented I never would have made this rifle.
It is now my favorite for close hog/deer hunting.
So some good came from the he stupid rules.

M

I like them much better than shotguns that we've been required to use in the past. I really like my 444 Marlin but can't use it where I hunt, but can get the same performance with this and be legal. Likely hunt this fall with a Hornady 265fn-innerlock at around 2300fps out of the 16.5" barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Hans Moleman:

I LOVE it!! i have a softspot for '91s