In Michigan half of the state is deemed to be shotgun only for deer hunting. This year a bill was passed to allow certain rifle cartridges to also be used.
They must be, straight walled, greater than 35 caliber with no max, a minimum 1.16” and max of 1.8”. These rules were loosely based on Indiana’s rifle rules with the addition of straight wall as a requirement.

I am thinking of a 30-06, 308 etc expanded to 44 cal, trimmed to 1.79”, and headspace off the case mouth

I had it suggested to use a cut off 444 Marlin case, however 444 brass is hard to find and 30-06, 308 brass is widely available. I want to use a bolt action (Rem 700), the 444 rim would require bolt work likely including a new extractor.
In internet searches I have found similar at lengths equal to 308, 444, and 30-06 but not shorter, other than real short-- an Auto Mag.
I made a couple of dummy rounds and they feed slick through my standard 308 until they jam in the chamber. I use -06 brass as it can be cut off below the shoulder for minimum expanding.
As a guess to performance 300 grains at 2000, estimated from 445 and 444 data.

Goals-
Available brass
44 cal (I have 1000s of bullets)
Bolt gun with minimum action work
MI legal in shotgun area (I have a friend with a farm)

Has anyone tried something like this?

Mark

240 weatherby cut to 1.8" necked to 44 cal bullets with a bit of neck reaming should be a good option but does not fit the easy to obtain at the local shop brass criteria. Have you considered a shortened 45-70?

There is already a suitable cartridge meeting your criteria; the 45-60 WCF, and you can get Model 76s for it. Case length is 1.89. Otherwise, no reason you couldn't make your 44 wildcat. Oh, I see you have to have a bolt; then go for your wildcat. Use 444 dies.

The rim diameter on both 45-70 and 45-60 is a bit large for most bolt actions
As for dies I was going to try the 444 and if they do not size the case enough try 308 or -06 dies and run the case in until I get the results I need

That will work; Interesting round for a specific purpose. You could load it up to high pressure too. For bolt actions, I reduce the rim diameter of 45-70s to make them feed. No need though; for a bolt action, your rimless idea is better. I would like to experiment with this round....

Did they finalize that legislation? Last I knew it was awaiting the governor's approval. I'm eagerly awaiting it passing so I can build a .357 max carbine for hunting the thumb.

The 25-35 necked up to 35 and cut back to 1.8 would be great for these restrictions. Put some new life in a 30-30 via rebarrel and load out to 2.55". They said "Straight walled" but nothing about taper or perpendicular. These guys who pass the laws are clueless idiots.

About two weeks ago I emailed Michigan DNR to get a clarification about case taper. I received the auto response saying they usually answer in 2 days. Nothing yet. I think my questions are to technical and they have no answer.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Kedron:
Did they finalize that legislation? Last I knew it was awaiting the governor's approval. I'm eagerly awaiting it passing so I can build a .357 max carbine for hunting the thumb.

I my research is correct there are two avenues for this
It was passed in House and Senate and on the Governors desk. The House passed it 106 to 0 so likely for signature.
The DNR has a recommendation to make the change without the bill (they can do with just a regulation change) http://www.michigan.gov/docume...o_Final_456354_7.pdf It may happen June 14.

Even if it is not approved it would be an interesting and useful cartridge, good other places for deer and hog. As dpcd stated bump the pressure and get at or near 444 performance or load down to 44 mag.
I was thinking calling it 44 MLC. It can stand for "Michigan Legal Cartridge" or my initials.

Mark L Clark

I agree it sounds useful regardless. I live in the Upper Peninsula where rifles are legal but have friends with farms in the slug zone and I love to fill doe tags down there. That being said, I've never had a shot at a deer up here that coudln't be done satisfactorily with any pistol cartridge. 100 yards is a long poke in Marquette County.

I am building that rifle as we speak; I have a barrel on order and will put it on a 98 action. I am calling it the 444 Michigan. I am pretty sure I can get 444 Marlin velocities out if it with bolt action pressure (50K psi). It has 81% of the 444 Marlin's powder capacity but that can be made up for with higher pressure. Best thing, as you said, brass is almost free.
Here it is; 240 grain bullet; 40 grains of 4198. It feeds perfectly from a 98 Mauser. Brass is LC90. It was easy to neck up in one step.

Perhaps a 1.8" 240 WBY or 220 swift with 300 grain .423 bullets would be good. That would be straight perpendicular walls with a belt or semi rim to headspace on. Call it the 404 error lol

As the OP suggested, one of the design criteria has to be that of readily available brass, ,which the Wby and 220, ain't. The cut down 308s will headspace fine on the case mouth.

Well if those are hard to get perhaps a super size option of chopping win mag brass to 1.8 and stuffing with 458 bullets. The 375 HH has enough taper to trim and stuff without trouble. Win mag brass and 45-70 bullets are pretty common.

Yep, that would work well; instead of a 458x2 inch, it would be a 458x1.8 inch. Essentially a belted 45-60.

Could be a fun 28 gauge bolt action slug gun if you do not mind using 460 WBY brass. WSSM, WSM or single shot action. Cheap bullets and brass would last forever. Should get nominal 28 gauge performance if loaded out enough. Get it classified as a shotgun cart but if you do not want to deal with the over .5" issue Michael458 has a sweet cart called the 50 super short that I just love that will fill this niche quite well.

I called Manson and ordered a reamer today. Now I am committed, or should be committed.
I am thinking a 20" barrel, mostly for appearance rather than function.

I have a nearly done 28 gauge on 460 cases, a 550 Express. I think it would have plenty of knock down for deer.

Mark

I recommend that your reamer have enough throat length to allow the 240 bullets to be seated out like the one in the pic above; otherwise you will lose quite a lot of powder space. I was only able to get 40 grains of 4198 in it by seating the bullet into the case about .2 inches. My 444 Marlin reamer which I was going to use, has essentially no throat at all; tapers right from the case neck.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Clark:
I called Manson and ordered a reamer today. Now I am committed, or should be committed.
I am thinking a 20" barrel, mostly for appearance rather than function.

I have a nearly done 28 gauge on 460 cases, a 550 Express. I think it would have plenty of knock down for deer.

Mark

Love the 550 express.
I was thinking a shorter version would be cool as soon as I shot Jeffeoso's but around 2.25" to be used on a WSM gun. A 1.8" version would be a nice doe stopper

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I recommend that your reamer have enough throat length to allow the 240 bullets to be seated out like the one in the pic above; otherwise you will lose quite a lot of powder space. I was only able to get 40 grains of 4198 in it by seating the bullet into the case about .2 inches. My 444 Marlin reamer which I was going to use, has essentially no throat at all; tapers right from the case neck.

I ordered it the same as the 444 however we have a throating reamer so I can adjust as needed.
I too was going to use the 444 reamer but it had two issues. The base diameter is too small if the reamer is held 0.4 short and both 444 reamers we have the case mouth is at 45 degrees and not good for head spacing.

M

A big tad off topic but I was thinking about the ideal 28 gauge slug weight and velocity and I think 1oz slugs at 1,600 should be good and obtainable but would like to see some quick load predictions for a much heavier slug around 1.5oz or 600 grains to compete with 12 gauge performance.

I see an issue with "Super Slug Guns" and the game warden. If the ammo does not look like the wardens preconceived notion of shotgun ammo the hunter will have to explain it to a judge.

A .55" dia bullet in a 1.8" long case 1600 fps should be do-able, a slug with rifle accuracy and passes inspection by the warden as a rifle.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Clark:
I see an issue with "Super Slug Guns" and the game warden. If the ammo does not look like the wardens preconceived notion of shotgun ammo the hunter will have to explain it to a judge.

A .55" dia bullet in a 1.8" long case 1600 fps should be do-able, a slug with rifle accuracy and passes inspection by the warden as a rifle.

Mark

Think of the mini 550 as a 500 S&W on steroids.

I see your point and documentation of a sporting cartridge would need to be filed and since there is a 550 Magnum and Express it should be easy to do. Another thought is an uber short Gibbs case to .585" and use 577 bullets or 58 cal muzzle loader bullets.

Mark, you are right; I will only use the 444 marlin as a test bed; the angled shoulder is not good for headspacing. I planned to rum a 308 reamer to get the base diameter right. But I do not have a .430 throater so I can't lengthen the throat until I get a reamer made. I do see that you know what you are doing. And you are right about the shotgun/rifle ammo; if it won't fire a shotgun shell, you are in trouble, and probably will be anyway if your ammo looks like a big brass rifle shell.

I work for a gunsmith, Dave Van Horn, he is old school and has hundreds of reamers including many wildcats. I looked at every combo I could think of to avoid buying the reamer for a prototype. The one that might work is a 44 Auto Mag run in WAAAYYY too deep to give a square edge to headspace followed by a 375 JDJ to open it up for the base of the case. Or the opposite order. But the odds of a disaster are very high so I ordered the reamer.

Today I contoured the barrel. Stainless, 20", Rem Sendero taper with a 0.800" muzzle. Fit is too heavy when done I can turn it smaller.
May do the threads on Monday.

Mark

Roughed out the stock. Many will hate it. I have a pattern for a Rem 700 with a straight grip and a butt similar to a Win 94, wood is fiddle back maple.
Dave made a fixture to cut off -06 cases to 1.9 in the lathe, did about 100. Now need to trim to final length.

Mark

45 Raptor

Have an automatic.

I threaded and cut bolt relief in barrel. The Holland recoil lug I had bought had a bore of 1.115, it was not marked as being oversize. Good thing I measured it before cutting the shank. When the chamber reamer shows up I am ready.
Stock blank is in duplicator waiting for me Monday.

Mark

Glad your project is coming along and should make a great deer round.

But this is a prime example of these foolish cartridge restriction laws.

Set the paramours and some one well come up with something that meets the letter of the law.

But far exceeds what they are trying to stop up or down in size.

quote:

Originally posted by wookie76:
45 Raptor

Have an automatic.

Wookie,
Nice, they have done a lot of work and spent big bucks being to the stage of having head stamped brass.
The issue I see in using the Raptor for MI deer is the case length is 1.8"- right at the limit. With any case stretch it would be over, yes only a couple thousandths, but meeting the wrong warden and it would become a bad day. This is why I am using 1.790", no question, it is under 1.8.

P Dog,
The rules are silly but I believe I have no control over the actions of politicians and bureaucrats. So I just went with it as a design project to meet the rules and utilize what I have, (lots of 44 bullets).

Mark

More thoughts on the 1.8" wildcats. I think the 500 NE blown out straight necked to .550" or 28 gauge is a compelling cart. Similar to the idea of necking the 577 to .615" or 20 gauge. That should be powerful enough for shooting slugs at a decent velocity. I can see this as a good single shot on a Ruger #1. Yes the brass is not cheap but how much would you need?

Somebody might want to call Mark Penrod as he made a 35 caliber cartridge for Indiana's deer season that shoots very accurately, has the reamers of course, has the load data and had many sets of dies made for sale with the chamber job ahead of time. He has had very good success with this wildcat.

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
Somebody might want to call Mark Penrod as he made a 35 caliber cartridge for Indiana's deer season that shoots very accurately, has the reamers of course, has the load data and had many sets of dies made for sale with the chamber job ahead of time. He has had very good success with this wildcat.

The 35 Penrod is a great cartridge and is made off the WSSM and has a shoulder. The Michigan rules were derived from the Indiana rules but ended up requiring a straight wall cartridge. So the Penrod 35 is out.
Politicians! If all the "Shotgun States" could get together and come up with one set of rules it would be so much better, allow the same rifle to be used in adjoining states.

mark

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Clark:
Roughed out the stock. Many will hate it. I have a pattern for a Rem 700 with a straight grip and a butt similar to a Win 94, wood is fiddle back maple.
Dave made a fixture to cut off -06 cases to 1.9 in the lathe, did about 100. Now need to trim to final length.

Mark

I'd like to see a picture of your stock.

quote:

If all the "Shotgun States" could get together and come up with one set of rules it would be so much better, allow the same rifle to be used in adjoining states.

Wis just did away with shotgun only areas.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

Wis just did away with shotgun only areas.

Except that some areas are not suitable for rifle hunting because thay are too populated. For example, my parents live in a suburban neighborhood about 400 yds from a hunting preserve. If someone were huntng with a .308 and missed, that could be a trajedy. A slug or lower powered bullet is not as likely to make it or be lethal if it does.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but it is relevant.

craigster- Was going to get a pic of the stock today but the maple stock is still rough and ugly and the other from the same pattern was in drying after a coat of finish.

Cowboy- Not a hijack, you are still to the big picture of the topic. Although it is unlikely to happen people need to use common sense and not cut loose with any fire arm close to houses or without knowing their backstop. There are many places in the former shotgun area an appropriate rifle could be used with no greater hazard than a shotgun with slugs.
I have not seen if there are restrictions to cartridges in the WI. I have research to do now.
I have hunted public land in WI in the rifle area.

Mark

After rereading p dog's post, I owe you an appology. I took it to mean that literally everywhere ought to be rifle allowed areas, but "Wis" is refering to Wisconson. My bad if I seemed a bit filled with vitreol.

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy_Dan:
After rereading p dog's post, I owe you an appology. I took it to mean that literally everywhere ought to be rifle allowed areas, but "Wis" is refering to Wisconson. My bad if I seemed a bit filled with vitreol.

You are still right, even if legal the choice of cartridge should be suitable to the area hunted. In a populated area hunting with the 375 RUM is likely not the best option.

Mark

Mark Clark....I just found this post.... the past several months I've been playing around with different cases to come up with a wildcat for Michigan's new Zone 3 law....I didn't play with any .429 because of the lack of pointed bullets and that could be pushed 2000 fps + with out being bombs at short range....maybe Dan at CEB could make up tips for there 200gr. .429....sure would help with those long shots across fields.

Here's a couple I did look at:
.416-240 Weatherby 1.8" with CEB 180gr.... could be built on any bolt gun.... belt for head space

.416-06 1.8" with CEB 180gr.... CRF type action would be preferred for second head spacing

.458-338 1.8" with CEB 250gr. or Hornady 250gr. Mono-Flex inside neck reaming required....could be built on any action....belt for head spacing

.500-300RUM 1.8" CEB 300gr. or Hornady 300gr. Flex-Tip inside neck reaming required.... CRF type action would be preferred for second head spacing

This year I will be using my 50 B&M Super Short(500-325 WSM 1.65") with CEB 300 gr. with tips at 2435 fps for the first shot no tips in the magazine OAL to long.

Sorry about my hijack....I'am looking forward to seeing some numbers when you start burning powder