I've looked through a lot of the old posts and can't seem to find anything on this, so does anyone have one, tried one, seen one, anything ??
I was thinking about this wildcat as a second calibre to a 6.5-284 in a take-down/switch barrel ( see custom rifles thread ).
The shorter, 30-06 capacity case should give me plenty of COAL in an M98 action as well as powder space for some decent velocities.
Using the same cases and two calibres that I already have should also simplify things.
Any thoughts or information would be appreciated.

Roger

It is called the 9,3 BS or Barnes/Sisk iirc.

.....sorry, the B/S uses 350 mag brass very similar in case size and bullet diameter, could give similar performance ??

Roger

Ahhhh yes. Carry on

Would be nice wildcat I suppose, but wouldn't be anything more than a 35 Whelen balistically..and a lot more trouble. One would have to decide if its worth it...So much Wildcatting these days boils down to "the only difference in men and boys is the cost of the mens toys!"

I don't think you will quite achieve 30-06 case capacity once you start seating the long .366 bullets - they will need to be seated deeply to fit a 2.8" short action magazine; taking up a lot of powder space in the cartridge case. I think you will end up with the powder capacity of the 9.3x57 mauser instead of the 9.3x62. And if you use a mauser action instead of a true short action, why not just use the 9.3x62 if that is what you want?

The main reason for the .284 case is to match the 6.5-284 case in a switch barrel rifle.As they will be in an Oberndorf action, the length shoudn't be a problem.
I have asked about this wildcat purely out of curiosity, as I thought it would be an interesting combination (9.3 and 284 case)and that it would also be a good companion, both calibre and case wise, to the 6.5-284 in a switch barrel.

Roger

quote:

Originally posted by yumastepside:
The main reason for the .284 case is to match the 6.5-284 case in a switch barrel rifle.As they will be in an Oberndorf action, the length shoudn't be a problem.
I have asked about this wildcat purely out of curiosity, as I thought it would be an interesting combination (9.3 and 284 case)and that it would also be a good companion, both calibre and case wise, to the 6.5-284 in a switch barrel.

Roger

Nothing that can't be solved with money. Be sure to blow the shoulder out a tad and get a 9.3 throater. Then you can seat the Barnes out any length.
Barnes because you never have to worry about a crimp groove.
With the shoulders blown out a tad and seated way out, x62 capacity should be close.

another one "close" that has been done is the 284 necked up to 375. there was an article in one of the handloader digests about it.

375-284 Was a fairly common XP-100 rebarrel in the 1990s. Back when folks needed a short action that would eject out of a XP for ephalumps and woozels.

That would be a good fit in an intermediate action. Think of it as a short handled sledgehammer.

I see the .284 cased wildcats as the berries for the Lever/auto guns like a Savage 99, Win. 88 and 100, and the Browning BLRs, as that was the reason for the case head and the design in the first place....

I don't want any case with a smaller case head than the case body in a bolt action rifle, that was a mistake with the 425 WR, and the .284 to start with..Creates feeding problems, especially when wear begins to set in..

I purchased a Savage 99 in 358 Win. that had a bad screw driver scratch where a smith in Twin Falls tried to gouge out half a case, ruined the gun and had to buy the rifle..I bought the rifle cheap and rechambered it to a 35/284, did another with a .308 some years later..The 35 almost equaled the 35 Whelen, and the 30/284 almost equaled the 30-06..both were decent wildcats for the Savage 99 and would have been the full equal to the 35 Whelen and 30-06 in a bolt gun, but why would one do that??....

The 9.3x.284 will not equal the 9.3x62 as the 9.3x62 case has more powder capacity than either the 30-06 or the or the .284 case. Making 9.3x62 cases from 30-06 brass cuts you short on velocity not to mention its not a particularly safe practice. and brass life is quit short with max or near max loads..At one time we had to use 30-06 brass, but today I see no reason to use it as 9.3x62 brass is cheaper than 06 brass and has more powder capacity and delivers more than 100 FPS velocity at safe pressures. I use Graffs PPU 9.3 brass at about $56.00 per hundred..May be an OK round in the pistols, wouldn't know about that...Also you have to use a 06 length action with a 284 case.

Interesting idea for a combo barreled rifle.

Thanks Mick, thats brilliant!......I agree, it should be an interesting cartridge.
I'm not looking for x62 velocities, as I said previously, its meant to be a match for the 6.5-284 to ( hopefully ) make it easier to get both cartridges to feed from the same action ...besides I already have a x62, x57 and x74R
.....however it comes out, it should be fairly potent out to 200M from a 20" barrel



....6.5- 284 and one of my 6.5x55 Imp. blown out to 9.3 ( sorry, I only had one 284 case and the x55Imp is pretty close to the 284 )...pretty good match I'd say ......72grs of water....that seems a lot.....puts it up there with my .325 Express (8mm-06 Imp.) or the 35 Whelen.

Roger

From what little I played with it in QL, it will thump fairly hard down range. Good luck with your project.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

I don't want any case with a smaller case head than the case body in a bolt action rifle, that was a mistake with the 425 WR, and the .284 to start with..Creates feeding problems, especially when wear begins to set in..

I know by where Ray speaks after building my 8mm X 425 WR. Bad news.
However, I was lucky in 1966 when I built my 6.5 X .284 on an Araska . Whatever The gun smith did to modify the feed worked just fine roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
However, I was lucky in 1966 when I built my 6.5 X .284 on an Araska . Whatever The gun smith did to modify the feed worked just fine roger

Arasaka you say. How is the OAL?

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
However, I was lucky in 1966 when I built my 6.5 X .284 on an Araska . Whatever The gun smith did to modify the feed worked just fine roger

Arasaka you say. How is the OAL?

Dont remember any problem at all. The military bullet stuck out a good bit ; almost an inch. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
However, I was lucky in 1966 when I built my 6.5 X .284 on an Araska . Whatever The gun smith did to modify the feed worked just fine roger

Arasaka you say. How is the OAL?

Dont remember any problem at all. The military bullet stuck out a good bit ; almost an inch. roger

Cool!

I have a 375x284 on a mex action. Done right, there is ZERO issues with feeding from a mauser.
The difference between it and my 375 Hawk-Scoville would take a good imagination to notice on game.

It makes since for a switch barrel project, if your willing to give up some velocity, mostly form a feed and function stand point, as the rerbated case head might not work if you used the 9.3x62 case..Never tried it but pretty sure that would be a problem...I would try the 30-06 and the 9.3x62 in your present gun for feeding and see it it would function, that's better than going on measured case specs, this early in the game.

The 500 Jeffery is also a rebated rim.
Do you think one of Duane Weibe's 500 J rifles isn't going to feed just fine?!

Back 40,
Dunno, never used one or had the opertunity to try one out...It pretty easy to punish a rebated rim to jam however or at least that's been my experience therefore I choose not to use them for DG rifles, but I am not the gun cop, I leave that up to others..but I retain the right to my opinion.

As to Duane he is a great gunsmith with all my respect but I won't every use a rebated rim cartridge for DG, and my experience on DG is way beyond his, as his is beyond mine at building rifles.. end of story..other than your post is a loaded question without substance.

My point Ray, is the rebated 500 J is still made and highly regarded. As far as experience,
Tony Sanchez Arino and Jamieson Fletcher used it and considered it the best of the best, and their experience far out weighs anyone's on AR.
How do you know it fails when you said you have never used one?
Everyone gets to use what they want, but to imply a rebated case is bound to fail is just not true.

Shits and giggles.
You could make this cart using a 9,3x64 Brenneke reamer to the 284 case length to save time on custom reamers.

http://revivaler.com/the-9-3x6...-and-holland-magnum/


Ps
I would rather have a 500 Accrel over a 500 Jeffery any day.

Boom Stick, if I remember right....
Sanchez-Arino and Harold Wolfe worked together to get the 500 J back into production. Wolfe had to get brass made, pressure barrel,loads etc and send them to be tested to meet CIP standards. I think it's Johannson mausers that offer it as a standard chambering now.
I expect to get any of his money back, Wolfe needed it to be a known cartridge to sell.
Even if the 500 AR is a better cartridge.

Back 40,
I am aware of the position of your post and I know those of whom you speak..Im just saying that were I to build a 500 I would opt for a case that is not ebated, and like I said, to each his own. Im sure some feed, but Ive seen many that do not and done by some very well known gunsmiths..Ive seen the same with other similar calibers, same thing, it's been enough to turn me off on rebated rims..

I would make an exception, and that is if one could install the .425 WR feeding clips like the WR then Id be good with a rebated case......

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
The 500 Jeffery is also a rebated rim.
Do you think one of Duane Weibe's 500 J rifles isn't going to feed just fine?!

years ago i built a 425/500 Jeff nicked-named .425 EAE-
Had no feeding issues

Pleaase understand, I have no problem with anyone building a rebated case caliber, wheather is Duane Wibbe, Tony Sanchez or Pres. Obama, As I stated a couple of times, its not for me because Id have no faith in it, and that would disturb me greatly..I have shot buffalo with a 7x57 and a 30-06, I can quote famous individuals that have also done so, and I know many that such a thing would destrub them greatly...That's just the way things are.

I learn so much on these forums.
If a 06 or a 375 have feed issues, it's the rifle wasn't properly checked over before it was taken hunting. If a rebated cartridge fails to feed, it's the cartridges fault.
Paul Grobler shot several thousand elephants. He settled on the BSA 458 as the best tool for the job. Using a push feed and a .458, according to what I read here, he was likely killed 8-10 times with that combo and just didn't know it.
I'm off to check my 9.3/284 for wear, don't want it to fail on me.

Looks like a cool cartridge, but for a medium length action I'll go with the 358 Win.

...it appears that I have created an argument with the rebated rim " issue "

...anywho, my reasons for these particular cases and calibres was stated at the start of this post...

Thanks Dr Lou but I can't see that a .358 Win. could come anywhere near a 9.3-284 load ( this will surely stir up another maelstrom of comments ) ....and tell me, no disrespect intended, but why do American shooters compare everything to the .358 Win. or the .35 Whelen ?

Roger

YUP, YUMA...AR forums are a mine field trap waiting to happen...can't please anyone sometimes. Lots of stuff flying about to prove some non-existent or existent "thingy", you just have to blow off the dust and do your own thing...

And Yes there are a ton of very informed and knowledgeable people on these forums, but you gotta remember each has their own world which may or may not include anything outside that small specific world...Ray is concerned with DG things, I don't blame him for staying away from rebated rimmed cases.

I've been building wildcats on the 284 case for 50 years, give or take, from 22 cal to 416...have had zero feeding issues with mauser clones and push feeds...but I've had more than a few feeding issues with rimless and rimmed/semi rimmed cases in leverguns and you hardly hear any complaints or comparisons on that front.

If you want the maximum from a 284 case, no matter the caliber, the bullets need to be seated out the maximum distance using a flat based bullet seated no deeper than the base of the neck and using a receiver with a mag that will handle the maximum COAL for the bullet...FORGET THAT THE 284 WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED FOR THOSE WIN MODEL 88 AND 100.

In this day and age with all those very nice "fat body's" lying around, I don't see where the hoohaw with the 284 case is anyway...why waste your time with a 66-68 gr case when you can have an 82 gr plus case using the same sized receiver and gain ~17% usable volume.

I doubt I will build anymore rifles or do anymore wildcats...everyone and their cousins are doing wildcats, all the components needed to build your own 'cat are relatively cheap and readily available...if I did do another 'cat I would design one then check CH4D to find dies someone has already done the work on and one of the reamer makes for the reamer and not sweat the small stuff or argue the minutia...just do it.

A good cartridge for an intermediate Mauser action that will take up to 78mm length cartriges. The listed 2,8" OAL could be extended and leave more space for fuel. I would however go up to .375cal with 240-270grain or .410cal using 300grain(.405win bullets).

......this is all very nice discussion, despite the fact that everyone seems to be concentrating on the rebated rim/feeding issue.....lets get back to the real reason for making a cartridge ,not to be too blunt about it,but......how well does it kill things ??
I was looking for some insight on the probable performance of this calibre/case combination, ie. range, close range knockdown ability,advantages/disadvantages (calibre wise )
I don't think diameter,9.3,375 or 400 really matters to me ( I already have some of each ), its just that I have a thing for 9.3's ( and 8mm's, 6.5's and 400's )

Roger

It is basically a 9.3 x 57...whatever that cartridge will do the 9.3 x 284 will do, nothing more, nothing less, and you will only get that if the bullet is seated out with the bullet base flush with the neck base giving maximum powder volume...i.e...cartridge OAL on the ragged edge for a short action depending on the rifle brand.

Basically, it's been done before...nothing really right or wrong with it...if you like the 284 case and the 9.3 bullet...then build one.

Luck

When I built my 11.2x60 I looked at the 284 basic brass from Buffalo Arms. It is very close, .500 for the 284 base, .510 for the 11.2. That being said, if the 284 case was necked to .400, and the bullet seated out, I would guess around 2000 fps with a .400 grn bullet. My 11.2 has a little more capacity, and does 2150 fps with a 400 grn. Or at least that's where I stopped.

Bet you don't casually toss that brass indiscriminately around the veldt.

That's the thing about doing wildcats...there's a whole passel of things you have to look at carefully before deciding WHAT case to pick...this game ISN'T simple, cut and tried, or something to do without prior knowledge of MANY facets of gun lore.

I did a lot of work with long throating the 284 and LA's, a 28" bbl, mostly flat based bullets seated out flush with the case neck for maximum USABLE case volume, case brands that held the maximum weight of water and minimally trimmed.

Found several nice loads for up to 160 gr bullets that were hard on the heals of the 7MMREM...WITH EQUAL BARREL LENGTHS... and surpassed published published 7MMREM when the Rem barrel was cut to 24".

I've done similar work with the 6mm-284 and the 22-243 Midd.

I doubt that many in this day and age would do the same amount of work even though we have many more and much better tools to work with...and you can have CNC reamers/dies made for basically chump change.

Enjoy your Schuler...that's one very neat cartridge...I've looked at several times in the distant past, but it involved way too much work at the time...

I also looked at doing a version using one of the "fatbody" cases, but again there were to many much easier to do cartridges out there and time gathered me up and sent me on my way. There are quite a few cartridges already available using those cases...wouldn't take much to add another using the 284 case...

If it hasn't already been done I'm sure someone has thought about it.


Luck

You are welcome to use my reamer anytime if the 11.2 bug bites again. I have a 5c collet a friend chambered to 458, so a case fits perfectly, and a tool ground to make altering cases as easy as possible. Yes, you'd hate to loose them, but not the end of the world.
I have a 28" 1-10 twist barrel threaded for a Rem 788, 243 action I have. At some point I need to get that chambered to 22-243 and try it out.

Ohhh, Ahhh...that's the way to do it...much better than just chucking up in a three jaw and holding your mouth just right.

Thanks for the invite, I'm just about burned out doing this thing...I have a list of really odd 'cats I wanted to do using cheap actions no one would think of using commercially, but every time I get worked up over one I look at all the rifles that are sitting waiting for me to finish the stock or start load testing or some other minor thing.

I just bought a 450 Bushmaster barrel that won't arrive for a week or so and I'm wondering "what the heck and why" already...I jumped on that pony a little too soon. I'm also trying to work out the problems associated with my location to acquire a Daystate PCP air rifle I don't really need....just want one before I croak off.

I built a 250 Sav AI using a 788 22-250 action. Should have used a 243 action to get the longer COAL so I don't have to single load.

My father had a 788 in 308 that shot the 125/130 gr pills into nickels but would also eat cases even when just bumping the shoulders...case would stretch and the base would expand. Polished out a sizer to just "caress the butt" but never really solved the problem satisfactorily...the action is very stiff but those rear locking lugs...ugh.

You'll like the 22-243...Pick your case brand first and use uniform brass and buy a bunch and fit the chamber throat to the neck dia, be sure the sizer just fits the chamber with a 0.0005" squeeze or slightly less, cut a minimum chamber.

I would also pick the bullet you plan to shoot and buy the largest amount you can...bullet makers have a habit of changing dimensions midstream or used to...Hornady was famous for this...I've measured 3 different ogive lengths in one box in the past...Sierra and Speer were just as bad but all three seemed to have gotten it right the last dozen or so boxes I've bought irregardless of caliber.

I would also go with a 1/10 if you want to shoot longer, heavier bullets. I rechambered my Encore 22-250 1/10 to 22-243 because the original chamber was messed up...wouldn't shoot for sh**. The 1/10 will handle up to 68 gr but you will need a 1/8 at least to handle 75-80. My Encore handles 60 gr v-max's and Sierra 65 and 69 MKHP's as long as the velo is up there. You can get some awesome velos and purple mist with the lighter bullets, IF they stay together...Noslers are the best in that regard.

I use my 22-243 for those 400 plus sage rat shots when the wind isn't raising Cain, 25-06 or 6mm-284 and up when it is.

Happy New Years