460 g&a, 458 lapua, 450 ultracat which is better?

which has the lowest preasure?
what are the case volumes?
which is the cheapest to chamber?
which is the cheapest to make?
which is the easiest to make?
which would be the best for d.g.

thanks

I'm assuming the 450 ultracat is the rem ultra mag necked up, ie rebated 404 Jeffrey, ie pretty much the same as the 460 G&A. The problem with both those cases is the case isn't large enough to provide a good shoulder to headspace on. Hence I would avoid both of them.

The 458 Lapua would be essential the 450 Rigby. Just Get a CZ in 416 rem mag and have it re-barreled and chambered. The larger case would have lower pressures at the same velocity as the 404 based rounds.

Another option is the 460 Weatherby, simply a belted version of the 450 Rigby.

Let's see, questions in order:

Biggest case get's the lowest pressure at the same velocity, you'll have to research that.

Costs the same to chamber any round, provided the gunsmith has the reamer.

Cheapest to make, depends on what route you go. You could likely get a used 460 Wetherby for less than you could build anything. Next cheapest is a Ruger #1 458 re-chamber.

Easiest to make on a repeater is the 450 Rigby on a 416 Rigby donor action, no opening of the bolt or rail work.

Best for DG, well the bullet does the killing so pick your poison. The important part is having a gun that operates reliably.

458 lott...

dang, man, you sometimes go a LONG way for the same thing...

all of them should take a 500 gr at 2300, just so happens that these are all BASICLLY wildcats, which require more work and moey to get done.

go spend 1300 for a ruger RSM in 458 lott, $200 in brass and dies, and tell us how you like it...

or get a cz for $850 in 458 lott...and spend $300 for it to get tuned up

or, to get where you want to go (with NO practical gain)

850 for a cz in 416
$400 for a barrel and barrel work
$250 for reamer and gages
$200 for custom dies
$200 for sights
(assumes you keep the stock)
$400 for bluing and gunsmithing
____
$2300 for a gun that is the ballistic equal to an $850 gun..

i love wildcatting, but not when it EXACTLY makes a factory.

get an rsm

jeffe

Paul, you thread-killer!!!
Nothing like reason to put an end to a guy's fun. Sheesh!
It's obviously the 460 G&A.
The cases will be around forever, you can rebarrel a M70 in 300 RUM (can't give those things away!) and it's just a cool round. Very much like the 450 Vincent or the 450 Canadian Magnum, and none of these have had reports of shoulder problems. I suspect if you went into mass production and needde to get 500 rifles per reamer - and the tolerances associated with it - you might have headspace problems. Not likely to happen with a competent gunsmith.

So:
Lowest pressure is your decision. The 404 case WILL do 500g/2400 within safety by all accounts.
Case volumes are all about the same. The Lapua starts out shorter but much fatter, and by the time you neck it up it gets even shorter (though the 423 D-L may change that). Assuming a 3.6" COL you might get more from the Lapua.
Chamebring costs all depends on who has what reamer. If you want Z-Hat to do the Ultracat, you know they have the reamer.
The Ultracat is cheapest to make so far, but in ten years, I might be able to find Jeffery cases easier than you can find Ultra cases.
Easiest to make would be the G&A, very simple neckup and fireform. The others are coming all the way from .338" or .375".
Each one would be aweful for DG, 'cause all of them would kill it! One of the worst things that can happen to you, in my book!

After all that, I have to say, I see no reason not to rechamber a CZ 416 Rigby in 450 Dakota or Rigby or whatever you like to cal it. The Lapua is nothing more than a short (maybe stronger - but academic at these pressures) Rigby, so why reverse engineer it?
The M70 in 458-404 Imp would make a trimmer package, but not necessarily a good thing with these loads.

thanks for the schooling jeffeosso...
rip is getting good results in his 458 lapua with 450gr north forks



Posted 02 June 2003 18:14
Bwana-be,
The neck is 0.435" long when the case is as short as 2.666".

When the brass is 2.694" long then the neck grows to 0.463".

It has right around a "caliber neck."

When you neck up the .338 Lapua 20 degree per side shoulder you get a much longer neck.

This cartridge is perfect as is.

The 460 Weatherby has about 145 grains of water capacity.

The fireformed 45 Lapua I just checked has 122 grains of water capacity.

45 Lapua is less than a quarter inch shorter than the 460 Weatherby: (2.908" - 2.694 = 0.214") or (2.908" - 2.666" = 0.242"). Let us just call the max length 2.680" with trim to length 2.670" for some nice round numbers that will fit in my chamber. I think the 2.694" length is just starting to intrude into the freebore zone of the throat. The throat is that of the .458WinMag in my "shop mule."

The Lapua case has a thick, strong head and more taper than the Weatherby.

Maybe this cartridge will be an efficiency champ like the .416 Taylor?

I think it will get 2400 fps with 500 grainers at modest pressures.

Perfectomundo, and slick feeding, flawless function. No improvement needed. This is a hunting cartridge. That .416 Rigby body taper, no belt, and full diameter rim add to its appeal.

Even the 450 Rigby is blown out some in the body and shoulder, has less taper, and is longer, close to 460 Wby capacity, and probably a thinner case head. Not so this baby.


he is getting 2500+ and does not seem to have any problems...i emailed him and am waiting for his current assesment of this cart.

i think i just like the idea of it and yes i seem to like getting myself to the same destination in an unconventional way, i am a little nuts that way. my dad and grandad are mechanical genii (plural for geniuses) and i think i inherited some of their unconventional traits and i seem to elevate to the theoretical advantages rather than the practical. my dad is a r&d machinist and my grandad worked for the british govt. during the war in blechley park as an inventor and electric engineer at the secret underground inteligence compound. he invented some cool stuff and was bound to secrecy till his death. he knew way too much but thats another story.

this might help you understand my plight. sorry if it is too much info

bwana...funny i posted a post that went to you while you were posting me unbeknownst

wow what a poet i am

so 450 rigby or 460 g&a has the nod so far...

Let's just put it this way, if you don't think the 458 lott is enough, than it means you want a bigger case. If you want bigger, go all the way, and that means a 460 Weatherby, or one of the beltless versions ie 450 Rigby.

I forgot about case capacities, the 458 Lott burns powder charges in the mid to high 80 gr range, 404 based rounds are in the 90's, and the big W or Rigby runs over 100 grs of powder.

I've had two 458 Lotts and I have yet to find a need for a bigger case for a heavy 45. It does everything the bigger rounds do, in a factory rifle, with factory brass, and parent brass will be available or easily formed so long as hunting rounds are available. You can also get more in the magazine.

Considering there are Rumors that Remington may be filing Capter 11, and they've never been good about supporting their chamberings, I wouldn't count on their brass as a parent case. 404 brass will be available more or less, but at a much dearer price than 458 Lott, and, if you want a bigger case and more expensive brass, just go 450 Rigby.

Ok, don't know how long a 500g bullet is, but a 1.3" bullet gives us this:
Lapua, 2.694" seated to base of neck = aboud 104g water capacity under bullet. COL 3.531"
Jeffery case at COL of 3.6" = about 100g water under the bullet. The Lapua appears to have a 4% increase.
There's the bolt thrust issue, and the magazine capacity issue, and the pressure issue. You should be able to do the deed with a little less pressure in the Lapua case, and have one less under, and be fine in a CZ, but a standard M70 or similar would be at best controversial (though COL doesn't seem to be an issue.)
These are all just figures from RCBS.load, not to be taken as gospel of course, but interesting that it does show this Lapua case to hold 119.7g to the top; pretty close to what RIP reports....

thanks bwana...i think anything on the lapua case would be great as rip says it is the best and i think it will be around a long time. with dakota making 423 lapua it will be easy to go to big bore sizes now. 416, 458, 475 yipeee life would be great with a 30, 338, 375, 416 and 458 lapua isnt daydreaming great

Yeah, it is.
For me, though, I'd like to have that big of a case on the CZ action. And with its available length, I'd just use the Rigby case. (Still quite fond of the Mbogo, myself. Something about that bore size and a 24" bbl.)
One who doesn't mind the Rigby case on the k98-size action could easier fit the Lapua round than the Rigby, but again, you can fit the 404 case and get just a wee less room and smaller case head. Just depends which side of that you're on.
Now, when will Lapua get off their duff and make 3" basic?!
The Mbogo wouldn't mind that stronger web.
I bet the longrange 338 shooters would love that as well. Imagine a300g SMK in 4.25" COL 338 Lapua Long with a 34" bbl....

go with a .458-600 OK. you can get your 500 gr bullet and run it at 3000 fps or more if you like. ONly kidding. I am expermenting with that case but if yu want the best and easiest 458 offering listen to Jeffesso. The 458 Lott is top dog of the 458 world in terms of practacality. Yea you can get faster and all that jass but in the end the Lott is a proven winner.

Hi boom stick,
I just noticed this thread.
45 Lapua is a great cartridge.
Remember that you can throat it to have the long monometal bullets seated out to +3.750", so you are not wasting all that case capacity that a .460 Weatherby does with bullets buried in the case below the shoulder-neck juncture.

I can get 2500 fps easily with 500 grainers, no pressure signs.

That is all I would ask of a .460 Wby, .450 Dakota, or the whippersnapper .450 Rigby a modern wildcat with less following than the older .450 Dakota.

The .460 G&A just doesn't cut it.

They all need to be in a Magnum Mauser action anyway.

100 grains of RL-15 with 500gr Barnes Originals RNSP gave 2499.3 fps and 1.5 MOA accurracy.

I am sure you can do better than that with this cartridge if you want to.

Next time out with this cartridge I would go with 450 grain or 500 grain Barnes TSX's or 450 grain North Forks Cup Point, FP, or SP seated as long as possible. Maybe up to 105 grains of Varget or up to 115 grains of H4350 would be max loads with 500 grainers, to be worked up to from 10% below

My throat was done with a .458 Win Mag reamer, so it is long and sloppy. You could do better by using the .458 Lott standard throat.

if only the 423 lapua/dakota keeps the same case dimensions as the 338 lapua, thanks for the thumbs up

rip, your opinion weighs pretty heavy here, would you say this is the best standard magnum length action 458 there is? the next step up being the mbogo? kaboom! i like the idea of the 450 rigby but the 458 lapua i think is the thinking mans wildcat (ballisticly and strength-wise.) but there probably is not much diference in the field, it is more a mental thing. how does the 458 lapua do on downloading? how slow can you go without sacrificing too much accuracy? lets say you wanted to plink or hunt deer with 300 gr nosler partitions or 300 gr. barnes x? its o.k. if you have not tried just wanted to know if it will do 300@2500 or 2700 without flying all over the place. thanks rip

boom stick,
Regarding the 45 Lapua (.458/.338 Lapua Magnum),
I was getting about 1.5 MOA with this load, also a good one:
COL 3.590"
Old Barnes X-Bullet (XFB) .458/350gr, no crimp
22" barrel, 12" twist McGowen stainless
85 degrees F
103.0 grains RL-15 >>> 2707 fps


And here is a 2 MOA load for Chris Bekker:
COL 3.756"
Old Barnes Original RNSP, no crimp
100.0 grains of H4831SC Extreme >>> 2014 fps

I have the throat of the .458 WinMag on this rifle and it is a sloppy one that is not very accurate.

If I were doing another one, I would use the .458 Lott throat.

It is a good cartridge and could be done in a .375 H&H or a .416 Rigby length action.

The Rigby length action with the right throat would be best.

RIP: how much pressure are you putting on the case shooting a 500 grain bullet at 2500fps?


I read you stated sub 50,000psi when shooting 400 grains at 2400fps.

quote:

Originally posted by Nortman:
RIP: how much pressure are you putting on the case shooting a 500 grain bullet at 2500fps?

55,000 to 60,000 psi is my SWAG on that. Certainly no signs of any pressure problems that I can tell by my SWAGging.

The runout is from the camera lens, L to R:
450 Boom Stick
458 Lapua Short Nose
458 Lapua Long Nose

The Long Nose is very close to a full length Rigby wildcat. Action lengths for these Lapua cats:
.30-06, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby lengths.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by boom stick:
450 ultracat??

[QUOTE]

I believe this is close

Now, Jeffe has prooved that even the .470AR has ample shoulder, if so, how should the .460 G&A have to little?
I do not understand the bad-mouthing of the G&A, while at the same time most people thinks the Ackley is superior to the Lott.
I don't get it.

Two points. The ackley doesn't need the shoulder to headspace on so it's moot.

The issue for the 460 G&A is for a commercially produced round, with inherent tollerances and "soft" shoulder, the G&A was considered marginal. Once you fireform the shoulder sharpens right up and makes for a positive stop.

As I recall, the 470 AR has a bit more shoulder than the the 460 G&A, as the AR is blown out and the shoulder is a higher angle.

I just don't see a dangerous game gun as anything that should be marginal. The round should be easily obtained, run at moderate pressures, feed and extract smoothly, etc.

When you narrow it down thusly, there aren't many choices in 45 cal. To me the 450 Rigby is likely the best, though ammo isn't easily obtained. It is a shape that will cycle well through the action, and runs at low pressures. If you don't want a belt, it's pretty tough to dismiss it.

I hear you, Paul! Thanks for the input! I am not saying you are wrong, but as you say, once fireformed the G&A has more than ample shoulder, and is it not strictly a wildcat? And does it not have more shoulder than the 10,75x68, which have never reported headspace problems, at least to my knowledge?
I agree that the .450 Rigby might be a better design, but it opts for a bigger rifle with reduced magazine capasity - or if not, even bigger yet.

Thanks,