Thanks!

so fully formed should be 50 grains.

This is tricky to name...

the original name was 30 WCF so 40-30 would not be bad and it is not hard to figure out what it is by name if you are gun nomenclature educated.

I will change the working name to 40-30.

I like this little big bore the more I think about it.

The littlest big bore (I think 375 is a medium)

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Gotcha...

So the parallel sided case keeps the bullet in place. so the chamber would be .425" at the neck and .428" at the base?

If bullet diameter is going to be .401", then case mouth outside diameter will need to be at least .431", I'd guess. If it is to use .411" bullets, then I'd suspect maybe as much as a .441 " figure at he chamber mouth....IF this is to be a lever action gun.

I've seen brass commonly run at up to .014" thickness at the mouth. Double that (both sides) takes up .028", obviously. Then a person wants at least .002-003" clearance on the loaded round. Lever guns have little real seating/extracting leverage and a person wants to be able to get a dirty loaded round in and out without needing tricks (like neck-turning brass) to allow him to do so.

So, if the neck diameter of the chamber is going to be .431" or .441",and you want to taper it UP from there to the base by .003" then your base diameters will have to be .434" or .444".

I haven't measured any .30-30 bases just above the rim recently, so I don't know if that is doable. I'm guessing you DO know.

As to a name, I like the old 3 numeral system, so in this case (boo - pun), I'd probably call it the .40-40-210, for the bullet diameter, case capacity, and bullet weight envisioned.

Looking at the 375 Winchester case dimensions, sizing that case to take a 40 cal bullet would make it slightly bigger at the mouth end before allowing for neck expansion on firing. I suppose the same would not be true of sizing up a 30-30 case or would it? The difference would be 7 thou'. Not a lot I suppose, but isn't that neck a bit thin to turn down? Just wondering.

I don't suppose you would consider swaging .401 bullets down to .390 for your Wildcat?

303Guy -

Not answering your question for BoomStick, but I dislike turning any case mouths used in field rifles (as opposed to benchrest rifles) to less than .014" thickness per side.

I suppose the least turning would be needed with expanded .30-30 cases (which should thin somewhat as it expands), and the most with ".30-30 basic" brass, but who knows? I'd prefer to just make the chamber mouth large anough to accomodate them all with NO turning, if that is possible.

Alberta Canuck, you probably missed my 'edit' while you were typing. I should imagine swaging down bullets, just a little, to be a lot easier than turning necks? It would not necessarily meet boom stick's needs or desire but I was just thinking. It might be of some value to him. (boom stick, we are talking about you in front of you. Sorry!) The 303 Brit case is just a little bigger at the base and would require only removing the neck prior to expanding (or maybe even expanding the neck for a longer case at lower working pressure). Would that work for you or would it be too big for the lever actions magazine and other working parts? The rim is wider than the 444 Marlin's rim but the case base is a tad smaller. (I have been thinking of doing a straight-walled case body chambering for a 220-303, so I can lathe turn the chamber and dies - and get lower pressure to boot).

I thought the expanded 30-30 cases were 10 or 11 thou per side???

quote:

Originally posted by Lar45:
You shouldn't have to turn or ream the necks at all. I ran a 416 expander into a 30-30 case and as far down as the caliper would go, it never got over .011". The necks started at .010". A 375 case also was .010" as far as the caliper would go.

30-30 cases are pleantiful and cheap. You could always plug the neck with a piece of wax, then fireform in the 40-30 chamber to get cases to start with. You might have to trim the case mouth to just square things up.
With the right sized number punch, you could probably stamp a 4 over the 3 to get 40-30 Win on the head stamp.

The 375 and 32-40 cases may be longer, but I don't think maximum performance is needed here. If we want max velocity, then go with a larger case like the 444, 45-70 or 50-90.

SSK's JDJ rounds were made so there would be no neck turning once the cases were formed. The same could be done here. Expand a case, seat the longest bullet you think you'll ever want to try, measure the case and have the reamer made to fit.

A 416 straight walled round would probably have to be done on the 30-40 or 303 case.

With a 40 cal you should be able to get a 300gn bullet up to 2000 fps and stay around 50k pressure.

Another thought just popped in. If you wanted to do a .416 on the 30-30 case the base would have to expand some.
I read somewhere about putting a thin piece of tape around the base of the case to keep it centered in the chamber while fireing. This will keep the case head centered in the chamber when fireforming.
You may have to shoot them a couple of times to get the cases to fully fill out. maybe starting with lower pressure loads at first so they don't split???
One guy talked about makeing 284 cases from 30-06 brass this way.
I think the .416- 30-30 would only be a minor stretch.

Here Lar45 says he is getting no more than 11 tou per side so no neck reaming with the .400" bullets.

sorry it took so long to get this pic up...

hmmm... be right back, I have to host it somewhere else...



the 30-30 case I tried to expand was an unfired Winchester brass, that I pulled the bullet, so it was unfired, & I tried to just run it into a 38 special die, well lubed both in & out ???

the 357 H is 357 Herrett, & is made with 30-30 brass

the 40's, I used 375 Winchester unfired brass, run into my 10mm Magnum die... the one marked 200 gXTP measures right on 2.4"

Great!

I assume we can load the bullets out to the 375 oal. Can you measure the outside neck diameter?
Interesting to note the 35 Rem and the 40-30 will have the same capacity.

this should have almost double the usable case capacity as the 10MM loaded out to 2.55"

.010" brass thickness must be consistant, as the case mouth with the 10mm bullet in it is .420"...

... getting the OAL would be tough to match the 375, my cartridge measures 2.525 oal & is loaded with a 200 grain Sierra flat nose bullet. which is much longer than a 200 grain XTP

the 2.4" cartridge only has the bullet seated in about .280"... I normally try to seat about a calibers width deep, on anything other than single shots...

Thanks for the confirmation.

no neck reaming reqired!

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Wheel Man:


the 30-30 case I tried to expand was an unfired Winchester brass, that I pulled the bullet, so it was unfired, & I tried to just run it into a 38 special die, well lubed both in & out ???

The pistol expander/belling die is much more ubrupt which is probably why the case split only going up to 35 cal.


These were opened up in one pass each to .358, .375 and .416
I used once fired cases bought in bulk on Ebay before the determind that empty brass was dangerous(lol).
Some of the Lee products are garbage and some are real good. The expander button for the rifle dies is a real nice part. It looks like the price has gone up to about $24 for the Lee set. It didn't seem like that long ago that I bought several different sets for $12ish.

Does anyone here have experience with leverguns and know if a straight walled case this long will have feeding problems?

the 460 S&w is parralel sided and is 1.8" long. Being that the 460 is high pressure I don't see why this won't work. The chamber dimensions with a few thou of taper in it should work but yet to be tested. Yes please... Anyone with parallel sided lever actions?

I was thinking the smartest thing to do for the reamer is to make it 2.130" long so that all brass from 30-30 to the longer 38-55/basic brass could be used. It will work like the 458 lott/winmag will. That way the lighter pistol bullets could be loaded to the 2.55" for more velocity or lower pressure. What say you?

Yes, cut the chamber for the longest brass(I think that's a great idea. I've heard the 375 Win chambers are cut long enough for 38-55 cases to fit.

If dimensions were going to be drawn up for some standardization, then the lead into the rifleings should be cast bullet friendly. (I don't remember what that should be, but a longer gradual angle vs an abrupt one.)

Are there any levergun gurus out there with any advise or experience on chamber and cartridge taper vs. feeding issues?

There are several of the smaller cast bullet companies that will run custom sizeing of their bullets. So a 300gn Comercial hard cast bullet should be easy enough to get for those that don't cast their own.
I was looking at the 180 and 200gn FMJ pistol bullets and think that they may expand some when pushed past 2000 fps. You might get some info on jacket or plateing thickness by emailing various companies. (thinner jacket may expand?) But when you start with a large bore, you don't always need the bullet to mushroom. Just a nice flat meplat will do the job.

I would be nice if Bauska Barrels was still in business with their $100 rifled blanks.

So what we would have is a 40-30 and a 40-55 but both would work in the same chamber. 2.039" and 2.129" but the same capacity if loaded to the same oal.

are any 30-30 stock barrels thick enough to rebore to .400"?

Boomer -

Think maybe I now understand why the .40 cartridge Winchester designed was not produced...and why the .40-40 may not be practical either.

Went down to the shop last night and fished out 4 once-fired R-P .30-30 cases given to me at the range a year or so ago. (Chose to look at them, as they are likely pretty typical of what the average Joe will have at hand.)

Started doing some measuring. Brass thickness at the neck will not be a problem, other than possibly being too thin for long life. The Four cases were amazingly consistent at . 010" to .011" thickness. They would likely thin another .001" during expansion to accept .401" or larger bullets.

Do the math with me. That means the outide diameter of the necks over the bullets would be approximately:

Bullet - - - - - - - - - - - .401"
Neck thickness (2x.009)- - - .018"
Clearance (for lever guns) - .003"

Total diameter - - - - - - - .422"


Okay, then IF you want .003" taper from the area just in front of the cartridge rim, then the case is going to have to taper from a dimension at that spot (at the web) of .425".

To see if .425" is feasible at the base of the chamber, I measured the 4 once-fired R-P cases again. (They had no visible base swelling, BTW.) Right over the web, just in front of the rim, they all four measured either .413" or .414" diameter.

Loaded, that means those cases before fire-forming would be .011" larger at the neck than at the base. Makes the project likely impractical, if using full .40 calibre bullets.


First, it would mean the cases would have to swell approximately .014" at the base IF they were to be tapered. They'd have to swell about .011" if the case was absolutely straight, with no taper at all.

In my opinion, that much swelling at the web is likely impossible with any reasonable pressures. Even if it did occur, the primer pockets would also probably greatly enlarge.

It would definitely mean that in order to extract fired cases, the back of the chamber would have to be a very loose fit on the rear of the loaded cases, which I don't find a very desirable design feature.

I suspect at this point Winchester dropped the idea because it would require making special dimensioned "basic" cases, just for this cartridge. Add to that the possibility of unintentional factory use of the wrong cases in the wrong ammo production line, and you can envision several very inconvenient dog's breakfasts occurring.

I grant you I may have done the math wrong. Please check it and see if you arrive at the same conclusion I seem to be stuck at.

If the math is correct, I can see why they chose to make the .375 Winchester instead.

Maybe the suggestion to use the .303 Brit case was a good one. I have a .303 Savage, new brass, and dies downstairs too. Later today I will check the dimensions of that brass to see if it is a better candidate. It is also possible the .30-40 Krag would be best shortened and made into a ".40-40 Krag", but the problem with using that case (or the .303 Brit) may turn out to be that a new magazine tube and/or lifter would be required if the rifle was to be other than a single-shot.

Does the idea of sizing down a .401 bullet to .390 not appeal? (Do-able if you can make or get dies. Cast bullets would then be sized in the same die).

Between this thread and my having fired a 500 Winchester magnum NEF carbine this week-end, I am getting ideas of doing a similar thing to my No.4 (which is destined to be my switch barrel gun), using the 303 Brit case opened to 45 or so. I haven’t looked at it yet but I have to keep to a case that will feed with the same bolt face and preferably the same magazine, but not necessarily.

Hmmmmm...

can people with 30-30, 38-55 and 375 Win check the casehead to get an actual dimension for us to check all the sources.

The 8x72 is supposed to be .427" at the casehead so even if a tad smaller maybe it will work but maybe it is made from 30-30 basic??? Or maybe Pete at Quality cart could do some magic by using a different punch to get the casehead larger but the idea is to use common brass and to use 30-30 guns without losing any integrity of the action by going larger on the casehead enough to compromise safety.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Does the idea of sizing down a .401 bullet to .390 not appeal? (Do-able if you can make or get dies. Cast bullets would then be sized in the same die).

Between this thread and my having fired a 500 Winchester magnum NEF carbine this week-end, I am getting ideas of doing a similar thing to my No.4 (which is destined to be my switch barrel gun), using the 303 Brit case opened to 45 or so. I haven’t looked at it yet but I have to keep to a case that will feed with the same bolt face and preferably the same magazine, but not necessarily.

303Guy-



I am about to go back to the shop and measure some .32-40, .303 Savage, and.38-55 brass. (I have and shoot them all, so have plenty of both new and unfired brass.)

If you are going to build the gun on a .303 action, then I'd think the clear-cut choice might be a ".41/.303 Empire
Builder"....the ".41 EB" for short.

Lots more easily available moulds out there for .41" bullets than .40"s, I think. While I'm down in the shop, I might as well measure some.30-40 Krag and .303 brass too, just for grins. Will keep y'all posted.

Okay, youse guys - here's the scoop:

The case which will definitely work through the action and provide the basic starting dimensions we need for making the 40-40-210 brass is...................(darn it)......


the .303 Savage!! It has a base diameter of .338" on the original 70-year old cases, and a diameter of .3375 " on the new Jamison brass. Neck thickness on the originals is .014" to .015", and on the Jamison is .013".

That means neck diameter with .401" diameter bullet in place would need to be

2x.013 = .026"

plus .401"

plus .003" neck clearance to release the bullets,

=.430",

Base diameter with .003" taper would need to be .433"

Both dimensions (neck of .430" and base diameter of .433" would be easy to do for the .40-40 with the .303 Savage brass.


Just so you know, the base diameters of the .32-40 and the .38-55 were both exactly the same as the .30-30, i.e., .414". All neck wall thicknesses for those three were also the same at .010".

The 30-40 Krag base diameter on my W-W brass is .452", with a neck-wall thickness of .015", while that of my R-P .303 British cases was .459" base diameter. I did not bother to measure case neck wall thickness of the .303 brass, as the base is clearly too big to be as easy to use as the .303 Savage brass.



- 303Guy- The .303 measurements I took indicate to me that case would not work out as either a .44 or.45 conversion. To handle the .44, it would require

.030" neck wall (2x.015"),plus

.431" bullet diameter, plus

.003" bullet-release clearance

=.464", which is .005" larger than the base dimension, even with no taper at all.

Of course .45 bullets would require at least .020" larger neck diameter if using only ACP pistol bullets, or .027" larger diameter if using .457" bullets. A no-go, I fear. You might best be served with 300 grain .411" bullets, I suspect.

Great work AC!
30-30 ect brass could be used but the 303 seems to meet the needs right now.

Where to get 303 basic

I will sleuth to see if anything else might work too.

At least we know we have one case that will work.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Where to get 303 basic

Boom - I suspect a call to Jamison might produce some some .303 Savage Basic. If not, one can still buy the .303 Savage formed brass (made by Jamison) from Graf's...and WAAAAYYYYY cheaper than Norma, which Graf's can also supply if a guy really wants it.

quote:

If you are going to build the gun on a .303 action, then I'd think the clear-cut choice might be a ".41/.303 Empire
Builder"....the ".41 EB" for short.

Thanks for that Alberta Canuck. Of course - it is the 444 Marlin case for the 44 cal. But 41 is good! I had never heard of the 41/303 EB before. (I have decided to stay with 303 Brit as the mother case - unless for some crazy and compelling reason a 45/70 becomes irresistable). Where might I find case and chamber dimensions?

quote:

The 30-40 Krag base diameter on my W-W brass is .452", with a neck-wall thickness of .015", while that of my R-P .303 British cases was .459" base diameter.

Interesting - my Speer manual gives the case base dimensions as .457 for the Krag and .455 for the 303 Brit. They give the Brit rim diameter as slightly smaller than the Krag. Mmmm... so if I wanted a longer neck for loading cast in my 303 Brit I could get hold of some Krag cases and modify the neck area of my chamber slightly.

This is all quite interesting! I think you have a neat combo on your hands there Boom. A guy over in the Peterson's world did something similar a few years ago with an 1895 and the 450 Marlin necked down to .40 cal using pistol bullets. Got 405 Win ballistics, which is no slouch. With a bit less powder capacity, I think you'll still make one fine mini-big-bore!

Thanks mile high shooter.

with a little help from my friends comes to mind.

That is right... the littlest rifle big bore. (I consider the 375 to be a medium)

The genius is to shoot pre expanded 30 cal rifle weight 40 cal pistol bullets (135-200 grains) and let the meplat do all the work for black bear on down. I think 300 grain resized 405 win bullets would be awesome on game too. kinda like shooting a 41 mag on steroids if it can do 300 @ 1800fps like I think it could that would be cool. Expanding pistol bullets would be great for crows, varnmits and dangerous water jugs. I think the 200 grain hornady xtp @ 2300 would be the coolest.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

If you are going to build the gun on a .303 action, then I'd think the clear-cut choice might be a ".41/.303 Empire
Builder"....the ".41 EB" for short.

"Thanks for that" Alberta Canuck. "Of course - it is the 444 Marlin case for the 44 cal. But 41 is good! I had never heard of the 41/303 EB before. (I have decided to stay with 303 Brit as the mother case - unless for some crazy and compelling reason a 45/70 becomes irresistable). Where might I find case and chamber dimensions?"

Afraid you'll have to make them up as you go along. I wasn't intending to mislead you, but apparently I have done so.for which I apologize. I just pulled the name out of thin air, figuring we could call whatever you invent by that moniker. I think I would start with something about .015" or.020" shorter than the standard .303 (to allow for the bigger bullets). then I'd open it up, stuff in a bullet I would want to use, (and which would fit the magazine) and then go about getting a chamber cut to match. If you're gonna be making your own reamers (as I recall you intend), that's no big trick.
--------------------------------------



"Interesting - my Speer manual gives the case base dimensions as .457 for the Krag and .455 for the 303 Brit. They give the Brit rim diameter as slightly smaller than the Krag. Mmmm... so if I wanted a longer neck for loading cast in my 303 Brit I could get hold of some Krag cases and modify the neck area of my chamber slightly."

Just a caution. Obviously my actual cases do NOT match Speer's figures. I have found fairly often in the past that American documentation of British cartridges is in error...or if not actually in error, let's just say "markedly different" from my ammo or rifles which I bought in Britain, where they were made.

The best way in many instances is to do what we did today. Just go measure some of yours and adjust as will work best.

Best wishes...gotta go hit the hay.

quote:

Afraid you'll have to make them up as you go along. I wasn't intending to mislead you,

That's OK. I wasn't fully awake at the time! But I like the idea and the name sounds just fine too. (This one would be intended as a cast bullet shooter, so.... Mmmm....)

Found out that 303 Savage brass could be had to the length of 2.2" and .438" but not cheap. That said this Idea is now a tad different but still pretty neet imho.