I have this little tickle in my brain once in a while about making a rimless -06 based cartride duplicate 444 Marlin ballistics in a bolt action. Don't laugh yet...

...the idea went like this:

-Low pressure for small ring and old large ring Mausers like the 1908 Brazillian in my safe
-Big bore with the attendant advantages
-Ready reloading data by matching case capacity with 444 Marlin
-Cheap to reload with .44 mag bullets
-Lots of choices with 44 mag bore popularity
-Effective short-medium range for deer and pigs in S. Texas Brush
-Easy neck up from 35 Whelen (or .358 Win if using a shorter case)

Okay, now you can laugh.

Anyway, the ultimate question for me is will an -06 (or maybe .308) case with body taper reduced to minimum have enough left for headspace?

Anyone ever done this? The biggest bore on the -06 case I can find mention of is the 400 Whelen.

Take a look at
http://www.z-hat.com/
http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm

looks like about the best you can do is .411 even if you straighten out the case a bit. I discussed going to 416 with Fred at Z-hat and he said there just wasn't enough to headspace on. Here is a good article on the 400 W:
http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

I'm partial to the 375 hawk myself. I'm silly enough to have two - one in a blr and the other in a Win 1895. These two are for fun. Also have a 358 hawk in a mauser that gets used.

I believe Ken Howell did this once.

The "problem" is that the only way to headspace is off the case mouth (a la .45 ACP) and not the shoulder.

I'll take a look in the Wildcat Cartridges tonite.

MM

quote:

Originally posted by MuskegMan:
I believe Ken Howell did this once.

The "problem" is that the only way to headspace is off the case mouth (a la .45 ACP) and not the shoulder.

I'll take a look in the Wildcat Cartridges tonite.

MM

Exactly and as far as I can tell, there's no reason to not do this. I see no reason to not load a .416 bullet in this case if one is careful about controlling the overall length of the case and not chamfering the case mouth OD beyond removing the burr.

I built one several years ago using my own wildcat 280 case. I have a little less taper than the hawk. I used a 416 barrel and it had enough to headspace on. Gave it to a friend and it now lives in Alaska.

I did have to use the bullet to headspace during fireforming. The case at the shoulder is .46" on the neck is .44" The 40deg shoulder stops the case just fine.

So a .429 bore would require the headspacing to be on the mouth??? I'm not afraid of that. The other idea I had was to take the occasional .45ACP Mauser conversions I see floating around and open it up to 45 Win Mag.

.416 doesn't get me where I want to be...into .429 land with it's attendant bullet selection for the velocity range of this cartridge. I'm not looking to push a .416-06 enough to expand most common (sic) .416 bullets! That's sorta against the principle of the whole exercise...

using a .429 bullet would leave the -06 case almost straight with no taper at all....I suppose it could be done. I'd plan on turning the case necks too.

I believe the folks at Hawk make brass for about this type. Nice if you could get standard non necked .30-06 brass.

Also look at the 9.3 X 62 brass.

AHR also sells 06 style basic brass. I believe theirs is 2.6" After adding the difference between .429 and .416 to my neck it is still slighly less than the dia at my shoulder. Mine extracted fine.

Not exactly what you were asking, but I recalled reading about a wildcat belted mag of .429" in an old obscure Alaskan hunting book. What was interesting was the guy didn't use any custom chambering reamers or dies. As I recall, he used a 300 H&H reamer for the body, and then cut in a throat sepperately. I think he just used 44 mag dies to neck size the brass.

Since there really isn't any cost savings in the -06 brass vs belted basic brass, I'd suggest looking at that route, no worries about headspace.

The other option would be .284 win brass, it has the same dia rim as the -06 case, so you don't need to open up the bolt face, and the case head is some .030" larger in dia than an -06, so if an -06 can produce a sufficient shoulder with a .411" bullet, a .429" bullet will be fine on the larger dia case.

The one sticking thing is always custom reamers and dies, spendy enough to pretty much buy a spanking new 444 lever gun.

Hmmmm, .284 case up to .429, that would leave a shoulder....but:

The extreme thought was that a .444 Marlin sizing die would work...no custom dies. .473 casehead...no expense for bolt face work. Trim the -06 case to .444 length and run it through...ream if necessary and away you go. Nice and cheap.

If I move to a belted case and accept the bolt work and cost, it opens up a bunch of possibilities...all involving more $$$ than I want to spend, but the .284 option might be the way to go...if feed rail mods are not required.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
using a .429 bullet would leave the -06 case almost straight with no taper at all....I suppose it could be done. I'd plan on turning the case necks too.

I believe the folks at Hawk make brass for about this type. Nice if you could get standard non necked .30-06 brass.

Also look at the 9.3 X 62 brass.

Try using the 9.3x64 case blow out to .416 diameter it makes a do-able shell case

Using existing dies and reamers is always the challenge There are a few gunsmiths that actually understand creative designs and trying to use stuff that is already out there. Mike Bellm is one in paticular.

Honestly I'd just say stick with a 35 whelen. You get to shoot all the 357 pistol bullets for cheap and fun plinking, and with a cast 280-300 gr pill, me thinks it would do anything the 444 would do, maybe even better. If you can luck into a lyman 358009 mold, you are set. I did, and it is as good as all it's fans say.

It's gotta work. I'm looking at Nosler #5 and the cartridge sketches therin. The 444 case is .453 at the mouth and 2.225" long. The .280 AI is .450 at the shoulder (2.090"). Even if it were shortened a bit, slightly higher pressures would still be relatively low for a bolt action and give equal performance. Dunno about dies...might have to shave the .444 die.

35 Wheelen...250 grain spitzer at 2500 vs. .444 250 grain partition HP at 2300. The Wheelen would probably feed better too.

Hmmmm...now you done got me to thinking.

some more to think about.....if you decide to headspoace on the mouth of the case then you can't crimp the case to the bullet. This thing will definitely generate some recoil and the rounds in the magazine will have a lot of bullet set back.

Is a single shot in the cards?

Ken Howell's book Custom Cartridges lists it as the .444 Marlin Rimless (aka .425 Rimless Express.) Basically, a .30-06 basic case trimmed to 2.225" (same length as the .444) Headspaces on the mouth just like a .30 Carbine.

It's envisioned as a Mauser conversion, so it wouldn't be a single shot at first.

.444Marlin Rimless...exactly! Now since someone has apparently done it, did it work?

I will be doing another switch barrel on the 06 case and will stop at .416 at teh upper end. I don't forsee any headspacing issues provided the case mouth is trimmed to the correct length and is minimally chanfered inside and outside.

I wouldn't take it to Africa to hunt things that would hunt me but for timber Moose and elk it would be a great round with a lot of punch.

IMO
JOhn

quote:

Originally posted by CDH:
It's envisioned as a Mauser conversion, so it wouldn't be a single shot at first.

.444Marlin Rimless...exactly! Now since someone has apparently done it, did it work?

With a little clever machining I'd bet that the 444 marlin case head could be machined to work in the mauser action. All you do is to modify it slightly using a lathe.

The more I look at this I believe the .444-06 is doable but crimping is not an option.

Are you sitting down now?...the .240 weatherby case has a belt for headspacing..... and fits easily in a mauser action.
If the seeds grow.....

Another silly thought
using a .340 weatherby case machine the belt off and rebate the case head by maching a new one to .470 as the .30-06 size.
Cut to length about 2.30 inches OAL of the case and resize that to the .444 ( custom die.....Hornady makes it)...this leaves a shoulder of about .015/side and a lot more room than the .444 case. You might need some rail work to the mauser....not sure after you machine off the belt.
This might afford at 60,000 PSI a 300 grain bullet at about 2,500'/sec....an incredibly nasty thing to do to a deer.

I think 444 dies lack an expander. That low on a '06 case the brass will be thicker than at the mouth of a 444. You may need to inside-ream the casemouth to get the proper neck tension without bulging cases. That may keep recoil from beating the bullets deeper in the case.

The 10.75x57 Mannlicher was chambered in both the 1888 and the 1898 Mausers.

The 10.75x57 was the 8x57 expanded to .424 bullet diameter,it was introduced around 1900 and became obsolete within a few years.Measurements were base .468,shoulder .465,and the neck was .448.

It is believed that headspacing problems were responsible for it's being dropped from Mauser's line of chamberings.Feeding problems and the fact that it was underpowered for the game it was used on may have contributed to it becoming obsolete.

WC

I'd be happy with a .416-06; 'course it's not any better than the 400(Brown-)Whelen, and there's ;ess bullets for the speeds you'd expect.
If you want a .429" there's no stopping you. But make it a little smaller, and you can go much higher in pressure. I wouldn't love a headspaced-on-rim cartridge over 20k psi or something. And there's no getting sloppy with case lengths.
Go .408-16" with a shoulder and all of a sudden you're up in the 60kpsi realm. Just depends on what gets your rocks off.
(I must mention here, my idea for a .416-9.3x64mm, coming real close to the 416-338 without feeding fuss.)

quote:

Originally posted by CDH:
I have this little tickle in my brain once in a while about making a rimless -06 based cartride duplicate 444 Marlin ballistics in a bolt action. Don't laugh yet...

...the idea went like this:

-Low pressure for small ring and old large ring Mausers like the 1908 Brazillian in my safe
-Big bore with the attendant advantages
-Ready reloading data by matching case capacity with 444 Marlin
-Cheap to reload with .44 mag bullets
-Lots of choices with 44 mag bore popularity
-Effective short-medium range for deer and pigs in S. Texas Brush
-Easy neck up from 35 Whelen (or .358 Win if using a shorter case)

Okay, now you can laugh.

Anyway, the ultimate question for me is will an -06 (or maybe .308) case with body taper reduced to minimum have enough left for headspace?

Anyone ever done this? The biggest bore on the -06 case I can find mention of is the 400 Whelen.

I know the .400 Whelen headspace is O.K. if the shoulder diameter is opened to .454".

Originally posted by Bwana-be:

(I must mention here, my idea for a .416-9.3x64mm, coming real close to the 416-338 without feeding fuss.)[/QUOTE]

The 411 Hawk ... try using a 9.3x64 case instead of a 30/06.Case.. That means it should work in a BLR as well ..

Right. Didn't notice you'd already mentioned it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana-be:
Right. Didn't notice you'd already mentioned it.

I didn't you did ..

quote:

Quote : Bwana-be

quote:

I must mention here, my idea for a .416-9.3x64mm, coming real close to the 416-338 without feeding fuss

CHD, Did you look at the 411 Hawk? 300 grain bullets at 2,500 fps makes for an fantastic hog gun at short ranges. Looks like a baby 458.

Waayne von zoll shot one with Mike Brady (North Fork Bullets) and had to have one. He also listed the 411 Hawk in his new book under favorite cartridges. Mike did a lot of work on reloading the 411 and loads are listed on Z-Hat.com.

For cheap reloading, try cast lead bullets. When Bob Fulton first talked about doing this cartridge, he wanted to and did shoot a lot of cast bullets through his gun.

Another caliber/cartridge you could try is the 375 Scovill listed in the barnes book. Cheap reloads can be made with 235 speer bullets. Gamekings can be had for $19/50, which is not bad. The best would be 250 grain Northforks at 2700 fps.

This combination of bullet weight/dia. and speed makes an unforgetable impression on animals. Most go only two feet (straight down!). We have to move them over to see the blood trail.

Good luck with your choice.

Hey, so here's an idea: chamber a bolt action in 444! What's the big deal about rimless? The rim on that sucker is miniscule....

quote:

What's the big deal about rimless

It has enough rim to require bolt face work. No big deal, and that might be the best option in the long run, but if it's avoidable I would like to do so.

Dude. That's like another $25 to the project! Compared to possible headspace issues?

.429 would be about the biggest, and that would be the amt 44 automag.. I think i remember a 455? grizzly or something like that.. a .451 on a 1.1" '06 case

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana-be:
Hey, so here's an idea: chamber a bolt action in 444! What's the big deal about rimless? The rim on that sucker is miniscule....

that's exactly what I would do....if a Swift works , so will the 444....

quote:

Originally posted by rembo:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana-be:
Hey, so here's an idea: chamber a bolt action in 444! What's the big deal about rimless? The rim on that sucker is miniscule....

that's exactly what I would do....if a Swift works , so will the 444....

Guys, I am saying this in jest...

truer words have never been spoken by people who haven't tried to get a @#%@$^#@!#%#@^%^$ rimmed round to feed in a bolt gun.

This is why they have BELTS these days jeffe

You're right: I've never tried. And I've heard those 45/70 Mausers have plenty trouble to sway you from the project. But that rim is much more than the 444. What about a .432-7x65R?
The rim:casehead is smaller and the casehead is a bit fatter and longer.

BB,
Bil Ruger anda staff of engineers spent 18+ months trying to get the 22h to feed properly, as they assumed it would be a snap to get the 22h to work, if a 22LR worked so well in the 10-22 mag.. (ruger 77/22)...

18+ months LATE from proto type at shotshow to missed deadlines to 18months late...

Bill Ruger, a man that should rank up there with JM Browning and Garand.. took more than 18 months to get a @#$@^#@^$@#$%$@!#$ rimmed round to feed in a bolt gun.

I reckon you could start with a p14, enfield, or nagant, and work right from there..

but siamese mausers started with rimmed rounds, and it's a 40 F job (thanks for that phrase mike) to get there from here...

jeffe

Look at the 444 case specs....all it takes is a tad of machining on the case and it's a rimless and feeds like a 8 X 57.....

Just a thought, if you go to a case design that uses .411 bullets you can also use .410 bullets designed for the .41 Mag.

quote:

Look at the 444 case specs....all it takes is a tad of machining on the case and it's a rimless and feeds like a 8 X 57.....

Yeah, back to case forming. That 'tad of machining' X 100 cases becomes a chore! I was hoping to just neck up 35 Whelen cases and fireform. The 444 would probably require increasing the extracter groove and removing the rim...

Maybe I should stick to the .416-06 and get a cast bullet mold. I need another hobby (like bullet casting) like I need another hole in my head!

I wonder how hard it would be to get the old 45 Win Mag pistol round to work...seems like it wouldn't be any harder than the 45ACP conversions I see floating around...

Just how much case taper is minimum for reliable extraction from a 50kPSI round...???

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
I think 444 dies lack an expander. That low on a '06 case the brass will be thicker than at the mouth of a 444. You may need to inside-ream the casemouth to get the proper neck tension without bulging cases. That may keep recoil from beating the bullets deeper in the case.

No, my 444 die set is a 3-die set with an expander.

But FWIW the original 444Marlin WAS a 30-06 "basic" case left straight.

The rim...a 444Marlin is technically a semi-rimmed cartridge was added for easier extraction and headspacing.

AllanD

i like the idea of the premium barnes xpb and nosler partition hg bullets in the 411 hawk for deer rabbits ect going out around 2800 fps! and dont forget cheap flat nose hardcast 300 gr beartooth bullets spiting out at 2500 fps! but north fork bullets would be the best...now can we convince mr brady to make custom flat point solids??? that will do great...old school 404 jeffery ballistics in your 06 conversion

rabbits to elephants