Hi all...

Was thinking about the 404-284 improved for a nice lever action big bore cart rig combo idea in savage 99 or winchester model 88. Is there any reason these lever actions would not be good for this cart?

basicly blow out the body of the 284 win to 490 at the shoulder to give 20 thou shoulders with the 404 bullet.

I figure expand up to 375 then fire form the rest of the way. keep the same shoulder angle and position for a tad over .3" neck but blow out the body to accommodate the 404 .423" bullet.



Kinda like the 416 Aagaard but with a larger bullet and bullets more designed for lower functional impact velocities of 400 @ 2150.

I think looking at the new Newton Arms leverbolt made me think along this route.

Obviously can be done on a nice featherweight bolt action 308 size action for a nice "Stalking" rifle.

Any thoughts?

Should be good, same volume as my .425 Fossdal, maybe better suited in a lever action - I would not know, as lever's are NOT my cup of tea..

Yes... was thinking probably just shy of 70 grains capacity or identical to the 400 whelen or the uber cool 425 Fossdal in capacity and performance.

Short action old school 404 DG performance big bore and .470 boltface might fill a niche.

400 @ 2150 would be the max for this cat but that is ideal for the size and weigth of a "Stalking rig" that you can probably make under 7 lbs

Recoil Energy of 53 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 22 fps for that combo.

the 450 marlin is the killall of leverguns...

no, this is not a good idea, the 416x284 is a darn good idea..

dang, i just dont like the 404 caliber!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the 450 marlin is the killall of leverguns...

no, this is not a good idea, the 416x284 is a darn good idea..

dang, i just dont like the 404 caliber!

Yes, maybe, been done and yes, I know

The 450 marlin and 458 2" are great.

With the 88 and 99 or any bolt you can up the preasure over a Marlin levergun to in theory get 400 @ 2150.

The 416's functional impact velocities tend to be higher.

The 88 and 99 already have and feed the 470 boltface and feed the 284 case.

but its still a 404...

As a 404 (0.423") you have the Woodleigh 347gr FMJ and soft as a really nice compromise between speed and weight if you believe the 400gr is too heavy and loopy in trajectory. The McPherson line of 284 wildcats had puffed out shoulders in 416cal ... should be no reason a 423" couldn't be made to work.
Cheers...
Con

That is my thinking =)

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
As a 404 (0.423") you have the Woodleigh 347gr FMJ and soft as a really nice compromise between speed and weight if you believe the 400gr is too heavy and loopy in trajectory. The McPherson line of 284 wildcats had puffed out shoulders in 416cal ... should be no reason a 423" couldn't be made to work.
Cheers...
Con

404.. lever gun.. <barf>
but, hey, to make it worse, the blr can be had in stainless..

now, a stainless blr in 404/300wsm...
<barf>

i just can't warm up to a .423 or .424 bullet.. lever guns are fun, ISH, and stainless should be shotguns and pistols ...

LOL!

the 404 wsm has been done...

Yes it can be done on a BLR too.

I think a Savage 99 spitting out old school 404 performance is kinda neato.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
404.. lever gun.. <barf>
but, hey, to make it worse, the blr can be had in stainless..

now, a stainless blr in 404/300wsm...
<barf>

i just can't warm up to a .423 or .424 bullet.. lever guns are fun, ISH, and stainless should be shotguns and pistols ...

http://www.rifleshootermag.com...nition/wildcat_0612/

Seems we were thinking along the same lines...

As noted before, the .416-284 wildcat is possible, but it is better applied to the Ackley Improved version of this case. My series of .284 wildcats, developed for the Model 99 Savage, combines the Ackley case taper with the original .284 shoulder angle (35 degrees) instead of the steeper (40-degree) Ackley shoulder. The main advantage with my series of wildcats is use of the standard .284 headspace gauge. Compared to the 40-degree shoulder, difference in usable capacity is insignificant. By reducing body taper to Ackley's specification, regardless of neck size used, one increases usable case capacity about two grains, which seems worthwhile, particularly in bore sizes larger than 6mm.


It seems from this article that he did not do the 416 yet but suggested the blown out version for the 416. Jeffe....you can do a mini me 416 AR!!!

He also did it on the Savage 99!!!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Wildcatting the .284 Winchester
Long-range shooters and wildcatters have kept the .284 alive.
By M.L. McPherson


While experience in the benchrest field has led to the modern mantra "Short and fat is where it's at," this was not always the case.



Along about 1999, after considerable prompting by the late Roger Johnston and with technical advice from this author, Norma standardized the 6.5-284, which had been a wildcat for decades. Roger's epiphany is one of those revelations that, in retrospect, is quite obvious. Since so many wildcatters and long-range target shooters were using the .284 Winchester case as a basis for various wildcat chamberings, particularly the 6.5mm, why not standardize a factory version?



History of the .284 is quite frustrating to those who know it well. Winchester's goal, circa 1963, was parallel to its creation of the .300 WSM--a short-action chambering that essentially duplicates .300 Winchester Magnum ballistics. When Winchester introduced the .284, the intention was to create a short-action chambering that would essentially duplicate .270 Winchester ballistics. Despite what has been written to the contrary, Winchester was 100 percent successful in that endeavor; when compared to the .270, the .284 launched bullets of comparable weight slightly faster. Nevertheless, as soon as the newness wore off, several gunwriting pundits of the day set about to eradicate what was clearly a superior cartridge design.

We can speculate the reason thusly: Those writers were clearly of the bolt-action-elitist genre, and, as such, they could find no value in any short-action chambering. Proof of this stems from examination of some of their arguments. I recall one author who decried the .284 because it would not launch 175-grain spitzers as fast as the .270 would--if only one could get such bullets for the .270.
Meanwhile, despite such ill-founded badmouthing, the .284 hung on. While it has been occasionally factory chambered in various rifles, the chief reason for its survival has always been wildcatting. For those who do not feel that they need magnum energy levels, the .284 is a fine case for wildcatting to all neck sizes from 6mm to .416. While it has been necked to .22, the results were quite disappointing, due to very short barrel life. On the other end, beyond .375, shoulder width becomes insufficient for proper headspace control. At .416 it is quite helpful, and desirable, to reduce body taper to Ackley specification, which widens the shoulder about 33 percent.



The .284 and some of its wildcat offspring, left-to-right: 6mm-284, 6.5mm-284, .284 Winchester, .30-284, .338-284, .375-284.


The 6mm-284 is most easily created by necking down the 6.5mm-284 Norma case, which is a direct conversion. However, it is possible to neck down the .284 Winchester case. When combined with heavy (95-, 105- or 107-grain) VLD target bullets, this number produces spectacular long-range ballistics and has been used successfully in 1,000-yard target matches. However, a more likely application is long-range varminting. With slower-twist barrels and lighter bullets, the 6mm-284 is capable of spectacular kills at unusually long ranges. For example, with a 26-inch barrel, it easily launches 70-grain moly-plated Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets at 3,900 fps. With a well-built gun capable of launching this bullet with sub-1/4-MOA accuracy, very long-range hits on vermin are completely feasible.



Perhaps the best known of the .284 wildcats is the .25-284. This number duplicates .25-06 performance but in a shorter case with a better basic configuration. All else being equal, a shorter, fatter case is a straighter case, and it also produces superior internal ballistic consistency--these are the main reasons that short, fat cases now dominate the benchrest game.



By increasing bore size only 0.007 inch, we come to the now-standard (factory-loaded) 6.5-284 Norma. With availability of useful bullets ranging from 85 grains to 160 grains, the 6.5-284 has a lot to offer varminters, big-game hunters and long-range target shooters. Given a 26-inch tube, this number easily launches moly-plated 142-grain Sierra MatchKings at 3,150 fps. Obviously, similar-weight hunting bullets at this velocity are capable for most North American hunting.



The next-likely bore size is .30 caliber. Here we have a short-action cartridge that essentially duplicates .30-06 performance with medium-weight bullets. Moreover, when chambered in a long-action rifle, it can significantly exceed .30-06 performance with bullets heavier than about 165 grains.



When we jump to .338 bore size, things get very interesting. Bullet selection is large, and, with moderate-weight bullets, this wildcat makes one of the better elk chamberings for those who cannot tolerate significant recoil. It will launch 225-grain bullets at nearly 2,700 fps and is therefore capable of delivering significant energy to targets out to about 300 yards with no sight correction when a 225-yard zero is applied.



The .35-caliber version duplicates the .35 Whelen but again in a short-action case. To me, a far more interesting version is the .375-284. With a wide selection of good bullets, this is a serious dangerous-game alternative. Chambered in a long-action rifle, it comes within a few hundred fps of the .375 H&H but generates far less recoil due to using a much smaller propellant charge.



As noted before, the .416-284 wildcat is possible, but it is better applied to the Ackley Improved version of this case. My series of .284 wildcats, developed for the Model 99 Savage, combines the Ackley case taper with the original .284 shoulder angle (35 degrees) instead of the steeper (40-degree) Ackley shoulder. The main advantage with my series of wildcats is use of the standard .284 headspace gauge. Compared to the 40-degree shoulder, difference in usable capacity is insignificant. By reducing body taper to Ackley's specification, regardless of neck size used, one increases usable case capacity about two grains, which seems worthwhile, particularly in bore sizes larger than 6mm.



The single complaint against the .284 is the rebated rim. In some types of rifles, this can cause a bit of difficulty for the gunsmith. It makes proper magazine lip configuration a bit more critical--poorly designed feed lips can result in the bolt overriding the next round, rather than picking it up. While a real consideration, it is the trade-off for allowing use of a 0.50-inch-diameter case with the conventional 0.47-inch-diameter bolt face. Moreover, this is not a serious problem when the gunsmith knows what he is doing.



Since the .284 is one of my all-time favorite factory cartridges, it does my heart good to see it regaining popularity through standardization of the 6.5mm version by Norma. It is worth noting that the most recent batch of Norma 6.5-284 cases that I have tested is particularly good as to concentricity and mass consistency.



As a related aside, the .376 Steyr (cases available from Hornady) has approximately the same base diameter as the .284 but is longer and has a conventional rim. When converted to the Ackley Improved configuration, capacity of this number is essentially identical to the conventional belted magnum, but it loads into and feeds out of a magazine far more smoothly.

Was thinking this is like the 10.75x68 short but MORE shoulder and a 470 rim.