The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Wildcats And Their Development Let's design the perfect wildcat for "MULE" deer sized animals. nothing biggerGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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A 35-30 RAR seems to fit the bill too. Should be a good round and good for the Indiana laws for deer hunting. should be 45 grains capacity for 35 rem+ performance on a micro action. Not as powerful as the 358 WSSM but could be a happy middle ground and could use 284 brass too. What a 35-30RAR would look like 35-30 RAR, 30 RAR, 450 Bushmaster, 223 Could also make a rimmed case using 475 Maximum brass.  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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6.5 Grendel, 129 gr Hornady 6.5mm bullet, 2500 fps muzzel vel, gives the following data: I tried to insert a table of data, but it didn't space right. Hope you can read it. The key numbers are - sighted in for zero at 150 yds -- 1790 ft lbs at muzzel -- 1308 ft lbs at 225 yds -- 2137 fps at 225 yds. -- rise above zero is 1.49" at 75 yds -- drop below zero is -3.12 at 200 yds. Range Velocity Impact Drop Energy 0 2500 -0.5 0 1790 25 2455 0.53 0.24 1726 50 2414 1.2 0.84 1669 75 2373 1.49 1.81 1613 100 2332 1.4 3.17 1558 125 2292 0.91 4.93 1505 150 2253 0 7.11 1454 175 2214 -1.34 9.72 1404 200 2175 -3.12 12.77 1355 225 2137 -5.37 16.28 1308 Bingo. I know it's not a wildcat, but I couldn't help myself - just had to post it, since I'm not going to design a wildcat when this fine factory cartridge is available. Another thing, it's possible to get even better ballistics out of this little cartridge. The Hornady 129 gr 6.5 bullet isn't the one with the best BC. Perhaps the Berger, etc. Hornady shows 2600 fps with their 123 gr factory load. I'm also presuming a bolt action, rather than the AR platform, but it may not make a difference. However, I'm sure barrel length will make a difference, and should be close to 23"-24" IMO, to squeeze best performance. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kabluewy: 6.5 Grendel, 129 gr Hornady 6.5mm bullet, 2500 fps muzzel vel, gives the following data: Bingo. I know it's not a wildcat, but I couldn't help myself - just had to post it, since I'm not going to design a wildcat when this fine factory cartridge is available. KB[/QUOTE Yhat is my thought to KB. Sometimes the best cartridge has already been designed, and this one is a cracker. After the 7x57 of course. Von Gruff. | |||
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 In giving this some thought ,I find there is a lot of truth in what you say.  Makes me wonder why anyone even would consider building a wildcat.  Along with this thought maybe we should just get rid of the AR wildcat forum.   wildcatting!  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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bartsche, Wildcatting for the sake of wildcatting is one thing, and worthy for those who must think that way. I have done wildcats, just because, but I consider them superfluous. Sorry if I stepped on your toes, but frankly it was the Grindel that did the stepping.  If you want a wildcat, then call it the 6.5/220 Russian, or 6PPC/6.5 or 7.62x39/6.5 IMP, then sneek out and buy factory brass and factory dies, and reamer with SAAMI specs. We won't say anything - promise.  One silly ass cartridge that I recommend you take a look at is the 6.8 SPC. There's a cartridge that could use some help from a wildcatter. Neck it down to 6.5, and you may have something worthwhile there. Neck it up to 35 - likewise - and you can call it the 30 Rem/6.8 SPC/35 Remington, a name which ought to satisy any wildcatter.  Then finding a nice ready-to-fit-with-little-mods action is your next challange. Maybe a Ruger MKII in 7.62x39 could be opened up a bit. After all the mods, custom barrel, dies, reamer, brass, etc. the whole rig could be worth at least 50% of the factory Ruger - a wildcatter's dream. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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22 Hornet, and learn how to hunt close. Stalk to within 50 yds (pretend that is a bow in your hands) and shoot them just under the ear hole. Rich | |||
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25-204 Ruger 100gr Partition at 2800fps. Been shooting one for about 5yr and it works pretty good. It is a ballistic clone of the 257 Kimber without any fireforming.  Far right loaded with 85gr NBT at 3000fps  It works well 375win After the first shot the rest are just noise | |||
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 No foul taken and the toes aren't sore at all.Was just   rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Sounds like my dad. That technique made them quickly dead. (Though he would range out to about 100yds, most were 50 to 75, that I recall.) Loved the Hornet, cared only for the meat , not a horn hunter. DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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Of interesting note is the 270 or 6.8 version of the 222 Rem Mag or 204 Ruger would have the same capacity as the 6.8 SPC. Maybe this could be a good 6.8 SPC alternative. The question would be how well it could work with 223 mags. shoot 85 grains @ 3,000 fps, 100 grain 6.8 bullets @ 2800 and 115's @ 2600 130's @ 2400 and 180's could make a good subsonic bullet. 130's even @ 2,100 could handle a mule deer so with 130 grain bullets this could be a good 200 yard mule deer cart and 115's a 300 yard cart. Maybe swap the barrel from a 223 AR15 and shoot a 270-204 to shoot with more oomph. Same rim/casehead. Hmmmmm... What to name it? 270-204? Load to the max OAL of 2.3"  This is what the 270-204 would look like. left 270-204 on the right the 204 Ruger  These 85 grain bullets @ 3,000 fps would be sweet!  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I was wondering when someone would come up with a TSX. Isn't the 6.8 a shortened 30 or 35 rem case? Shortened to fit an AR magazine? if so why not leave the case just a hair longer for just a little more oomf at 225 yards. I like the 6.8 necked down to 25 idea also but with a slightly longer case. DW | |||
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30 --rem case DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
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If you take off the tip you should be able to use the second canalure for the same OAL. With the 160 grain 338 TTSX it would seem that 338-6.5 Grendel AKA 338 Thor would be a deer killer as well as a 338 BR. 338 TTSX on the bottom row.  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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YUP IT WORKED LIKE A CHARM WHEN WE BUILT THE FIRST ONE TWO YEARS AGO. WENT WITH THE STRAIGHT 223 CASE IN THE END BUT THE GRENDAL CASE ALL THE WAY TO 35 WAS A NICE LITTLE PLATFORM. AND THE 160 TTSX IS THE GREATEST THING EVER. VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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What velocity did you get? did you neck up the 338 Grendel case? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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22LR 22 middlestead 6mm rem 257 roberts 6.5 swede 7x64 308 8x57 338winmag 348 win 358win 376 steyr 416 AR 404 jeffry 458 AR 470 AR 475#2 500 ar 550 Express 577 ne 600 OK 700 DA 12 gafh opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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The last few might not leave much left to eat  
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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If you take out the tip you could crimp on the second groove and have more usable case capacity.
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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GOOD IDEA. thanks VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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No prob. Hey so did you make a 338-6.5 Gren? If so what performance did you see? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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yes made one for another guy burned a pile of h 110 got about 2500 but sent it on its way before i got to kill anything with it I was fully invested in a straight case 223 338 if I had seen the grendal case first I would have gone that way it is a better case for this but 2350 on a 160 xfb . but having to do it without a shoulder was a pain. I made dummies for 7mm and 35 but a 160 gr x in 338 seems just right for this purpose. VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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Probably the easiest way to go is re stamp 7.62x39 into 8.62x39 since the 338 in MM is 8.59mm. Blow out the shoulders and maybe keep the same shoulder angle. Not much capacity gain for steepening but can be done. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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bill alexander will bend over backward to help you with the brass. he gave me 20 pieces no charge to set up the first dummies we made also you can use a grendal reamer and 338 neck reamer. I think he had some un stamped brass it is made by lapua better webb and already blown out for the grendal simple one pass to 7 one pas to 8 to neck up. VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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Well I wanted to find out how folks think when "designing" wildcats!  What an eye opener this was for the most part.  Maybe I'm playing in the wrong sand box. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Everyone has a dif perspective on what makes a good wildcat Bartsche... What do you think of the 17 zipper? 17-219 zipper AKA 17 Zipper Would have the same capacity as the 204 Ruger but cheap rimmed brass. That would be a sweet sexy stinger Here is the 22 version  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I'm not much of a wildcatter but I have read about someone lengthening the neck on 308 parent case by puahing the shoulder back, slightly improving or reducing the body taper and using a 30 degree shoulder angle. Use those changes in either .25 or 6.5, or neck up to 8mm. DW | |||
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can you update your signature to do it THEN talk about it, rather than THAN talk about it? deer carts? good lord, is there POSSIBLLY a more boring cartridge discussion? 250 savage, move on ... 30-06.. move on... 500 whizbang, they all die ... minimum of recoil? what the HE11 does that mean? opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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You are loosing me in the Twilight Zone on this one, or are you just calling me down for spelling? When you're right though you're right, My spelling ain't that grate!Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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your signature says --
I sent you a PM once about it a couple years ago ... on the recoil, you set that as a criteria ... not one I can understand ... the 22LR's (when legal) have killed a ton of deer .. and there's not much less recoil than that opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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 really don't want to engage in a pissing contest over an opinion I totally do not understand. are you saying recoil should not be a factor when either designing a cartridge or selecting a fire arm? I guess I'll just file that in my serious thought section for later evaluation.NOT!!  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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you asked for minimum recoil ..that's "recoil shouldn't be a concern" is it? its flat out a stating that you want MINIMAL recoil .. hell, build a 20# 243 and get over it.. there's MINIMAL recoil. Some guys act like jackasses when they are called on out bad thinking, trying to make the other extreme seem like the preference of the other guy. the only thing that behavoir does is make the pointer look like a sitter, if you get my drift. Recoil IS always a condsidertation, otherwise i'd be carrying and shooting a 5# 550 .. but i am neither stupid nor a sissy, and the term "minimal recoil" is irrelevent ... power down range requires at least a modicom of recoil... your stating that means that you must feel recoil is not required .. and i feel recoil starts about at a light weight 375 ... in a 9# 250 savage/257roberts/25-06 there is no appreciable recoil. if you want less than that, the 224 TTH is minimal recoil am i saying recoil isn't a factor? as long as its under 40#, I don't care, and under 20#, its neglidgable. your little alien ship because you are recoil senstive isn't funny, and it does point back twoards yourself. my little "on, i don't want to shoot a 22mag" wife shoots a 708 in a very light gun.. better than moa, and its better than "minimal" recoil .. suck it up.. anything less than 20# is for kids opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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What did he say, and where is it coming from? Please forget designing a wildcat cartrdge adequate for mule deer with minimum recoil.Enjoy your life, Jeff! rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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270-08 with 140 grn bullets Any action Absolute minimum recoil( based on cartridge only): 140 grn bullet at 2725 or so Maximum hunting range 225 yds: No problem minimum energy 1100 ft.lbs.at 225 yds: No problem minimum trim of parent case.( length and neck turning): Nothing but necking it down. Parent case readily available in large quantity: Can't get more plentiful than .308 win Easily full length sized: Yep Fire forming ALMOST non existant: Yep just necking down. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I think that is called the 270 souper. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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The answer is still a 25-284... 25-06 velocities in a short action. Rich DRSS | |||
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no, the answer is 250 sav, if you give a rat's about recoil .. 257 bob if you like neat rounds, and the pedestrian 270 if you want to get ammo at walmart . AGAIN, Roger, my point is that you useless limited the design, but expected communication about the MOST crowded area of wildcating .. but the minmal recoil is just shite ... WHO CARES about recoil? 8 weeks after have AC level 5 surgery, I was shooting my 7x62 in an 8# rifle .. recoil is a mental FICTION under 70-80 lBS opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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 Nice approach, Mike! I don't have the info on it any more but was that the .270 Titus? Jump in any one who knows. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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 ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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25-06 in a short action is that not 25 wssm? a factory load. VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Wildcats And Their Development Let's design the perfect wildcat for "MULE" deer sized animals. nothing bigger
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