I was looking on MidwayUSA.com for availability of dies for 22 Middlested and discovered there a bunch of different .22 cal wildcats based on the .243/.308 case.

22-243 Middlested
22 Cheetah Mark 1 40 deg, shoulder
22 Cheetah Mark 2 28-Degree Shoulder
22-243 Winchester
22-308 Winchester
22-243 Winchester Ackley Improved 40-Degree Shoulder (Clymer)
22-243 Winchester Ackley Improved 40-Degree Shoulder (JGS)
(probably more. . . )

I've never heard of most of these before. I suspect they are all similar in performance, but if you were looking to get into one, which one would it be?
Is there a good source of info on these "22-08 cats" somewhere?

I'm surprised no one has commented. Since a 243 is a necked down 308 I can see no reason to go through the extra steps. The 243 case already has pretty much the taper of an AI anyway. The difference's between the shoulders might make something good to argue about over a drink around the campfire but I seriously doubt you would be able to tell a difference between one and the next. Velocities will vary more between rifles than between these cases.

For my dollar if I wanted a 22 on a 243 case I would be simple and go 22-243. If I wanted accuracy I would look to the 22BR or 22PPC. If I wanted a shorter case and more capacity I would look to something like the 224Clark.

If you really wanted to burn powder for small gains look to the 22-284 or 22-06.

I agree with ramrod - there's not a nickle's worth of difference between all of those that you listed. The CHeetah was designed around the Remington URBR brass that had a SR primer but is just like all the rest otherwise.

I'd go with whichever one you can build the most economically as far as brass, dies, reamers, etc.

In the long run it would be hard to do any better than something like a 22 Dasher, 22 BR, or 22 PPC. They have most of the advantages and few disadvantages.

JMHO

Ray

on the other hand...

I have a 22-284 that is Thor's Hammer. I bought two Savage model 12's, both single shot, in 223. They come with a 1:9 twist. Shot both to see which one was more accurate. Ran the reamer in that one, and switched to a 308 bolt head. Think of the Nosler Competition 80gr bullet at 3500fps. With a good scope and a rangefinder and a drop chart, you can do amazing things well past 500 yards.

The kicker here is: are you shooting competition or live varmint hunting? The smaller cases work well at known yardages, because nobody cares what the trajectory is and you know the exact distances. Out here in the west, Rockchucks and Prairie Dogs do not come with yardage markers next to their den holes and a set firing line. It's like a real Sniper's Game. Find the target, range him, and engage him...within a few seconds most of the time.

With regard to your "22-08's" at the same pressure, they will fall into a 100fps range.


Good luck, and good shooting.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

22BR

Thanks guys
My thoughts were this would be a good/fun rig for both, tossing heavy bullets at paper targets at long ranges, and popping varmints with it. A fast rate of twist like 1 in 7 - 1 in 9 was what I had in mind.

I enjoy competitive shooting, but I’m not hard-core. Most the matches I shoot in are just sporting rifle matches these days. (But this rig would definitely be used for longer range shotting than that)

I thought about going to a bigger case than the 308/243, but figured the “diminishing returns†probably outweighed the gains at that point. And besides I have an ample supply of once fired Match 7.62 X 51 brass from my Navy shooting team days that I have a need to find something to do with, and I figured necking it down to .224 might be a fun way to go. I know the Mil. Brass has less capacity than other brass due to its thicker walls, but it would still outdo a .220 Swift I’m betting :-)

With the popularity of .20 cal bullets on the rise maybe a .20-08 is the way to go, especially if we could just get someone to build some heavier .204 bullets with better ballistic coefficients.

22-6.5 Creedmoor

I have the Middlestead version. Pushes 50 gr bullets out a 4000 fps from a 27" barrel Makes one heck of a LR varmint gun - dan

quote:

Originally posted by dan belisle:
I have the Middlestead version. Pushes 50 gr bullets out a 4000 fps from a 27" barrel Makes one heck of a LR varmint gun - dan

Any idea what it will do with 69, 77, 80, and 90 gn bullets? I was figuring with the extra case capacity, heavy bullets is where it would really shine. . .

22/243 Middlested would be my choice.
3400fps with an 80 with a 26" barrel(9 twist).
3650 with a 75 A-max 9twist 30" barrel.

I have been in the same pursuit for info on this myself.
I have read that the strait 22-243 was simply a necked down 243 case, with no other changes.
I was lookig for a non-fireformed version, and thought this was it, but I found on stevespages that the 22-243 drawing shows a new 30 degree shoulder andle?
Is this rite?
Can anyone steer in the rite direction, I would rather not fireform, running the case through a full length die appeals to me more, even if it means losing a few fps.
Cdog.

I 'invented' a .224" magnum that would shoot the varmint bullets yet maybe take deer well. Some guy in Utah made up 88 gr .224" 'partitions' for me and I spent my money and time getting a reamer made up and then burning out a barrel working up loads.

In summary the rifle itself was kind of heavy for deer yet it still only made a smallish cavity. On the other hand it was ok for pests.

When the 55's and 58's came out for the 243 that QT .224" was made 100% obsolete and second rate.

Cdog-
The Middlested features a 30 degree shoulder and a longer neck (.310) than a straight 22/243 which will have a 20 degree shoulder and a approximently a one caliber long neck (.224).
The Middlested will be 98% formed in the FL resizing die, velocity and accuracy will be very acceptable for hunting use during the first fire stage. The only other MAJOR difference is the Middlested calls for a .256 neck which requires either inside neck reaming or outside turning. I inside neck ream all the cases I make for customers as this eliminates the dreaded "donut" that develops in time when you neck brass down. As for barrel life- if you are a person who likes to sit at the bench and shoot paper or are building this rifle for praire dog shooting and just can't say NO to sending the next round downrange barrel life will be short. I have built 45 rifles in 22-243 Middlested mostly for coyote hunters. Barrels will last somewhere between 2000-2500 rounds before accuracy drops below acceptable levels to hit that 400 yard coyote. The flip side is I had one shooter trash his first barrel in 400 rounds shooting prairie dogs because he just couldn't quit shooting, he finally decided it was too hot when he touched the barrel and burnt his finger to the point of a blister. Rate of fire is the number one cause of ruining a barrel and no caliber is immune to an overly enthusiastic rate of fire. Keep the barrel clean and cool and any variation of the 22/243 will provide you with a great varmint rifle.

Duane, thanks a bunch for that great reply!
I had no idea the case was almost completely formed in the full length process.
I simply did not want to cut barrel life down further simply making brass.
This will also be my first wildcat, so I wanted it simple.
The brass work does not bother me, as the long dark winter nites offer plenty of time.
The dies will be much cheaper, and load data much easier to come by!
Thanks again, you have been very helpfull!
Cdog.

I almost forgot, I do have an outside neck turner(handheld forster), in what way would you change procedure to steer clear of the donut as opposed to neck reaming, or should I aquire a case trimmer with reamer attachment?
Thanks again,
Cdog.

I've been playing with the idea of getting a large capacity 22 made to handle LDV and just plain heavy 22. cal. bullets just for shooting at long distance. Fast twist 22-250. .224x.308 and .224x6mm have been my focus.

I am saying to myself at this point in time that whatever I can do with the first 2, can be accomplished with the .224X6mm at a lower (reduced) pressure.Considerations and decisions.

Picked up 3 Stevens 200s yesterday for barrel swapping. The 7mm-08 will definitely go. roger

Cdog,
If you turn the neck to the shoulder it might take some time before the donut appears and it might not even become an issue with the long neck. You could always inside ream for the donut afterwards. If you build a Middlested send an e-mail and I can help with some data.
Roger- a 224 Clark (a version of a 22/6mm) is a Long version of the Middlested and is an excellent choice for the 75-90 gr bullets.


www.duanesguns.com

Bartsche, I estimate that the .22/6mm should have the capacity to drive the 90 grain JLK and Berger VLD bullets to the velocity limits that their J4 jackets would allow.

The .224 Clark has a capacity of about 62.3 to 63.8 grains depending on the batch of brass, which is about 6.5 grains more than the necked down Winchester .257 Roberts brass that I use for fireforming to the .224Clark.

DuaneinND is correct about the donuts. Prior to fireforming, I turn the necks to at least the bottom of the neck, and if possible a tad beyond into the shoulder. I have fired my current batch of .224 Clark brass about 6 times, and there is no sign as yet of a donut appearing. It was a problem for a while in my first .224 Clark which I built back in 1988.

I designed my current .224 Clark (Rem700,Krieger 26 inch 6.5 twist barrel) to use the heavy 100 and 105 grain ULD bullets.

Unfortunately, both the 100 grain Wildcat ULD, and 105 grain Little HPBT (both built on the J4 jacket) disintegrated at about 2,700 - 2,800 fps. (310,000 rpm)

Thankfully Garry Little (Oz custom bulletmaker) built me some 100 - 110 grain bullets that were made on .257 and .277 cal jackets and they remained intact.

I am currently using some of his 100 grain HPBT bullets, which are built on a .257 cal jacket and have a soldered core. I have fired about 130 shots with these, and obtained good accuracy at velocities up to about 3,220 fps. (56.5/H870)

Although I do have some Sierra 90 grain MK's, I have not yet tried them. Sierra advised they were designed for .223 velocities, so I have little hope that they will hold together in my .224 Clark.

I tried the 80 grain Sierra Mk, and started at 55.0/H870 and worked up, and it came apart violently at 58.0/H870, which I estimated was about 2.0 grains below maximum pressure.

The difficulty when using heavy for calibre bullets is to ascertain what velocity their jackets will allow, and then order a barrel with the appropriate twist, and choose a case size that will allow you to reach the velocity limits of the bullet. Hope the above is of some interest. Brian.

Duane, thanks again for your replies.
I was doing some looking through some older varmint hunter magazines i have.
Rifle #12 ring a bell to you??
I would say you have had more than a little expeience with the middlested,lol??
When I get all my stupid questions gathered up, I will surely email you, thanks again,
Cdog.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DuaneinND:
Cdog,Bartsche, I estimate that the .22/6mm should have the capacity to drive the 90 grain JLK and Berger VLD bullets to the velocity limits that their J4 jackets would allow.

Roger- a 224 Clark (a version of a 22/6mm) is a Long version of the Middlested and is an excellent choice for the 75-90 gr bullets.

Thank you gentlemen! roger

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

The Middlested and 224 Clark both sound pretty interesting . . .

quote:

Any idea what it will do with 69, 77, 80, and 90 gn bullets? I was figuring with the extra case capacity, heavy bullets is where it would really shine. . .

Sorry, mine has a 1-14 twist, won't stabilize the heavier bullets. When I finally re-barrel it, I will go with a tight twist (or maybe one of Ron Smith's gain twist barrels, I have these on a few other rifles and they work great). As mentioned, this is not a caliber for high volume shooting. Great coyote gun though. - dan