I have been shooting and hunting for going on 50+ years. And I have never understood the fascination with wildcats. Must be just the idea of trying to make something good a bit worse. Wildcatter Joe Bob finds himself in Kafue National Park in Zambia, and when opening his luggage discovers that his boxes of 7.38976 x 9.578 is not there. Now what?

I guess it's like trying to make a blind man understand colors.

Anyway,your guide is probably out of .375H&H and .458WinMag that day to...and if not, you discover that you left the bolt back home in Winnipeg...........

Bill
actually, you DO understand it... unless you just have exactly the same rifle you started with, and ONLY that rifle...
I mean, why have a 30-06 when the 30-40 works so well.. then REALLY, why did we need ANY of the 300mags when the 8x57 works so well.. and why bother making an 8x57 when the 7x57 is perfect, and why did we even thing about a primer based cartridge when needle guns worked just fine... and what was WRONG with muzzle loading rifles, and who needed the mini ball to make them more effective... speaking of which, why do you need rifling in a muzzle loader rifle? shesh, come on, is it REALLY important? ....... (40 comments not typed)... and the rock? shesh, why do you need a ROCK? when the jaw bone of an ass works so well....fists? don't even get me started.. theree's no reason for a fist when an open hand slap works so well ... (100 more unspoken comments) ... multicellular organisms? now, if they are so superior why are the single cells creatures still so wide spread... cells? who needs em, when virus works so well...

in other words, bill, every, i repeat EVERY cartridge was a wildcat at one point or another, and unless you are a virus, you support it, even if yo udon't understand it

quote:

Originally posted by billinthewild:
I have been shooting and hunting for going on 50+ years. And I have never understood the fascination with wildcats. Must be just the idea of trying to make something good a bit worse.

I knew I was screwing up! Should not have wildcated! Where were you with your sage advice 50 years ago when I needed you . You're doing fine. Keep diggen Bill in the wind. roger

Bill

I'm basically a shooter but I also dabble in collecting wildcat cartridges. I've designed a few myself which I still shoot. If there's one thing I have learned from my collecting interest it's what Jeffe said, " . . .EVERY cartridge was a wildcat at one point or another. . ."

We're only a few miles apart. Maybe we can get together sometime and I can show you some of my collection. I'll bet I can even convert you to the dark side.

Ray

Bill I am not suggesting that wildcatting is for everyone ,because it is not. But people wildcat for a number of reasons.
Reason # 1 Ammunition not availible The most common situation of the would have been after WWII. Many fine German Mausers were brought back by returning GIs. Most were chambered in 8x57 and ammo was not readily availble. 06 brass was readily availible and it was a simple matter of running a chamber reamer in and creating the 8mm-06. A very good wildcat.
Reason # 2 Need for another cartridge Early varmitters did not have a lot of choices between the 22 hornet and the 220 swift. Wildcatters created all sorts cartridges of which many became factory rounds. Eg the 250 sav necked down to 22 cal became the 22-250. 308 Win necked down to 6mm became the 243.7x57 necked down to 25 cal the 257 roberts the roberts necked down to 6mm is the 6mm Rem. 06 necked down to 277 is the 270 Win neck it down to 25 and you have the 25-06. The 06 necked up to 35 is the 35 Whelan. A hard hitting wildcat that created a very good large game cartridge before the 375 H&H was readily availible or afforable. The 308 necked up to 35 is the 358 Win,another very useful calibre.
Reason # 3 Desire to learn more about cartridges and rifles Not all wildcats are as useful as some already mentioned and will never become a factory round.Some very large cases get necked down to very small calibres make no sense at all. An example is the .14 Earsplitten loudenbommer which is the 378 Wby necked to 14 cal. Sometimes there are actions availible that are not really suitable for some of the modern factory rounds. an example of this is the Siamese Mauser. a mauser action made to handle a rimmed case. Not real common but many are availible. I am presently building a .375/348 Improved on a siamese mauser. That is 348 Win case improved necked up to 375 cal. It will provide ballistics very close to the 375H&H but will work thru a much shorter action designed to handle a rimmed case. There are many other reasons as well. While it is not for everyone I would like to suggest that the people who do play with Cats end up learning a lot more about what makes rifles work ,how to make them feed properly ,ballistics and numerous other things that make them a lot more knowledgable about hunting and the shooting sports in general.

quote:

theree's no reason for a fist when an open hand slap works so well .

Jeffeosso...I think I will specialize in "Slapping Safari's" the cameramen always get good footage to sell

p.s.

It is intrinsicly human to want to improve things even if others dont quite see it that way.

My wife tries out new shoes make-up and purses and tries to convince me that THIS one is better...I dont see it but as long as SHE does and dont put us in the poor house even more and it makes her happy...all I gotta do is say to her "Whatever makes you happy Dear"

wildcats make it due to B.S., high preasure or they realy are better and most think their wildcat is the latter...like mine

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick: It is intrinsicly human to want to improve things

All of my wildcats have improved things, considerably. They improved the standard of living for the barrel makers, reamer grinders, bullet swadgers, powder and primer sellers and, by extension, the economy of the entire world.

ray

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick: It is intrinsicly human to want to improve things

All of my wildcats have improved things, considerably. They improved the standard of living for the barrel makers, reamer grinders, bullet swadgers, powder and primer sellers and, by extension, the economy of the entire world. ray

SO THERE Wild Willey. I knew I had a reason. Like one of our not long ago Presidents I just forgot. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick: It is intrinsicly human to want to improve things

All of my wildcats have improved things, considerably. They improved the standard of living for the barrel makers, reamer grinders, bullet swadgers, powder and primer sellers and, by extension, the economy of the entire world.

ray

Now there is a response I can understand. More power to ya. Where in these Arizona are you contributing to the economy?

Bill

I'm in beautiful downtown Linden. The wife and I drove thru the wilds of Pinetop just today on our way to the buffet at HonDah. Not their best effort, BTW. But another 20 bucks contributed to the economy.

ray

The useful-ness of wildcats: latest example; the 577 Belted Magnum Express. Show of hands of those of you out there with the necessary $$$ to own a .577NE 3"DR...? Hardly anybody, sit down SafariKid...

For less than $2100 you can have one of Boomie's .577BMEs on a CZ550 Magnum. Buy one in 416 Rigby, rebarrel, open up the frame rails and bolt face to Gibbs specs, have my guy make you a set of dies, and go happy!! Ditto for my 550 Gibbs, except you can buy dies from Hornady right now! Ed Hubel has done most of the load work for both. Easy answer for the 577BME, use 577NE 3" starting loads.

Only a wildcat can put you into the equation as anything but a checkbook.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

IMHO:
You said it all with "I have been shooting and hunting for 50+ years..." Not quite long enough.

If you look hard, the explosion in wildcatting started about 100 yrs. ago when the Krag case, stronger than the brass designed for black powder, was adapted to the single shot buffalo rifles. (Along with its 1/2 brother the .303 British which was originally loaded with black powder!!??!!.) Blown out straight you have the .405 Winchester. Slightly longer too. There was a .35 Winchester that went no where fast.

At the same time, the .22 WCF (Winchester Center fire) a black powder cartridge was re introduced with smokeless powder and called the .22 Hornet! For the lever lovers, the .25/20 was necked down and heated up with smokeless and a lighter bullet, .218 BEE.

The .27/'06 arose in 1925 or 1926 depending on your source. It is called the .270 Winchester. Easy rebarrel of a Springfield that the government would sell you for $18.00 delivered with a walnut stock. Ammo was $0.01 per round with the rifle. Military surplus, of course. '06 cases were left on the ground for anyone to pick up FREE. One pass into a full length die and it is a .270 case. But with the powders available before WW II it was lame. .270 Titus (.27/.300 Savage) equalled it. Of course, WW II gave us 4831 and it began to sing. Scream.

The .243 Rockchucker goes back more than 50 years. That was the .257 Roberts necked down to .24. The .257 Roberts was the 7x57 Mauser necked down with MORE shoulder slope, less angle, the ticket to performance/accuracy in that day per Mr. Ned Roberts. When Remington adopted it, they chose to NOT use the less angle and kept the factory shoulder (which isn't very steep anyway) and it is most correctly called the ".257 Remington Roberts."

And after WW II, but more than 50 years ago, Remington decided to make this a factory cartridge as the .244. Later 6mm Remington.

If you study hard, you will find the few references to the military wanting a lighter ammo for the battle rifle. The Garand was originally designed around a .270 round... ?? Much later the .300 Savage was considered at higher pressure than factory. Slightly less body taper. Neck was too short. Neck was made longer. WAAA LAAA!! 7.62x51mm NATO... Of course Winchester, never one to miss an opportunity, introduced a civie round, .308 Winchester... And it was immediately taken to .243 and .358.

Oh yes, rim was made thicker too for service in full auto military machine guns. Slightly.

Maybe you have heard of Mr. Ackley and "Ackley Improved..." If you read his works, he very carefully explains, he was an engineer, that he sought less pressure directed at the bolt/ mechanism. A very responsible thing for an engineer to do. Straighter sides to the case do that. Better grip on the chamber walls under high pressure. Same theory Thompson used in the original Tommy Gun before 1920. This also increases the powder capacity and shoulder angle. Gravey on the taters. Frosting on the cake. Nuts on the sundae. ... Burn more powder, get more velocity...

Now the .284 WCF, again, about 50 years old, has the straight side case and sharp shoulder that the wildcatters had worked with for 30 or 40 years. Mr. Ackley was by no means alone although the names are fading, well, except Mr. Weatherby... Since it adds little to the '06 performance levels, the .284 has not done very well as an all around hunting cartridge, although it equals the .270, .30/'06, .280 Remington (.28/'06)... At the same time, necked down to 6mm, it was a house afire. Unfortunately barrel life was not "forever."

What your remark reflects to me is "ignorance." There was a couple decades when the "auto" did not come with an electric starter although a battery powered starter was available. Same with "safety glass. Same with sealed beam headlamps. Factory did not want the expense/hassle.. But then enough people had added electric start et al and buyers demanded it... and today... can you image "cranking" a Honda??? or Toyota??? Although with the return to the 4 cylinder engine... more practical...

I have known many like you. "Shoots good, goes bang." If you are happy, so be it. You go out and do your thing and enjoy the benefits of progress but feel no need to be grateful to those who have developed what you enjoy... oh well. Sermon over. Luck.

Well, I really don't NEED a wildcat. Ireally don't NEED a gun at all. Generally speaking, the neeed is psychological.....