what is diferrent between the wildcatters on this forum and the wildcaters of the 30s, 40s, and 50s??? Does talk and do ring a bell? roger

Roger



Ray

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
what is diferrent between the wildcatters on this forum and the wildcaters of the 30s, 40s, and 50s??? Does talk and do ring a bell? roger

Seriously, the biggest difference is chronographs.

Now now I have a 375PDK and 400PDK being chambered at the current time. Will they add much velocity over the 375 & 400 Whelen or Hawk. Nope probably less than 50fps but they will say PDK to match their brothers in the safe.

I found the easiest way to gain velocity is just just make sure my Chrony isn't flat. Little shorter distance sure adds velocity.

Frank & Paul

Your posts are certainly valid. But the way I read Roger's question is a little different.

I have only been on the Internet for 3 years. I am a wildcatter myself and so I naturally started viewing the various wildcat forums with a great deal of anticipation. But, sad to say, I have been more dissapointed than educated. On more than one occasion I have read posts by a "wildcatter" who had developed a series of cartridges. But when I would contact him for more information I would be told, "Oh, I haven't really perfected them beyond the drawing board stage. In fact, I don't really do much shooting. I'm more interested in the design part."

I think that's what Roger is getting at and I agree with him 1000%.

In my own modest collection I have several wildcats with the "Bartsche" tag on them so I know that he's the real thing.

Paul, can you PM me? I'd like to get some specimens of those PDK wildcats for my collection.

Just the humble opinion of a certifiable wildcatter.

Ray

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cheechako:
Frank & Paul

Your posts are certainly valid. But the way I read Roger's question is a little different.

In my own modest collection I have several wildcats with the "Bartsche" tag on them so I know that he's the real thing.QUOTE]

Nice comment. Thank you. roger

now lemme see: JeffeOsso with a line of AR's...me with a 510KX, a 550 Gibbs, and am building the first 577BME...along with a 475 Gibbs in time for Rockchuck season next spring...where am I? Reamers exist for all of these, and rifles are under construction.

It takes time and $$$ to get reamers, barrels, custom dies, brass, actions, and stock blanks acquired and assembled. None of those old guys you refer to laid out any time line from idea to first round fired did they?
There is a lot of "...what if we..." here, but the thing is a forum for free exchange of ideas. Back in the old days those guys wouldn't provide much in case dimension specs...they were gunsmiths who made a living rechambering and rebarreling/restocking WWII surplus military rifles. Weatherby finally confessed that he made the shoulder so no shadetree gunsmiths could copy it very easily. They weren't co-conspirators, they were competitors.

Today that is not the case, we're mostly searching for a better mousetrap...

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...ever hear of the Marciante Bluestreak?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
now lemme see: JeffeOsso with a line of AR's...me with a 510KX, a 550 Gibbs,

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...ever hear of the Marciante Bluestreak?

I can see where I was being too general.My stupid question was not focused on the true wildcaters on this form. And yes ,Rich, it is a quite expensive hobby.

The big difference ,as I see it is the computer and being able to share thoughts and information in a way our predecessors never could. Perhaps I got a bug up my butt with what I thought was developing into idole chit chat. Probably the adage "Do it and than talk about it." has become archaic. However, Rich, no foul intended. Place your shot well on that Rock Chuck roger

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:. . . Back in the old days those guys wouldn't provide much in case dimension specs...they were gunsmiths who made a living rechambering and rebarreling/restocking WWII surplus military rifles. . . They weren't co-conspirators, they were competitors....ever hear of the Marciante Bluestreak?

Rich

Not all of them were gunsmiths or business competitors. Most were average guys just like us. Some were very secretive about their creations, such as Gebby. Some had big egos, like Donaldson. Some were enthusiastic and ran around telling anyone who would listen, like Marciante.

The big difference bewteen then and now was communication. Information was usually exchanged by letters. Two or three guys could be working on the exact same idea and yet not be aware that anyone else was onto it.

Roger has said that he didn't intend to paint all of us with the same brush and that is the way I read his post originally. But we all have to admit that there are a lot of Internet wildcatters out there who can invent a new wildcat every day and yet never fire a shot. But I don't begrudge them their hobby. I liken wildcatting to NASCAR - there are those who like to design cars, those who like to work on them, and those who like to drive them.

I've heard of the Bluestreak. Here's one from my collection.

Ray

bartsche,
The internet and computer has fostered peer review and the sharing of ideas and knowledge on a quicker scale. It hasn't added to the pool of machinests ready to have a go and the way the World is going, soon we'll only be allowed to shoot blanks into condoms.

The sharing of ideas and knowledge I personally find the most stimulating. Knowledge implies time however and the world moves faster every year. Years ago as a Research Officer for the Ag Dept I found some pretty tentative relationships between salinity and groundwater use ... I still remember the statistician telling me to publish the results. It didnt matter if they were crap ... you made your name on number of articles published NOT the quality of work. So some wildcat ideas are only part baked when published or written about.

Unfortunately ... in the next decade or two ... the sons/daughters of the wildcatting pioneers in Australia will be gone, and with it all knowledge of such things as the Myra series of cartridges by Artur Langsford ... the 250Myra being a commercial entity in outback NSW when Wootters wrote his 25Copperhead articles , and let's not discuss Langsford's work with the 22shot, 22RF and 22Magnum cases necked to 17cal or the Extruder cartridges. At one point there was real competition (now rumoured to have been quite personal!) here between the wildcatters of the 303based cases ... one would do a 22cal and the other would "improve" it and quote better ballistics. Then yet another would remove the rim, cut an extractor groove, improve it and use the full length 303British case and get "better" ballistics. No doubt the Canadians where doing the same!

At the tender age of 36 ... I am constantly reminded that we shoot, hunt, tinker and take for granted much to do with our rifles. But we do it standing on the shoulders of giants that have gone before us. May those named and un-named wildcatters RIP for their spirit still beats strong in many and is acted upon by some, just like the instinct to hunt and wander outdoors does in many of us in this 21st century.
Cheers...
Con

I sure wish the internet had been around back in 1981 when I started with my PDK family.

Spent 20 years working on various calibers using the same case only to find out I had a Gibbs in a 280 case and 40deg shoulder.

Who am I kidding I would have still done it just left off the couple that his info showed very maginal improvement just like mine.

I do feel there is a difference between the ones that come up with ideas and hope someone else will invest time and $$ and the ones that have the idea, spend theri time and $$.

Its a tough question, actually...because you have to have a historical perspective, and to try & evaluate what the
old timers were all about.
My brief opinion is the "oldtimers" were for the most part, more enthusiasts than todays guys...you had the
ultimate enthusiast & wildcatter...old Chas Newton, you had Ned Roberts, PO Ackley, Gebby, Harvey Donaldson,
Phil Sharpe, Townsend Whelan, to mention the well known names...
They had a real interest in progressiveness...I think the real difference is...back then there was a different
situation...like when the .30-40 was king...old Chas Newton came out with a .30 Magnum//it wasn't accepted much,
and the lever gun still king, heck bolt actions weren't even accepted for a long time...
I think it falls into a period of the realm when wildcatters such as Gebby, Donaldson, Newton, Whelan, etc. were
more breaking new ground lets say. And today's wildcatters have all the advantages of lessons learned in the past,computer & ballistics technology at their fingertips...I don't think today's wildcatters are breaking new
ground, as its already been broken for them by the old timers...and access to new technology.
In fact, if you want to be honest about the whole thing...its still in the realm of small arms...and I have some
experience background with high explosives, etc.
Its still small arms technology...how far can you go...? Just incremental advances...nothing earthshaking or
quantum leaps...its bound by its nature, isn't it?
But, in sum, the old timers were better! IMHO.
And, saying that, I knock myself as I'm a new guy!
Best Regards,
Tom

so, now several of us know about the Blue Streak.

It was intended to be a short sort-of 22 on the 30-30 case, like Donaldson's Wasp. The story I got from Mike Walker was that Marciante was burning the midnight oil the night before the big NBRSA Championships, chambering a new barrel. He supposedly realized he did not have any brass made up, so just ran the reamer in the full 2.080" (?) and cut dies to match for his arbor press (fireforming 219 Zipper brass)...aka a home brew beer bottle capper. Those guys had a lot more fun shooting benchrest than they do today. Each gunsmith had a regional following, and winning matches was vital to new barrel jobs, and dies, etc. Some even made their own bullets. Today, much like NASCAR and Hockey they have sanitized and homogenized all of the creativity out of it.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Hey Ray, interested in buying a Vickery smithed DST Mauser from the late fifties? 219 DW, benchrest stock with baroque and weatherby highlights, about a hundred feet of checkering, rosewood grip cap and forend. Got forming dies, and some of that really neat 30 American brass for it. The old guy I got it from used a tong tool to reload it. About 1953-54.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
.... Today, much like NASCAR and Hockey they have sanitized and homogenized all of the creativity out of it.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

or lawyered it up..

i tried to order a super light barrel in .423 for a 10,75x68 project, and one barrel maker wouldn't go under .650 at the muzzle... which, to me, is huge...

anyway, there's doers and there's talkers... and there's them that like both...
The rounds that I know of, in firing rifles, invented here (plus the 470mbogo) are the
12GAFH, 700 Hubel, 700 3.25 Hudel/DA, 600 OK, 550 magnum, 550 flanged, 550 express, 550 gibbs, 500 mbogo, 510kx, 500ar, 470 mbogo, 470 ar, 458 ar, 416 ar, the .400 or .395s rip and boomy and prof have come up with and my dinky 257JLS (257xwsm) ...

each one basically is $1000 bucks, from thought to shot, at least. in the case of the 550s, why, neal invented a caliber (the "other" round aroudn .550 arent) which means convinving barrel and bullet makers to even play.

i think that a fella can invent an idea.. but if he doesn't finish it as it is no "reason" or improvement, that's one thing... after all, how many times can you come up with a 308? .. and if he just makes yet another 300 wizbang, then he's either just doing it for ego or is a slow learner...

some guys asked me why i didn't actually DO the sub .400 ar rounds, and I replied that the space is too crowded and I am not interested in play in that crowded field...

besides, Ken Howell likes my AR rounds

yoos fergots the 577'ses

Boomy
didn't forget.. just waiting for there to be a firing rifle ...

awlrite

For the record:

Revival of the .395 was my idea out of simple insanity.

I was thinking .395/.338 Lapua Magnum, after having wildcatted the .338 Lapua Mag. to straight neck-ups to .375, .423, and .458. .416 Lapua did not make sense with the .416 Rigby basis for the .338 Lapua to start with, and the .423 was so close to .416 already. Half way between .375 and .416 = .3955

It would not have happened if Gerard Schultz had not agreed to make the GSC trio of .395/340-grain bullets he designed at my request.

I then bought the tooling for Harry McGowen to make .395 Barrels. Five barrels were made before Harry sold to American Gun Holdings. McGowen Precision Barrels, LLC has the .395 button-rifling tooling now, as well as their new CNC machinery. MPB is working on three more barrels ordered last week. Eight barrels so far. WOO HOO!

Gerard beat me to designing a reamer: .395 GSC. This is essentially a .375 H&H necked up to .395 and blown out Ackley-style. I had reamers, finish and roughing (to make dies), made by Dave Manson and sent to Gerard.

I appreciated this greatly, having the bullet maker's throating to put on my subsequent reamers:

.395 Tatanka (first modern .395 rifle completed)(.416 Rigby full length with 20-degree shoulder, like a ".395/.338 Lapua Long", aka .40-07)

.398 Lapua Mag.(under construction now) (.395 neck and throat reamer, used with .338 Lapua Mag. removable pilot reamer)

.395 Ruger Max (reamer done)(straight neckup of the .375 Ruger) (prof242 will build the first one and I the second)

400 Nitro Express (3" Aboriginal .395-caliber)(reamer on order now)

prof242 has had the gumption to order barrels, order custom dies, and make input on reamers, which has resulted in the .395 Ruger Max, an excellent cartridge, and proper headstamp will be easy from factory brass, just like the ".398 Lapua Mag." is easy for headstamp.

B-Max Bullets: prof242 is also leading me down the bullet resizing road which is now leading to cast bullets, while we wait for Gerard to deliver bullets.

boomstick has contributed greatly by starting a thread about the "400 Nitro Express That Never Was" and inspiring me to order yet another reamer from Dave Manson: 400 Nitro Express

These things take time unless you have enough money to take over a producer right now for a trivial pet project.

Let's not get started again on the 500 Mbogo, for which I have a reamer and a barrel, and was hoping to have a Satterlee action. Maybe the rifle will be ready in 2008 ... "Fifty-Aught-Eight" goes so well with a "Forty-Ought-Seven" and a "Thirty-Ought-Six" ... now there is a battery.

It is all about fun and the critics here are taking themselves too seriously.

COCD: Even boom stick's Cartridge Obsessive Compulsive Disorder produces some good ideas sometimes.
Even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then.

"CD" is also the Roman numerals for "400" of which I am the genius loci, and that too is not meant to be taken seriously, please. A "genius loci" is a "guardian spirit" not the "village idiot."

Think of this: It is more dangerous to drive to work each morning than it is to go on a dangerous game hunt in Africa. All of accuratereloading.com is about "Professional Small Boy" stuff.

Have fun.

quote:

COCD: Even boom stick's Cartridge Obsessive Compulsive Disorder produces some good ideas sometimes.
Even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then.

If i were rich I would be dangerous.

My disorder is always asking "What if, Why not, How about, Can it be done and Wouldnt tht be neet."

Einstein said "imagination is more important than knowledge."

Thank you all for the knowledge.

500Mbogo IS a good one, and most wildcatting, then and now, is a cycle of endless variations on a central theme.

The two big revolutionary, not evolutionary wildcats the world owes homage to in the past several years came from the AR Forum...the .395_____, and the 550____ (you fill in the blank).
RNS has CZ planning a run in his 550Magnum, and only THE Lord and RIP know what could happen to the 395 caliber by year's end.

I have a larger case capacity 550, known as the 550 Gibbs Magnum, and I am getting ready to show some velocity and bullet weight numbers to a current US partnership at two trade shows the first of the year....SCI in January, and the SHOT Show a week later.

Boomstick, bless his imagination, has "ideaized" the bolt action equivalent of the 577NE 3" DR cartridge, with none of the issues two earlier designs had...and brass will be available for the forseeable future.

IMHO, wildcatting in the 21st century is alive and well.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
..Can it be done and Wouldnt tht be neet."

and how many times has boom busted my chops over spelling?

LOL

the 470mbogo is still the best of the wildcats, imnho, and the 470AR is nothing but it's little brother, fully intentional to be the smaller wunderkind

i have to tell you, anytime that someone makes one of my rounds in their rifle, i am complimented at a very very very basic level

Sorry El Jeffe... I was posting in a hurry and the ball and chain as pushing me out the door...didnt have time to proof the post.

Dont forget the 500 MAX (.500) on a belted rum case. Engineer Ed helped make it possible. 500 Nitro power on a .532 bolt using RUM brass. Reamer getting ordered this week. gixxer is getting the first one. That should go boom in a couple months.

Wildcatting today compared to days gone by, are the fact that very little have yet to be done. Ocationally a new case comes up, and it is necked up and down from max to min within days. And it is all for the hell of it, more than a practical need.

Today people have more money, and so we can afford to play around with the biggest ones in a way we could not before - besides the point that people also have money enough to actually make a market for theese boomers.
The need for a new .577 is hardly urgent, but my-my is it a neet idea and a grand cartridge.

One would expect todys catters to see the oportunity with the modern powders and bullets to make smaller cartridges, but the ghost of St.Elmer is to present to ignore, and we are still dreaming of more speed and power.

Today, we can call Quality Cartridges and order any brass we want, while they back in Nonte's days made them in the garage out of practically scratch.

Wildcatting are many things, but it all starts with an idea. Some people are awfully hung up in the fact that some people only have ideas, and not the skill and money to make it into a working gun. Even people who have never come up with a single 'cat in their life.

That is funny.

Hell yes boom stick has some good ideas ... too many good ideas for our own good!
What will he come up with next? What will it take to make him bite the bullet?

That was the devil talking through me. I am still possessed.

I think the term, "for shits and grins" fits most of the current wildcatters' dreams. We're having fun and not hurting anyone (except a few manufacturers who want us to buy their latest designs instead of our own).
I've been building wildcats for years only to have most of them made into factory rounds. In some ways I'd like the .395 cartridges to eventually become factory, but then I wouldn't have the shock value when someone asks what caliber? WHY .395 OF COURSE!

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Wildcatting today compared to days gone by, .

One would expect todys catters to see the oportunity with the modern powders and bullets to make smaller cartridges, but the ghost of St.Elmer is to present to ignore, and we are still dreaming of more speed and power.

Your complete posting was a nice well thought out response. roger

quote:

i tried to order a super light barrel in .423 for a 10,75x68 project, and one barrel maker wouldn't go under .650 at the muzzle... which, to me, is huge...

As I was ordering a barrel for a 411 project I ran into the same issue. Two barrel manufacturers wouldn't go thinner than .125" per side.

quote:

The need for a new .577 is hardly urgent, but my-my is it a neet idea and a grand cartridge.

Thanks bent

quote:

Hell yes boom stick has some good ideas ... too many good ideas for our own good!

Thanks Rip

I see wildcatting goes through fads that repeat themselves like bell bottoms comming back in style then out again but hell...if you like bell bottoms you dont pay attention to when things change. P.S. the ghost of Elmer Keith visits me each night and whispers wildcat dimensions in my ears and I wake up thinking they are my ideas

I see there has been a tug o war of fast and small vs large and slow but today large and fast is in vogue...Next week, small and slow I say this with the desire of having a 22 Hornet in my heart.

Boomy,
Projectile availability is also a major issue. With the release of the 204Ruger more 20cal wildcats have appeared so I dont think large and fast is anymore in vogue then small and fast. Mind you in a large rifle "fast" is often defined as 2400fps, the smaller stuff "fast" is often somewhere in the 3600-3800fps realm.
The large calibre fascination is perhaps an AR specialty
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
or lawyered it up..

i tried to order a super light barrel in .423 for a 10,75x68 project, and one barrel maker wouldn't go under .650 at the muzzle... which, to me, is huge...

anyway, there's doers and there's talkers... and there's them that like both...
The rounds that I know of, in firing rifles, invented here (plus the 470mbogo) are the
12GAFH, 700 Hubel, 700 3.25 Hudel/DA, 600 OK, 550 magnum, 550 flanged, 550 express, 550 gibbs, 500 mbogo, 510kx, 500ar, 470 mbogo, 470 ar, 458 ar, 416 ar, the .400 or .395s rip and boomy and prof have come up with and my dinky 257JLS (257xwsm) ...

each one basically is $1000 bucks, from thought to shot, at least. in the case of the 550s, why, neal invented a caliber (the "other" round around .550 aren't) which means convincing barrel and bullet makers to even play.

i think that a fella can invent an idea.. but if he doesn't finish it as it is no "reason" or improvement, that's one thing... after all, how many times can you come up with a 308? .. and if he just makes yet another 300 wizbang, then he's either just doing it for ego or is a slow learner...

some guys asked me why i didn't actually DO the sub .400 ar rounds, and I replied that the space is too crowded and I am not interested in play in that crowded field...

besides, Ken Howell likes my AR rounds

@jeffeosso

For "boolits" take a look at this German guy. The website is English and German and if there is stuff n German you want translated PM me!!
I never shoot his stuff, but from the articles it looks good and I think for special designs and calibers, a group buy would make it feasible! I don't know the $$ or Euros for the "boolits", but maybe it is all good!!??
I still have my stash of 300grain .375 Win Silvertip!! When they are gone, I have to look for a replacement and I think, that's the guy I want to talk to.

http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/index.html

DISCLAIMER: I have NO connection to the site or the enterprise!!