Looking for any thoughts or info on this idea ?

It all started with a BSA Cadet & finding a reasonably powerful cartridge for it, found what seems amazing 357Max in a rifle, then thought a 357Max Rimless would be great in a little bolt gun, 35Rem power lots of bullets proven at that velocity & been killing game for years, a little under rated really .

So acquired a BSA Hunter rifle, this is their shortest action & very sort after down my way, it has a large Mauser type extractor that I was thinking would help with the head spacing like on the B&M cartridges .

I do how ever love the little Sako actions L461-AI more, they are a bit lighter, far more attractive & will hold 6 to 7 rounds in the mag, so I was liking the idea of this Max round on this action, then just now won a auction for a super light carbon type Sako AI stock, seems I'm getting pushed towards the Sako .

Now I have a 338/06 Weatherby Ultra Lite, which is Bloody awesome, so I keep my eyes out for 338/06 related items, just recently a take off 338/06 Ultra Lite SS fluted barrel turns up at a reasonable price, these have a very small barrel shank & if used on a large action need a bush of some type, so I was thinking on what to do if I got it, then I had this thought, 338 of some type on a 221, 222, 223, case instead of the 357Max rimless, I can cut the 06 chamber off & most likely tread into the tiny Sako action ?

The best round I think would be the 357Max Rimless with a fast twist barrel, it can use a wide range of projectile weights & be a great subsonic round to, light recoil & quite, just the thing for women, children, well any body really, suppressors are widely used in NZ & it seems ever second rifle has one fitted here .

The down side in NZ is we find it very hard & overly expensive to get barrels, a SS .35Cal barrel with a suitable twist would be over $800 IF I could get one shipped here so could be over a $1000 landed & take months/years (but Hell I've been thinking on it for 4yrs) .

This 338/06 barrel is here 1in10 twist which works on my mates 338Fed subsonic loads & would be a quarter of that price.

I just need a cartridge to equal the Max in 338, like a slightly shorter TCU style case & maybe have a .037 shoulder, any ideas ?

Shortened .338 Federal, which is, as you probably know, just an opened up .308 Winchester. At least you could screw up a lot of brass making cases fairyly cheaply.

338-6.5 Grendel.
AKA 8.5 Grendel.
Easy head stamp/barrel stamp conversion.
I like to call it the Three Thirty Thor.

Thanks for the replies guys, I must be bad at explaining stuff or some thing, I said it needs to work in small action Sako L461-AI & use 221, 222, 223, case so I can keep mag capacity & bolt head size !

I think the 338/223 is low on power compared to 357Max & was hoping some one might know of some thing else or a 338 on a improved 222/223 like a necked up TCU ?

You will have to use a shortened 30 Rem case and a .308 bullet in the L-461, it just won't handle anything larger, and only then with two down and one in the chamber. I don't think you could go up to .338 with the 30 Rem brass?? but not sure. I have shot the 308/30 Rem some as my old friend Tony Barnes, rest his soul, built a number of them on L-461 Sako actioned pistols for himself, Steve Herrit, Bob Walack and a few others infamous gents.

You could get by with a Sako mod. L571, med. action however and use a 358 Win. case or even better yet a .284 case and almost duplicate a 35 Whelen

Thank you for that Ray, yes I have thought of other cases, but I want the small action, preferably Sako & really the 357Max Rimmless is the one, just I can get this 338 barrel !

You are talking about some thing I have chewed over which would be a 30/6.8mmSPC & it would be good to & would go to 338 I'm sure, but I want to keep the mag capacity.

This could be a semi powerful (35 Rem power) light weight, most likely suppressed, carry around shoot most things rifle, great for Kids, I have been taking my mates Daughter out Deer hunting, she is carrying a 6mm/223 Sako suppressed that I bought then sold to her Dad, but we have turned down many shots on Deer as I just don't trust those little bullets enough & maybe her bullet placement when near very heavy Bush & some times just on dark !

I have made up a dummy round on the 222 Rem case, seated a 300Gr Woodleigh (goes in a long way) & this will work in the Sako mag, 180 AB & Woodleigh seated to the neck also fit in the mag & the case holds 24gr of 748, I have not idea what velocity this would achieve unfortunately .

Have you considered the 300 AAC (300 Blackout) necked up to .338? Guys are shooting the 208 Amax in that round, and a 210-grain .338" bullet would be no different, as I see it, other than a different BC. I know the barrel would be a challenge... just a thought.

With respect, I think you might need to lower your expectations on velocity or go with a larger capacity case. The 358 Gremlin is a larger 6.5 Grendel case necked up and performs like the 35 Rem with 180's @2,350 so a case much smaller and with longer bullets would require some dangerous pressure.

How bout designing and building a .338 PPC deep throat fast twist. This is the wildcat forum so that seems about right. You could start with the 7.62 X 39 cases.

If that don't float your boat try the .338 X 41mm (1.625") starting with .308 cases. roger

boom stick, I did look at your 35Gremlen & really liked the idea, I would just lose my mag capacity,

The 357 Max (with hotter handloads) in a rifle matches 35 Rem factory loads in same, it is obvious that the pressure is higher & the 35Rem could do much more loaded up, but the 35Rem has been getting the job done with factory loads for years so equalling those loads is good enough, there is a heap of information on the 357Max in rifles & it works well, seems only a couple of guys have done a rimmless versions, one is the 357AR & it is doing very well to, it works in the AR15 platform, I don't believe the cartridge is over loaded or dangerous pressures used, just to justify the existence of this Wild Cat like a lot of guys who invent them do !
Not that the 357Max Rimmed is a Wild Cat, just a change of use & loads.


Is 2350fps with a 180gr in the 35Rem a factory load, my thoughts were 180gr at from 2100 to 2200 tops ?

Lots of variables but 180 Hornady spire points at 2,350 and 200 RN at 2,200 are about perfect for the 35 Rem. I would have to double check the published load data to be sure. If your parameters are a 338 on the 223 case I would focus on subsonic loads and CNS shots with limited or no expansion of the factory projectiles. I would encourage you to be patient and keep shopping for a 35 barrel. The only other option that would float my boat would be a 348-223 unless you don't mind neck reaming to fit a 35 cal bullet in a 223 case.

you could just get the 338 Something, and buy dies off the shelf. It is the 7,62x39 necked up. Very popular for silenced semi-auto rifles.

Rich

I think you are right & I should get the 35Cal barrel, so many bullets work well at 35Rem/Max velocities & fit the cartridge so well, which in turn fits my idea for this rifle !

Just wish I could order a barrel like in the old days, pre 2008 !!

Looks like 35Rem factory loads are 150gr @ 2300/2350fps & 200gr @ 1910fps to 2080fps, so the Max can really do a bit more than factory 35Rem .

Thanks Rich, yes sounds like that would be cool to, but again not quite the right size for this project.

Doubless yes have been thinking on the 300BLK to 338 also & the barrel for that would be the easy part for me, just need a little more power .

Can you find a donor 35 cal gun locally and have a smith convert it to your cadet rifle?

The issue which has not been mentioned is an issue of projectiles

With a lower capacity cartridge you'd expect lower muzzle velocity and thus lower impact velocity...

And begs the question are there 338 Diameter bullets that are designed to work at these velocities?

Or are they designed to work at 338 Win Mag velocities?

a .358 bore diamerter opens the door to projectiles designed for 35REM velocities...

as for a .358 diameter shooting rifle?
I'd go 35REM because I have no desire to re-invent something that has already been proven to work

AD

I have had my eyes out looking for a 35cal donor for a while, none around, not a very popular caliber down this way & it wouldn't have the faster twist, I think I will order a 35cal barrel from Pacnor or similar & just pick it up if I get to the US in the next couple of years .

Now Allan I did post this in the Wildcat section for a reason & did give the parameters of the rifle I wanted it in
Also I think the 35Rem velocities have been getting it done for a while & lots of bullets that work at those velocities as I said .

Two things on 338 projectiles, yes I think not a lot made to work at lower super sonic speeds, some lighter bullets for 338 Fed & 338/06 (but that is darn near Mag any way) but heaps of very good projectiles made for subsonic work !

Having said that I think a 250-350gr flat nose large meplat cast bullet in the 35cal would be a winner & take care of most things under 100-125yds

There is a thread on The Marlin Owners 336 forum that has a test report on a heap of 35cal slugs at 35Rem velocities, very informative .

Does Hornady still offer their SSP (Single Shot Pistol) line?

Use the 7*33 sako as a parent case (based on 9*19) shoulder diameter 9,5mm/.375
Bertram makes brass. The 7*33 makes 2400f/s with 80gr bullets.

Hi Sarg, it's been a while. Hope you are keeping well.

I know you mentioned the little Sako and they are a sweet rifle, but they are very limited on mag length. You might want to run your eye over the Zastava mini Mauser which is loosely styled on the Sako. This little action is / was chambered in the 22H, 222/223, 7.62x39 and 22/250 - ie it offers a lot more flexibility than a Sako. They are common over here and not that expensive.

There is at least one barrel maker in Oz that produces 35 cal bbls and there is always Walther Lothar, who make top quality bbls that arent badly priced (around AUD400).

I think one of those mini Mausers in 35 Rem would make a neat little rifle for what you are looking for.

Bear in mind also that the 35 Rem is very much under loaded even for use in a Marlin. It's loaded to about 33k pressures.

Either. 338x223 which is a cast bullet affair if you require expansion.

Or the 7,62x25.. 30 Mauser or tokarov. I built a destroyer carbine in that

338 Spectre
http://www.teppojutsu.com/338.htm

Hey Joe, Boy you were missed in camp last year !! Pleased to hear from you .

Yes have had Zastava mini Mauser's more than a couple, just hard to cotton to them, hate the mag release
I think one could be made up nice, especially the early Mark X ones seemed to be finished better, but would cost a fair bit more after the work .

In fact I had been looking out for a 22/250 Zastava thinking they must have a longer mag box, but have not found one in the flesh in NZ, second choice would be the 7.62X39, but then I would must likely just keep it as is & it would do the same job LoL !

I thought barrels in Oz were expensive to, I would have to buy one there & bring it back, as I'm sure they would not be able to ship in this day & age ? !

You know what on thinking on the Zastava in 22/250 the case head is the same as 35 Rem (or close) & length may well work, I had been wanting one in the past to do a 30 Apache (30/223) after a friend had one on a full size action & it worked great on Deer, Super & Sub sonic, then thought get 7.62X39 & keep it simple (like me).

Now you are making me have second thoughts, I would lose mag capacity but gain easy case forming (none) & much more power still if wanted & with the price of Sako L461-A1 going the way they are I would break even or have money left over from the sale of one of my Sako's ?

Thanks for the idea, see if we ask enough some one may just have it !

So Joe where is a cheap Zastava in 22/250 ?

Say did the case design for the 250/3000 Savage come from necking down the 35 Rem case ?

Thank you to ever one who made a comment & had ideas, I really appreciate the effort !

Hi Sarg,

It's easier to find used Zastava minis in 223 but they have a smaller mag box and bolt face. Also worth noting is I believe the models in 22H and 7.62x39 use a clip mag. Used ones in 22/250 are thin on the ground but as Beretta import them and they are not that expensive ($650ish new), it may be worth just ordering a new one.

Those actions are a bit of an ugly duckling, but check this thread to show what is possible (with lots of money):

http://forums.accuratereloadin...251015831#3251015831

The 35 Rem is a unique case that's not based on the 30/06 case head at all. The only problem you would have is sourcing 35 Rem cases, if NZ is anything like Oz. The chambering is not really all that popular here and I ended up importing cases in from the U.S. when you still could.

Hope this helps.

quote:

Say did the case design for the 250/3000 Savage come from necking down the 35 Rem case ?

as far as I know the 250 Savage was a clean sheet invention of charles newton for savage, specifically designed for the M-99 Savage rifle.

How 'bout a 350 Bushmaster? OAL is the same as a .223. Shown on right, next to a .375 SOCOM.

Tony

Sarg, Alan Swan in brisbane makes 35cal barrels. His price has just gone up as he now uses the same supplyer as Maddco- better SS and cost a bit more. TSE (use to be MAB) in Brisbane also make 35cal barrels but they are a sdear as Maddco.

I do not know what it cost to ship to NZ and have no idea what your import duties are like. Both make 1 in 12 and 1 in 14 twist from memory. I have one from both and both are 1:12 twist.
If you happen to be comming over this way let me know as I have a second hand TSE barrel for my 35Sambar. It fits a Ruger 77 action however one gunsmith stuffed up the threads so I have replaced the barrel.

Sounds like a great idea, I'm up in the NT guideing right now, I will catch up when out I'm out of the bush !