In the latest issue of "Rifle" magazine, Jan. 2007
Cover says:" Exclusive .375 Ruger" Author Dave Scovill writes: "We now know, however, that the .375 Ruger case is essentially the same as the .30 Newton, or if you prefer the .35 Newton, albeit necked up to .375 inch." That's what I claimed all along & "RIP" took issue with me on the case dimensions...notably the base...whci Scovill says is .522" where the Newton case is .524" or .525".
Gipson, who was well known...way back in the 1940's necked the .30 Newton or .35 Newton to .375 & called it the .375 Gipson. It was(and is) a superior cartridge to the .373 H&H, and a good one.
The dimensions given by Dave Scovill are very close to the .375 Newton...so close...I suspect that Hornady used the old data or info of the .375 Gipson, and just changed it a bit to claim it as original & new...
In fact, I was going to build a .375 Newton based on necking up the .35 Newton brass to .375, but instead went a step further & necked it up to .416, making a .416 Newton, which is oh so much a beltless .416 Taylor..slight differences, actually a better case & slightly more than .416 Taylor performance...
Aloha, y' all
& RIP, you're wrong for sure now!
Best Regards,
Tom...the Newton Advocate///

If the 375 Gibson is superior to the 375 H&H, how come you can find 375 H&H ammo everywhere big stuff is hunted, and it's been killing big stuff close and far for nearly 100 years?

While I can appreciate the excitement of the new round, and fans of the forgotten rounds of the past, it is a bit much to say there is any 375 caliber that holds a candle to the H&H when it comes to field use and availability.

And since no-one has had a 375 Ruger in their hands to mention, we were all just relaying rumors when it came to case dimensions.

Well, since ya asked...in the best of the Western Tradition...I'll tell ya...take it or leave it.
The .375 H&H came out about 1912 I think. Before that was the 9.3x62..the sole reason the .375 H&H got its reputation is that it was used so much & was a decent cartridge...if you use a cartridge (because it was about the best developed at that time, and then took lots of game since it was better & effective...more people used it, and since it also killed a lot of game, its reputation increased simply because it was used so much) It was used a lot & when you hunt dangerous game & it works, it becomes popular. That's why, it was used so long, so much that it established itself. Now with your frozen Alaska brain if you can conceive it...why wouldn't a cartridge with more effectiveness of velocity & bullet weight in the same caliber be superior? It certainly would, it's just that it hasn't been used as much as the .375 H&H.
The problem with your thinking, is you haven't considered that if a cartridge has been used for so long...it gains its reputation from simply a lot of use. Not necessarily because its the best one...it perhaps was at the time. I'd suggest you pick up a copy of Greeners Classic,
"The Gun & its Development". Look up Cordite powder that the .375 H&H was developed for...and look at its photo of long, long spahgetti strands of powder that the overly tapered case of the .375 H&H was designed for. Do you now use cordite powder in the .375 H&H? No. But the case is overly tapered to get best effiency from that long a case. Better the straighter bodied cases that can use the case to better power. Hey, I had a 602 Brno .375 H&H...my beef was you couldn't load it up enough to get the best potential from that case...its basically underpowered for its length. That's why Weatherby & others improved the case by blowing it out with a straighter case. Its like you dwell on things like legends, & disregard the facts. Fact is the .375 H&H is a has been, outdated...its cartridge design was predicated on the use of a very long strand like British powder called cordite. In 1912, that was the cats meow...but not now. Its still an effective cartridge, simply because its still powerful enough...but its still outmoded by better ones. I'd take my .358 Norma Magum or .35 Newton in place of a .375 H&H any day & have it perform as well or better with a flatter trajectory. All you need to consider is bullet diameter, bullet weight & velocity. Use the Taylor formula...
As for generalities, they're like old wives tales...if they make you happy so be it...
But facts are facts...
Tom

I'll try and thaw out my frozen brain with your warm hearted comments.

Puzzle me this, if say a 270 gr TSX launched at 2700 fps from a 375 H&H is insufficient, is the answer really another 100-200 fps? I can certainly grasp the 416 as a superior choice, but I'm having a hard time seeing a faster 375 as truly better. Especially as you'll be recieving a bit more recoil that tends to make placing those over 300 yd shots more challenging.

But, I guess I don't know much, and neither do the sportsman that have had such success with the outdated H&H. Our kind Saeed has had much success with his very modern 375-404 despite handicapping himself by downloading it to the andequated H&H levels.

and to think i am going to be loading mine with 235tsx's at lightspeed...

btw, from hornady, the casehead is .532, not .522. .522 is what you get if you cut a taper into a .532HH case, but requires a different boltface... which is why the RUM and WSM cases are SLIGHTLY rebated to .532, to fit the same platform.

the ruger will have slightly less capacity than a 375 WEATHERBY, which means slightly less than a 416 Rem, in that configuration. Which means it may struggle to make 2400fps.

jeffe

Only real issue I see is a case that will give you H&H + velocities in an 06 length action without having to go excessive pressure.

Something might be a great as sliced bread. But, if it doesn't sell and no one uses it then it won't be around.

Paul,
the case on an HH case is .511 or so, right in front of the belt, the ruger will be larger and "improved".. therefore more internal case by spec.

heh, the ARs are .3" shorter than some of their HH based brothers... but 4$ larger in volume

jeffe

Wow, Tom for an advocate you're pissing off everyone doing it. Sure the 375 Ruger sounds good but after playing with a 378 improved and 3 375 H&H AI's, I can say extra velocity in 375's is not always a good thing. My friends who did the same AI conversions, say the same. I prefer less pressure and accurate hitting.
Hence now I'm shooting a 9.3x64 and in the spring my 416 Rigby will be done.

I hope I hear White Bison saying that this new 375 holds more powder and might, might shoot 300's faster than the awesome 375H&H, or shoot a 325/350gr bullet the same speed at the Holland shoots the 300. IMHO, the 375 got its' start and stranglehold before Americans started going to Africa in droves. By then it was "the" cartridge to take. If Remington had backed the Newton/Gibson case it might have challenged the old lady here, but we were not a presence on the Dark Continent.
Look what the 458WM did to all of the old nitro english cartridges...that could happen here as well.

Rich

Hi: No, I just take offense at the moderator who
makes unrealistic statements about the .375 H&H.
Briefly, its not a modern good cartridge: It is too long, with too much body taper...in the realm of "bad old fashioned", as opposed to "good old fashioned". Reminds me some 40 years ago when I came back from Vietnam, and hunted Moose in Canada
(Newfoundland). Wow, the greatest Moose rifle they thought was the .303 British! Since they could get them cheaply from military surplus, and used them...the .303 was considered the greatest cartridge extant. Mostly because they used them a lot, they worked when a good shot was made. When I used my custom .300 Weatherby, it was news to them. There are better .375's than the .375 H&H, and the .375 Ruger will be a good one...but like the .303 British, much of its reputation is overrated...it was just used a lot. And did work, OK, I grant you that...why shouldn't it? .375 bore, heavy bullets at fairly good killing velocity. But a well designed cartridge its not.
Maybe this will pacify. I just think its an unjustified reputation...I had one & used it, didn't like it since with taht long a case, i should've been able to get more oomph out of it..but counldn't due to the body taper restricting the powder capacity. I later sold it & never looked back.
Like the plaque on the wall in the Pilots Office:
"The Captain is entitled to his opinion, no matter how ridiculous it is". I have my opinion that the vaunted .375 H&H is a lousy designed cartridge...and that's it. You are entitled to yours.
Best Regards,
Tom

quote:

If the 375 Gibson is superior to the 375 H&H, how come you can find 375 H&H ammo everywhere big stuff is hunted, and it's been killing big stuff close and far for nearly 100 years?

While I can appreciate the excitement of the new round, and fans of the forgotten rounds of the past, it is a bit much to say there is any 375 caliber that holds a candle to the H&H when it comes to field use and availability.

Due to marketing, lack of knowledge or lack of interest the 375 Gibson fell by the way side. While it might give better velocity, etc it did not sell. Hey many would say the old Sony Beta vcr system was better than VHS and many would say the Mac system was better than Windows. But for many reasons VHS and Windows won out. The market decides what makes things superior "in use and availability".

I agree Paul's comment there isn't any 375 caliber that holds a candle to the H&H when it comes to field "use" and "availability". Can the 375Wby the 375AI and others even the 375 Ruger per the Hornady info all give a little more velocity sure. So what. I have yet to kill anything that 100-150fps made a difference.

Hey the 375 Ruger might replace the 375H&H but it will take many years. Many have tried to give 375H&H performance in an 06 action over the years. I love my 358Norma I played with a 375 Chatfield/Taylor. They give up very little if anything to the H&H. Try and find that ammo anywhere.

How the shooting public treats the 375 Ruger will only be known with time.

You guys sure can be a fickle bunch.

If "Joe Schmuck the Rag man" wants to shoot a "375-Up the Wazoo" wildcat and has dies and brass, well I would think he'd have no problem having ammunition to shoot. But, if "Suzie Rag Muffin" is paranoid that she may loose her ammo at every turn and must have cartridges available at any drug corner, 7-11 or petrol station; then maybe she should avoid getting anything "Up the Wazoo".

Who cares if the 375Ruger shoots the same bullet one hundred point some odd feet per second faster or slower than the H&H. But, if it can efficiently launch the same wonderful H&H bullets in the same ball park in a package that easily goes in most standard length actions w/ a non-magnum length barrel and is backed by the largest firearms manufacturer and a major ammunition/components manufacturer; Well I say that's good and not bad.

I'm willing to bet that if I get a 375Ruger that I'd have no problem whatsoever finding either ammo or components. And I'd also bet that if I were way up in the mountains hunting out of my backpack when all of my ammo is lost, that I'd have a hard time replacing it whether it be an "Up the Wazoo", H&H, Ruger or even a 30-06.

GVA

Gary,
i'll have a 375 ruger, you can bet your bottom dollar on it.

jeffe

I definitely have a strong hankering for a 375 Ruger, but the only thing is, it's gotta be a Model 70!

White Bison,

the 375 H&H was just "...firstest with the mostest..." about ninety-four years ago. It needs to be seen in context, and that is in terms of bolt rifle VS double in 1912. The MV and ME numbers were like a heavy weight lightning bolt to people who still trying to come to grips with indoor plumbing, electricity, and those new-fangled horseless carriages. That case design reflects the reality of Cordite powder more than anything else. The stuff looked like a broom, stalks of powder stuffed into a case that was THEN necked down and a bullet seated.

The europeans were pretty much the african hunters. Here, Arizona hadn't yet been admitted as the 48th state and Winchester's bolt rifle was the Hotchkiss.

As an example of "proper" case design the 375 is antiquated. As a game killing machine, it's still antiquated...but it just plain works. If it bleeds, the 375H&H has killed it. I like the new Ruger case, but I doubt it ever replaces the old Holland. Inertia and tradition. Look at the 376 Steyr...el floppo!

Rich
still...

I agree with "Idaho Sharpshooter" mostly....
But I am often tickled by the foloowing quote by Charles Cottar who was the American White Hunter in Africa, who said regarding the .35 Newton using one to take a Rhino: " striking it in the stern, the bullets raking its body the entire length and coming out the chest." It promptly made a good Rhino out of him. Cottar used the .35 Newton in Africa..also was killed when ambushed by a Rhino when his .405 bullets were too soft to penetrate &
be effctive, whereas the Rhino got to him.
I like the idea of the .375 Ruger because according to the latest info I got from "Rifle"
according to Dave Scovill..its very much like the .35 Newton ctg. necked to .375...and many years ago, Gipson, who I think mangaged Niedner's shop & business, built one by just necking up the .35 Newton case...and said it was
giving superior velocity & power. The thing is, you can always develop a bigger cartridge...true, but its more difficult to get performance from not just a bigger, but well designed efficient cartridge...and I think that's what the Newton cartridges & their wildcat offshoots offer. That's also why a lot of wildcats by those such as P.O. Ackley used the .30 Newton case & necked it down...to .270, 7mm, etc. Like the .270 Newton was said to throw a 160 gr. .270 bullet at 3500 fps! Don't know if this is true...but that's the story...
Hey, I just like to pass on info that I have & some experimentation I have done...I have no vested interest in promoting anything. I just have had great results using the .30 Newton case..and find the oldtimers had a lot of savvy who got me started.
Aloha,
Tom

When guns, ammo and components are available commercially buy one or don't. If someone else loves it or hates it, what does it matter?

I swear some people will piss and moan over anything on these boards!

heh..
what part of .375 bullet, 2500fps mv, 300gr X bullet could be bad?

heh
jeffe

The 375 Ruger is no doubt a well designed round, and with the (hopefully temporary) demise of the Win M70, the Ruger 77 mk II is the only domestic CRF bolt gun going. Hence the 375 Ruger will definately fit in a niche.

I just can't swallow the argument that it is vastly superior to the H&H, or that the old H&H in any way suffers from it's original design. 270's @ 2700 or 300's @ 2500 kill big stuff dead, and the shape of the case is superfulous.

I wonder if Jeff and I had known about the Ruger if'n we'd have gone to the trouble of designing the AR series, probably .

I just might have to build a 416 Ruger, I figure an all weather with a light 22" tube ought to be about perfection w/ 350's @ say 2600.

First thing people are going to say is

"If you put it in a .375 length action like an Win M70 or Rem 700 you can seat the bullets out and get more velocity."

One other thing has not been mentioned. The Ruger 77 Hawkeye .375 African is listed at $300 higher MSRP than the rest of the line.

The only thing I want to know is When/where do we get brass and dies?

Paul,
YEP!!! we would have done it anyway.. but, you know, that just means there's the 338 ruger (and the 35) waiting to happen...

funny enough, and in a parallel world, someone at HORNADY ... ruger, other than brass constraints, cam up with the same idea ...

jeffe

quote:

One other thing has not been mentioned. The Ruger 77 Hawkeye .375 African is listed at $300 higher MSRP than the rest of the line.

I do wonder why that is. Though it does not lower my interest in one.

boddington just confimed in guns and ammo of a .532 case and rim...

I just might have to do a 416 Ruger vs a 416 AR, but I'm undecided.

I've been getting wrapped up in little bores lately, 223 AI and 25-06 AI.

quote:

Originally posted by white bison:
In the latest issue of "Rifle" magazine, Jan. 2007
Cover says:" Exclusive .375 Ruger" Author Dave Scovill writes: "We now know, however, that the .375 Ruger case is essentially the same as the .30 Newton, or if you prefer the .35 Newton, albeit necked up to .375 inch." That's what I claimed all along & "RIP" took issue with me on the case dimensions...notably the base...whci Scovill says is .522" where the Newton case is .524" or .525".
Gipson, who was well known...way back in the 1940's necked the .30 Newton or .35 Newton to .375 & called it the .375 Gipson. It was(and is) a superior cartridge to the .373 H&H, and a good one.
The dimensions given by Dave Scovill are very close to the .375 Newton...so close...I suspect that Hornady used the old data or info of the .375 Gipson, and just changed it a bit to claim it as original & new...
In fact, I was going to build a .375 Newton based on necking up the .35 Newton brass to .375, but instead went a step further & necked it up to .416, making a .416 Newton, which is oh so much a beltless .416 Taylor..slight differences, actually a better case & slightly more than .416 Taylor performance...
Aloha, y' all
& RIP, you're wrong for sure now!
Best Regards,
Tom...the Newton Advocate///

What a tizzy! Scovill confused?

.375 Ruger: It only makes sense if it is a .532" base and rim.

I'm not too sure, like so many others here on the board, that there is really that much market for another 375 caliber cartridge.

However, that being said, you just know that marketing will eventually come out with a 300 or 338 Ruger. And when they do, I'll be sending my rifle off to have it barreled to a 325 Ruger. It's just a strange obsession of mine, I just love those .323 diameter bullets. Of course that might be because my first hunting rifle was an 8x57 sporterized mauser.