I know I am going to get slammed for this.....

I haven't used Hoppes #9 since the early '80s, when I fouled out a barrel so bad that not even Sweets could not get the copper out. Back then that was all there was to seriously remove copper, or at least all I knew of. Well, the other day I bought some #9 "for ole times sake". Actually I kind of missed the smell.

Well anyway, I use the Hoppes and found some blue patches coming out after the carbon was out. I swear I never saw any blue patches (indicating copper removal) back in the '80s. In fact my "old school" gunsmith told me that the #9 was originally a black powder solvent and would only remove carbon, at which I promptly read the label, back then. Well he was right, it said nothing about metal fouling removal.

BUT IT DOES NOW!

as long as they dont change the smell it's all I will use

To my knowledge, Hoppes has always removed copper-albeit VERY slowly. If you have the time (a couple of days), Hoppes is a fine copper solvent.

Yup. It has always been a patient man's copper cleaner with the emphasis on Patient. It can be said another way though; it is a man in a hurry's copper cleaner. Run a couple of patches through with #9 to cut the powder fouling and then wet the heck out of the bore with it and leave the rifle upside down until you have time to finish the job. Won't hurt a thing and it will work down the copper on a normal barrel so that a few patches when you have time knocks it out.
Can't do that with Sweets etc. Once you start with an agressive copper cleaner, you have to finish.
best regards,
dmw

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
as long as they dont change the smell it's all I will use

+1

+ 1 on time and Hoppe´s # 9 will do it.

+ 1 on putting the rifle barrel down for the procedure, too!

Hermann

If you have a Borescope you will pitch the Hoppes.

They do have another formula on the market called "bench rest" that has "copper solvent" on the label.

Agree completely with the slow process. Works for me for years with seldom a brush to the barrel. Even plugged the bore on my 700 .270, filled with #9 and went on vacation. No harm, no 'foul".

quote:

Originally posted by MikeMichalski:
Agree completely with the slow process. Works for me for years with seldom a brush to the barrel. Even plugged the bore on my 700 .270, filled with #9 and went on vacation. No harm, no 'foul".

If it makes you feel good then keep using it but if you scope a rifle bore you will find out the ugly truth. People should understand the difference between getting the barrel clean and thinking the barrel is clean. One look with a bore scope is worth a thousand opinions.

Boss Hoss, Understant your point and wish I could afford a bore scope. Been doing the #9 thing for over 50 years and never had a problem with inacurracy, corrosion, pitting, or wear. I not only think well of the procedure but really like the fact that brushes are seldom needed.

I understand but the fact remains that you do not know if you have any of the copper layered between fouling and carbon. Have looked through too many bores of people’s rifles such as yourself only to have them drop their teeth when they had a look for themselves. Also, the old #9 formula did work better according to people who had a bore scope back then but for me it would not do the job with a brush and many overnight sessions of the solvent sitting in the bore.

I too was uneducated and thought Hoppes was the way to go because that’s what my Granddad told me was the best as well as my father. Funny thing is both of them cleaned bores from the muzzle with the bore pointing downward “to keep the solvent out of the action”.

What do you think of Hoppes Elite? Any experience? I've added it to my finish process as someone here said it would keep the first bullet fired in the same place as the last one previously fired. Still testing.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeMichalski:
What do you think of Hoppes Elite? Any experience? ...

I've been using it for 2-3 years and it does a fine job for me. Haven't needed the Foam Bore Cleaner since I began using it.

Most of my bullets are Moly coated, so the opportunity for Copper in the barrel is reduced anyhow. However, I do not Moly coat the bullets for my Lever Actions and they have been getting a good bit of use lately. Cleans them up so the Bore looks like a hall of mirrors.

Also use it in the RimFires with the same fine results.

Mine is in a "Flip-Top" bottle which makes getting it into the Bore and onto the Brush very easy.
-----

On the rifles I use Moly coated bullets in, after cleaning I run a patch with Moly Grease on it through the Bore a few strokes and then follow them with a couple of dry patches to remove any excess.

On the ones that do not get Moly, I use a couple of different Oils and sometimes RIG on a patch to protect the bore, and also follow with a couple of dry patches.

The "First Shot" accuracy and consistency from a pristine clean lightly lubed bore is what I'm interested in.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

Hot Core, Thanks for the response. It is expensive but appears to be pretty good stuff. Are you getting the first shot accuracy and consistancy you're looking for?

Boss Hoss, When you've observed these supposedly clean barrels, what did you see and where did you see it? (carbon, copper, powder residue, etc., lands, groves, throat etc.)

I inherited a 1965 vintage M70 in 30-06 about 6 years ago, that had been shot a lot and cleaned only with Hoppes #9. Best accuracy I could get was 1 3/4". I used Hoppes Benchrest #9, about 1/2 of a small bottle and still no better accuracy.

Enter Wipeout, and after about 14-15 applications, including 2 overnight soaks, this barrel is clean!

This barrel needs 2 fouling shots to shoot it's best. It's sub-moa to about 20 shots, then the groups open up. I'm now using Gunslick foam, and it seems to work better/faster than Wipeout.

k-22hornet, Your observation seems to confirm Boss Hoss experience. Maybe old #9 was better than today's #9.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeMichalski:
... Are you getting the first shot accuracy and consistancy you're looking for?

Yes. But that is also true for any of the current crop of Bore Cleaners I've tried.

I do believe people who mention their "First Shot" always goes to a different place than their following shots. But as long as the second and third shots are relatively close(inside 1MOA and generally at 0.6MOA) from a bench, then I'm ready to go.

As k-22hornet mentioned, I have a 350RemMag, that when using a specific Bullet, begins opening groups after the 6th shot. However, if I use the 200gr Hornady RN or SP, it will retain accuracy up to the point where I've cleaned it. Not real sure how many shots that would have been though, cause I have no problem Cleaning the barrel after a morning Hunt and for sure after an afternoon Hunt. Just part of the routine for me.

I've also had good luck with the Outer's Foaming Bore Cleaner. Here ia a link to a Foaming Bore Cleaner Trick that I made, additional Revisions, and Tricks other folks use. The Foam works real well, but was a bit of a mess for me prior to coming up with these Tricks.

The Foam works great on firearms that have not been cleaned real often, just as k-22hornet mentioned. But, I like to "Scrub" between applications with regular Bore Cleaner. Here is another place where a Bore Scope would be a great help. But I just keep cleaning until the Paper Patches are no longer Blue and the Bore looks like a hall of mirrors.

Hot Core, Thanks for the additional information. I've considered the foaming cleaners but I'm so fumble fingered these days I figured the whole room would get foamed.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeMichalski:
Hot Core, Thanks for the additional information. I've considered the foaming cleaners but I'm so fumble fingered these days I figured the whole room would get foamed.

If you`re worried about the mess, try Patch-Out. It`s the exact same stuff as Wipe-Out but in a liquid form. You short stroke a patch soaked with it, and it foams in the bore just like Wipe-Out.
I gave up on Wipe-Out even though I used it for 3-4 years and had no problems simply due to the ease and no mess application with Patch-Out

Hey Mike, Your welcome.

The Fumble Fingers continues to get worse as we age. I can even break Corelle dishes while washing them, and they can nearly survive a direct hit from a SideWinder missile.

This test should put some of the copper cleaners into perspective. See http://www.thesacskit.com/kg/KG12testresults.asp

I patch with Prolix till patch is clear. Then patch (or brush under a patch for heavy fouling) with JB Bore paste watered down to a paste with Prolix. Flush thoroughly with Prolix and leave wet in bore. All my barrels are sub 1MOA, ando flyer either.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
I understand but the fact remains that you do not know if you have any of the copper layered between fouling and carbon. Have looked through too many bores of people’s rifles such as yourself only to have them drop their teeth when they had a look for themselves. Also, the old #9 formula did work better according to people who had a bore scope back then but for me it would not do the job with a brush and many overnight sessions of the solvent sitting in the bore.

I too was uneducated and thought Hoppes was the way to go because that’s what my Granddad told me was the best as well as my father. Funny thing is both of them cleaned bores from the muzzle with the bore pointing downward “to keep the solvent out of the action”.

What do you use?

Posted 29 June 2010 15:06 Hide Post
This test should put some of the copper cleaners into perspective. See http://www.thesacskit.com/kg/KG12testresults.asp

I patch with Prolix till patch is clear. Then patch (or brush under a patch for heavy fouling) with JB Bore paste watered down to a paste with Prolix. Flush thoroughly with Prolix and leave wet in bore. All my barrels are sub 1MOA, ando flyer either.


Hey Spartan,
Have you used this KG12 product? If it's as good as they say I might try some to compare with Butch's which is what I've used for years now.
Thanks,
Brad

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
I understand but the fact remains that you do not know if you have any of the copper layered between fouling and carbon. Have looked through too many bores of people’s rifles such as yourself only to have them drop their teeth when they had a look for themselves. Also, the old #9 formula did work better according to people who had a bore scope back then but for me it would not do the job with a brush and many overnight sessions of the solvent sitting in the bore.

I too was uneducated and thought Hoppes was the way to go because that’s what my Granddad told me was the best as well as my father. Funny thing is both of them cleaned bores from the muzzle with the bore pointing downward “to keep the solvent out of the action”.

What do you use?

Step 1. Insert Lucas bore guide into receiver and chamber. If you don’t have one stop here and get one, if not, just shoot your rifle and forget trying to take any care of your barrel at all. If you do have one, proceed, and give yourself one “At-A-Boy” for being astute enough to have purchased the proper tools for the job.
Note: One “Aw-Sh*t” wipes out ALL “At-A-Boys”.

Step 2. Run one wet patch of Sweets 7.62 through the bore and let soak for approximately 60 seconds. Do not patch this out.

Step 3. Next, run the brush through the barrel only enough to expose the entire brush. Yes, I know that you still have 12 more inches of cleaning rod you could push out the end of your barrel but we want to protect that new crown. Also, if that rod hangs out that far, you will eventually start wearing down the rifling at the crown from about 4 to 7 o’clock. This is very bad “JU-JU” for accuracy. OK, back to our next step. Once the brush is exposed, saturate it well with Sweets and SLOWLY run the brush through the barrel 10 (or more depending on the fouling amount) complete back and forth passes while keeping the rod as straight as possible. This is when the Lucas bore guide really pays for itself! Remember, the key word is slowly. We are not trying to break any land speed records today. Let this sit a minute or two and proceed to the next step.

Step 4. After you have let the barrel soak for a few moments, saturate a patch with Sweets and pass it through the bore if it is clean good job if not repeat 2 and 3. Follow this with 2 dry patches and then dry the chamber with Brake Cleaner. Next, gently wipe the crown off with a soft cloth and lube your bolt (do not use too much).

D. Final Cleaning Tips -

1. Each time you clean you should follow the last dry patch with a patch soaked with LOCK-EEZ. This is a graphite powder suspended in a quick evaporating carrier that coats the bore slightly before passing that first round through a completely dry bore.

2 The only product I use that really does a good job on powder fouling (will clean everything out including copper), especially on the carbon ring that forms just ahead of where the neck ends in the chamber, is IOSSO Bore Paste. This is used with an IOSSO nylon bristle brush and worked slowly in the neck and throat areas, then slowly down the entire bore for 10 to 20 strokes depending on the fouling level. Follow this up with a few wet patches, then dry the bore as usual, and you’re ready to shoot. The brush will eventually turn black as you pass through the bore repeatedly and use Brake Cleaner or if you have a lot of money Gun Scrubber to clean the brush off (both for this and the Pro Shot phosphor bronze ones) then a blast down the Lucas Bore Guide followed by a patch or two to clean out any remaining IOSSO. Then a patch of Butches Bore Shine followed by 2 dry patches finally followed by a patch of LOCK-EZ.

This is a modified method of what Speedy taught me and it works because --- THE BORE SCOPE DOES NOT LIE!!!

quote:

Originally posted by wistrapper:
Posted 29 June 2010 15:06 Hide Post


Hey Spartan,
Have you used this KG12 product? If it's as good as they say I might try some to compare with Butch's which is what I've used for years now.
Thanks,
Brad

I have used KG12. I think it works well. Make sure you don't leave any material behind - need to flush it completely. Prolix recommend JB's for heavy copper fouling because it doesn't "strip the lining" developed by Prolix. They claim Prolix protects the bore which reduces fouling which, in turn, reduces cleaning time. Personally, I am convinced on the "reduces cleaning time" claim insofar as heavy copper fouling is not involved. So I only use KG12 for extreme fouling. I have not used KG12 on Stainless Barrels.

Has anyone else used these 3 products?

Boss Hoss,
your method is laboriously prescriptive, as though you've spent your whole life researching these matters or do product placement.

For some reason I forget now, Sweets has a bad reputation on another forum. One point I do remember is that some double rifle owners fear it may eat into the solder between the barrels but I guess that could apply to other products, too.

Have you used WipeOut or KG12? Is it possible either could be used in your process?

- Paul

The "old"Hoppe's was designed to deal with the corrosive and Mercuric primers and powders of that day it had chemicals in it that can't be used now.

The reason Sweet's had and still has a dangerous reputation is because it contains a corrosive chemical--ammonia. This is not a problem if the user thoroughly cleans the Sweet's out of the barrel after use. BUT---as anyone who has looked at a lot of other people's bores using a borescope knows--people don't clean their guns worth a damn.


Borescopes are not all that expensive now--certainly you can get fiber optic VO Scope with a 4.8 mm diameter (or larger) online for less than a new rifle scope. Once you do get one it will pay for itself in a few years by saving you money you would have spent for wonder cleaners, when all you needed was a good guide, a good rod, Butch's triple twill patches, any decent solvent and JB bore cleaner.

You can go to Brownell's and read a good article about how to clean using JB - and no it does not wear the bore---don't be silly.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
If you have a Borescope you will pitch the Hoppes.

Glad I read all of the replies because that is exactly what I was going to type when I read the thread title. Hoppe's doesn't remove anything other than a few nose hairs from sniffin it. I'm sure some will disagree but colored patches are one thing, borescopes are another.

Sorry Amamnn,
It wasn't me who asked about JB wearing the barrel - until a minute ago I'd never seen it.

I did own some Butch's solvent for a month last year, though, and it smelt like ammonia, so assume it needs the same care as with Sweet's.

Thinking of that trip, I'm now a little worried that silicon cloth cleaners might add a grey patina to titanium nitrite on receivers. Any thoughts, anyone?

- Paul

Finally got some time to test some of the cleaning solvents suggested and I must say, with some sadness, that Hoppe's no longer "gets out the copper". Using my preferred technique (no brushes only patches until they come out clean after overnight soaking) the best results with the minimum elbow grease required comes from Wipe-Out Patch-Out. I'm also testing Hoppe's Elite as a final cleaning before shooting. It has been suggested that Elite tends to have the clean gun shoot to the same spot as before cleaning. So far this is testing appears promising.

Thanks to you all for the information and advice and the patience to put up with an old fart kinda stuck in his ways. I've retired and now using another computed and had to get a new name: Mike Michalski instead of MikeMichalski

Those who want better than 1MOA groups might find some useful info in the following.

There is no free lunch--with certain reservations to be detailed later--all those brushless wonders go right in the ____can with the #9. Do yourself a favor and take your "clean" gun to a gunsmith who has a borescope, if you will not buy one yourself. Personally, I cannot see how or why anyone who is seriously pursuing accuracy in riflery would elect to NOT buy a borescope now that they are so cheap, but then I did not buy a Pinto or a pet rock or a mood ring and plenty of allegedly serious people did.

In the past year or so-- much was made of the fact that BR superhero Tony Boyer was using patch out on his rifles between relays. If you actually read his book you'll find that he uses a tight bronze brush with it--and a nylon brush and JB or ISSO...................

One thing that the "wonder cleaners" do that elbow grease does not--is in some cases of extreme fouling -give you a false "all clear" sign in that at some point they appear to show a clean patch, indicating no more fouling. In reality, what they have done is to either harden the fouling so it does not come out on the patch or chemically bond with the fouling to give a clear patch indication. I've seen this inside several barrels that required multiple applications of wonder cleaner before the clear patch was obtained--at that point a look inside revealed the sad truth. A bronze brush a good cleaner and some elbow grease would have had the barrel clean in one session, while the wonder cleaner still had NOT done the job.


There may be millions of people who have the time to fill their barrels full of chemicals and stand them in the closet for weeks or months-- and there may be chemicals that work just fine that way--myself-- I don't have time for that---there can be a VERY short time between relays at a match and even if I am shooting just for fun I might want to shoot tomorrow too.

For some reason, my relatives like to give me chemicals to clean my rifles--birthdays father's days --Xmas--arbor day--mule haunch day----maybe they just like to torture me --or in the case of my son--a BR shooter with no borescope--get some free testing done. so I have had the chance to try: Hoppe's #9 in all three incarnations (the original I bought myself way back when) Hoppe's ELite in the liquid and the gel, all the KG products, all the Shooter's Choice products, Butch's bore shine, Wipe Out, Patch out, with Accelerator (wowie Zowie) Bore Tech Eliminator, another Bore Tech that I can't remember, (I guess it bored me) ISSO, JB bore cleaner, JB bore shine, Hanna Montana, Sweet's, Barnes and a couple local products for removing copper fouling..

The following are the products my borecope revealed as effective against heavy fouling of ALL kinds without the use of a good brush (refer again to TB's book) in my barrels and a few of my friend's barrels:

1-JB bore cleaner
2-ISSO


The following were effective when used with a nylon brush only:

get it?

No? here they are again:


All of the above listed cleaners worked just fine for all fouling --with the exception of those listed by the manufacturer as being specifically designed for carbon cleaning-- when used with a proper for caliber bronze brush and used in a timely manner--that is, I did not let the barrel sit for 5 months after firing 200 rounds through it.

I have probably had more opportunity to try more cleaners in more barrels that --I don't know who--over a relatively short time. I am still learning things about barrels. A couple of things I have taken to heart after being shown the (hopefully former) error of my ways is that again there is no free lunch--you have to use elbow grease to clean a barrel--that has not changed in lo these hundreds of years--and that anyone who says he knows his barrel is clean- without using a LOT of elbow grease -and has not seen it through a borescope--is a fool.

LOVE IT!!!! The Bore Scope does not lie!!!!!!!!

Best tool I have---if you don't have one you are wasting time and energy in your cleaning process period end of story....

Amamnn,
What kind of bore scope do you have?

Funny thing is there were excellent BR shooters long before all the whiz bang juices and bore scopes came along. The trouble with a bore scope is it cannot measure the thickness of the copper color. A lot of folks chase the copper right to the bottom of the tool marks taking off steel to get at it.

And at what point do you stop cleaning with a bore scope ?

In reality, apart from BR, how clean does a firearm have to be if it's only going to get dirty again tomorrow ?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
And at what point do you stop cleaning with a bore scope ?

In reality, apart from BR, how clean does a firearm have to be if it's only going to get dirty again tomorrow ?

Clean enough to hold the groups together for more than just a couple of salvos. I don't like not having any idea when the accuracy is going to go bad.

Boy, has this thread wobbled off course.

There was someone selling some sort of reverse electrolysis setup for copper removal awhile back. Anyone ever tried it? Seemed like too much screwing around to me.