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http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/s...=2011-12-20-17-50-11 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | ||
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It takes all kinds, and you can't fix stupid! I was taught what goes up must come down...somewhere. Never shoot up! Drugs or guns! We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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Firing in the air was a big no no but can a muzzle loader shoot 1.5 miles away? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I had the same question. Over 2,500 yards is a long way even for 20th century military rifles using smokeless powders to shoot streamlined bullets without boat-tails. (1.5 miles = 2,640 yards). I sure hope they do some forensic ballistics in this investigation. I'd hate to see that Amish shooter hung out to dry for something he might have THOUGHT he did, but didn't actually do. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Maybe some of you need a little history lesson, 45-70 balistics aren't much different than a muzzle loader. http://home.earthlink.net/~sha...yHook/SandyHook.html | |||
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That would depend on the particular muzzle loader in question, the projectile used, and the propellant charge. I doubt the ballistics of a patched 45 cal round ball fired with black would be anywhere near the ballistics of the 45-70s used in the SandyHook tests. | |||
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There are some sabot systems for muzzle loaders with boat tailed plastic tip bullets that have load data close to 2200 fps. Given favorable conditions that would be more than adequate to make 2500 yds. That area is hilly, too so 2500 yds on the ground may not be near that much if its up or down hill. Also, may not be particularly accurate reporting. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Craigster - That's why I hope they do some thorough forensics before leaping to hang this Amish guy. We have no information in our news so far other than a report that he voluntarily reported to authorities having fired his gun into the air a mile and a half away. I doubt very seriously if either my .58 or .69 caliber muzzle loaders will shoot their round balls much if any distance over a mile, if that far...and that with a 100 grain powder charge in either one. And unless he was shooting a conical bullet with a decent ballistic coefficient, I really still wonder if his would either? It would be nice if the news folks knew enough about shooting to at least report what caliber of rifle he was using, and whether he was shooting round ball or conical bullets. I don't expect them to know or care what his powder charge was too. It wouldn't be nearly as good a news story if they couldn't point their finger at this "hunter" and blame him. And, heaven knows, "THE STORY" is the really important thing these days, isn't it? | |||
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Yep, this happened just a few miles from our house and the newspapers have been filled with it since. They have people coming in to do the math and see if this is what happened. I'm sure we will hear more. | |||
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Goose, please keep us current on the findings, Cal30 If it cant be Grown it has to be Mined! Devoted member of Newmont mining company Underground Mine rescue team. Carlin East,Deep Star ,Leeville,Deep Post ,Chukar and now Exodus Where next? Pete Bajo to train newbies on long hole stoping and proper blasting techniques. Back to Exodus mine again learning teaching and operating autonomous loaders in the underground. Bringing everyday life to most individuals 8' at a time! | |||
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AC - Hopefully they won't try to hang him, maybe try to find him guilty of negligence of some sort. A tragic accident, indeed. But you are right, it's all about stories to grab headlines and boost ratings. Maybe we've got a poster here in the neighborhood of Holmes County who could update us on how it plays out. I'd like to hear, as ol' Paul used to say, "the rest of the story." | |||
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We DO have a member in the neighborhood! Thanks Goose, and keep us posted! | |||
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Nothing new in the newspaper yet. I would certainly guess the Christmas holiday has slowed down the court system. They did have a big funeral for the girl. Our Amish neighbors new her but just don't say much about the incident. Keeping my ear to the ground on this. | |||
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What a sad happening. This is one reason that I do not hunt squirrels with a 22 LR. In todays World I just not feel safe shooting any rifle toward the sky. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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can't you just let go of this and find something else to discuss? | |||
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Very simple--yes this was tragic!!! You do the crime you do the time. The person who pulled the trigger is 100% responsible for where the projectile went. The law is what the law is in that state and only time will tell. | |||
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Very simple to you - maybe. This is something that can be made very complicated, in the media and the variety of ideaologies out there, and the courts. If you think the law is the law, then you are the one that's simple. What ought to be, and reality is often very subjective. Words alone, no matter how well written, or well intended, in the normal course of their meaning, are insufficient, because the law is what some liberal judge says it is, which makes it variable. And to fight that, makes ruined lives, takes money, time, lawyers, appeal, and still you don't know how it may turn out. You can't tell based on simply reading the words of the law. That's the way it works in this country, and there are all kinds of whiners out there that say things like it's the best that can be done, and chit like that, yet they support liberal judicial intrepretation and discretion, or are ignorant as to its consequenses. As to time will tell - maybe. Hopefully it's already told, and done. From what we know it was a stupid accident, and unintentional. Who said it was a crime? It may be or maybe not, IMO it's not up to us to speculate about - that's too much. That kind of stuff happens every day, with automobiles, etc. but when it happens with a firearm, there are plenty of those same whiners who will make it into something it isn't. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Yes, and an honest man came forward and said he thought he MIGHT be the one who did it, and might therefore be responsible. But we don't know that he fired the fatal bullet until thorough forensic studies have been completed. Until that is done, all we know for sure is that SOMEONE launched that bullet. from some kind of a gun, somewhere. The press assumes it was the fellow who came forward, and maybe it was. But to convict him in the press and in public comments is premature, and may be unjust, until we know for sure. | |||
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Sorry but your eloquent attempt to make whatever point you were attempting to is pretty thin. Bottom line if it can be proven he pulled the trigger then he needs to go to the big house. I intend on sending a letter to the State to encourage the prosecution of the idiot ! Poor sap should have thought about where the bullet would come down---could care less if he is sorry but he was negligent period end of story. Hopefully the little girl who had her life taken will get justice in this matter.. | |||
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As a wannabe attorney, (or judge) perhaps the attached links will help you write your letter, so at least you ask for the right thing, and use correct terms and legal concepts. A guy should at least appear as though he knows what he is talking (or ranting) about. Oh, BTW, perhaps you should go light in your letter, re facts, because you don't know all of them anyway. It might make you look a bit silly, and we wouldn't want that. Worst case, they may launch the black heli and come looking for you, especially if being an idiot is a crime. Good luck with your conviction. (pun intended - three ways) I searched, but was not able to find anywhere within the law that being an idiot is a crime. Perhaps you are in luck, or will have better luck with your research. Keep us posted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligent_homicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter From Wikipedia: Constructive manslaughter is also referred to as ‘unlawful act’ manslaughter. It is based on the doctrine of constructive malice, whereby the malicious intent inherent in the commission of a crime is considered to apply to the consequences of that crime. It occurs when someone kills, without intent, in the course of committing an unlawful act. The malice involved in the crime is transferred to the killing, resulting in a charge of manslaughter. For example, a person who runs a red light in their vehicle and hits someone crossing the street could be found to intend or be reckless as to assault or criminal damage (see DPP v Newbury[12]). There is no intent to kill, and a resulting death would not be considered murder, but would be considered involuntary manslaughter. The accused's responsibility for causing death is constructed from the fault in committing what might have been a minor criminal act. http://definitions.uslegal.com/n/negligent-death/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_death_claim ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Latest news postings say no charges filed. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Why didn't that idiot think of shooting into the ground. Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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Has it been determined whether or not the deadly bullet was fired by the "gun cleaner"? | |||
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You really have no idea about my background however; it is the criminal aspect that is of most interest and yes it will be harder to convict in criminal court vs a civil one (preponderance of the evidence). You only go to jail in one of those as well as not being able to own a firearm—care to guess which one lol.. Keep using Google to learn how the legal system works someday you will get there lol. | |||
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My point is that it doesn't mater what your background is, or whether I know it or not, and I don't care if it was a supreme court justice. It's all speculation in the public arena, unless you are involve in the investigation. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I have to agree with KB...and it's pretty much de rigueur to start jumping around, squalling like a stuck pig over something the press put out and USUALLY screwed up or got wrong in the first place. Does ANYONE believe ANYTHING they read in the media??? If you do, you're in deep "stuff" without a clue. How much garbage like this has been posted on these forums, cause a bunch of little boy tantrums, and was later found out to be totally bogus. NO ONE will know for certain just what happened until ALL the facts are in and thoroughly studied. Shooting into the air is a no-no as far as I'm concerned but shooting ANY direction without a backstop is just as ignorant and I've seen that happen many times...or shooting at rocks, metal plates, and flat surfaces like water... what/where the bullet goes/happens doesn't stop too many shooters and actually turns a bunch of them into slobbering piles of pudnocking toe jams. NOBODY..unless they are directly involved in the investigation...knows squat doodly about this "ACCIDENT" and what the press says about it is highly suspect from the gitgo. Luck | |||
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My father once told me a story about an accident he had while cleaning my grandfathers muzzle loading shotgun.The gun went off and he nearly killed his sister.He then covered the hole in the wall with a picture frame being scared to death should his father find out. | |||
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And that's one reason I am nervous around muzzleloaders. It is easier to assume they are unloaded. Heaven knows how many civil war muzzleloaders were fired accidentally after they had been hanging over doorways or fireplace mantles for many years. Up until about WWII, it seemed as if one was always reading about such an occurance. That's one reason collectors of Civil War memorabilia were often cautioned in the shooting press as to how to judge if a ML rifle MIGHT still be loaded, and to aim it in a safe direction if they were going to snap the hammer, even if they personally remembered having unloaded it at some time in the past. So far we don't know that this guy truly fired the fatal shot, or that firing the gun at all was intentional or accidental. Until then, all we are doing is shaking our collective heads and then "piling onto" some guy who is not present to tell us exactly what he did or didn't do. And even he cannot yet be absolutely certain it was HIS specific bullet that killed that poor girl. Once more, I think we ought to wait until the forensic studies are available to the public, if ever. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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I AGREE with this comment. But considering the range in which it was reported It may not have been him who did it. Very strange things [Even stranger than this has happened] happen Lets just keep an open mind for now as it Gives ALL FIREARMS OWNERS A BIG BLACK EYE! Just keep an open mind. Let the experts give a [Hopefully] honest opinion. Cal30 If it cant be Grown it has to be Mined! Devoted member of Newmont mining company Underground Mine rescue team. Carlin East,Deep Star ,Leeville,Deep Post ,Chukar and now Exodus Where next? Pete Bajo to train newbies on long hole stoping and proper blasting techniques. Back to Exodus mine again learning teaching and operating autonomous loaders in the underground. Bringing everyday life to most individuals 8' at a time! | |||
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Had another big article about this in the paper this morning. The Ohio Bureau of Criminal I dentification & Investigation still doing the ballistics work on this. The name of the shooter has not been released but most of the Amish community know who he is. | |||
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What about this one!! No excuses--find them and fry them. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012...injured-florida-boy/ | |||
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There is just too much speculation and missing information regarding this case. That said, it is of the utmost importance that the facts are discovered. So far, the sheriff has implicated a man that may have zero to do with the girls death. There is no mention whether the discharge was accidental or the man "cleaning" his muzzle loader intentionally fired into the air. No ballistics report on whether it is even possible for the said muzzle loader to shoot that distance or what the properties of the projectile which struck the girl are. Hey Hoss, why don't you just tell us what your legal background is? If you are hunting and one of your bullets glances off a tree, killing another hunter, are you willing to give up all you have? How about if your bullet goes through your animal and kills another which you didn't see, you going to confess to poaching and lose your rights as a hunter? Hey Idaho, do you think the girl would "rest in peace" if an innocent man was wrongfully convicted of her death and no effort is made to discover what really happened? This is an important case for all of us. | |||
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Have accidently shot 2 turkeys with one shot many years ago but we have 2 tags here. I pull the trigger I am responsible period end of discussion. Does not matter what it hits. I will tell you this ---- if you are shooting in my state and you send a bullet across the fence line and it hits a tree on my property then you can be charged with trespassing. Already had that happen with the idiot that has property behind us. Thought his pistol range because it was on his property was ok BUT he was not aware of the law. The nice Sheriff’s Deputy was very kind to point out that he would be going with him next time if he continued to sent bullets across the fence. If there was an accident I would retain Counsel and go from there. Laws are different in every state. Mull on that one for a while. | |||
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Any updates?? Cal30 If it cant be Grown it has to be Mined! Devoted member of Newmont mining company Underground Mine rescue team. Carlin East,Deep Star ,Leeville,Deep Post ,Chukar and now Exodus Where next? Pete Bajo to train newbies on long hole stoping and proper blasting techniques. Back to Exodus mine again learning teaching and operating autonomous loaders in the underground. Bringing everyday life to most individuals 8' at a time! | |||
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Any updates? | |||
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Well looks like justice will be served for those above who were in doubt!! I guess Kabluewy is crying in his beer right now. Oh well maybe he will ponder this and give his thoughts now. | |||
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Nuts - total charlie foxtrot. Don't get me wrong, he shouldn't have discharged the weapon into the air. But "Reckless Homicide"? Does the punishment fit the crime??? This is an example of where repentance, forgiveness & compassion should stand in front! friar Our liberties we prize, and our rights we will maintain. | |||
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He can ride his little wagon all the way to the Grey Bar Hotel! If it were your little girl you might think different. | |||
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I'll bet it'll come down to peading guilty to involuntary manslaughter. Regardless, it's a tragedy for all involved. | |||
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