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They say never let a good crisis go to waste . . . why not use this shitstorm as an opportunity to work on lining up a future booking.  Mike | |||
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  May be paid for by the non refundable trophy fees!  | |||
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I'd probably pick another time of the year but that's just me. But you keep stating "top dollar". CMS's Dande concession buffalo hunts are not "top dollar". At least not compared to the Save or Nykasanga. I've found the Dande hunts priced relative to the type of hunting you find there ... which can be difficult depending on the time of year. I'll tell you what I have done with them. A late season (October) lion hunt where due to conditions on the ground, I needed to extend a few days TWICE in order to get the cat on bait. Didn't quit. I also did an early hunt for leopard with them where it rained several days causing our baits to go off. Shot that cat on day 13 of a 14 day hunt. Didn't quit. Lastly, did a very late season hunt for ele bull. Expected the rains to hit causing the temps to drop. Brought the wife on that one. Rains were late that year so the temps were in the 120's and higher. Scheduled for 10 days with 2 days fishing. Canned the fishing due to conditions on the ground and shot my bull on day 11. Again, didn't quit. But what I won't do now is hunt with you Andrew. Your piling on a fellow operator whom you know to have a stellar reputation is in poor taste. Kind of like when my son's stomach issue flared up 2 days before we were to depart on a CMS buffalo hunt in 2019 and I decided to go anyway so as not to cost CMS 2 buffalo sold to me on quota. Your comment was "the difference between you and me is I would never leave my son behind if he was sick". This comment about a young man who at the time was 29 years old and had been living and earning a living on his own for the past 7 years. It rubbed me wrong when you said it and seeing how you are piling onto Buzz now ... well let's say that current request for a buffalo hunt quote I have in your PM's can be disregarded. Merry Christmas everyone. | |||
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. . . as I alluded to above Todd, I think some see this shitstorm as a business development opportunity. Disappointing. Mike | |||
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As you said earlier Saeed, some people can't deal with the truth even when it smacks them in the face. The truth is CMS got burned on reserved quota in an area that isn't their concession. They had a couple of clients reserve quota, which CMS paid for, only to have the clients cancel their interest in those animals, leaving Buzz and Miles out the fee. I think asking the client to pay for the reservation is completely reasonable given the circumstances. They don't and have never had that policy for the areas where they have exclusive rights to the concession. You can think of it as a "special order" to hunt that area. In my home building business, we've recently had similar issues. One, the clients ordered "gothic" windows. Special order taking 6 months to get. We had to front the entire cost of the windows ($18,000) in order to get them built. The client subsequently decided they couldn't afford the house after it was completely framed, electrical and HVAC roughed in, and plumbing topped out. When this happened, we still had about 10 weeks before the windows would be ready to deliver. The window company wouldn't cancel the order or refund the money. The way the client dealt with deciding they can't afford the house was to just cease speaking with the bank or acknowledge our invoices for work performed to date. We went through a law suit over it and won a 6 figure judgement ... of which we'll never see a penny. It's taken 10 months but the bank finally foreclosed on the incomplete house and hired us to finish it. Our company has been out the entire $18,000 window order fee since October of last year. As a result, we made the decision that we will no longer place any special orders unless the clients draw from their construction loan, 100% of the item's cost. I don't blame CMS at all for the policy. I know they rescinded the policy but it was reasonable. You don't seem to acknowledge that they reversed their policy on the matter after further consideration, nor the reason behind it. That's the truth for you Sir! More truth for you is that your complaint about Buzz's Christmas email wasn't the TF policy, but blurred faces in the photos. Buzz explained to you that one of his clients previously lost his job from a hunting photo. Most of us don't live in the same financial world you do Saeed. Most of us need our jobs for our livelihood to support our families. I recently posted a photo of a deer I shot in the American Hunting forum. I also shared a photo of the ranch manager who shot a nice deer the day before me. I cropped out his face because I don't know his status regarding hunting photo exposure on the internet. I suspect some of CMS's clients are fine with showing their faces and some are not. The safest route for them is to blur the faces, or post photos without the client. That may be the better avenue to take but really, is that such an issue for you that you would turn on Buzz? A man you know and know to be an outstanding outfitter as well as an honorable man? With friends like that ... well, you know the rest! | |||
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What Todd said.... I am in the middle of remodeling a 1980's home to be a retirement home in Ft. Worth. This project has lasted a year. I told the builder that I "I pay as we go" with progress payments and progress proven. It has worked great. I did prepay over $50,000 for windows and tile as these items were long lead time. They were non-returnable and non-cancelable. I knew that going in and was fine with it. On "stuff" like this, advance payment is needed and expected. I do this with Jason Roussos with Ethiopian Rift Safaris as Ethiopia requires permits be bought up front. Jason gets a small premium (I think but am not sure) on this and charges a hefty daily rate. This is all discussed and known in the agreement and in conversations. I personally have no issue with it because 1) I want to hunt there and those are the rules, 2) it makes me a little more dialed in to hunting hard as I do not want to leave money on the table. So, if you don't like that, then you don't go to Ethiopia or Tajikistan or Mexico sheep/mule deer or Alaska or Canada or the USA or several other places where you pay everything up front and hope/hunt for the best. So, for Tanzania, where Saeed and others like to hunt, the rules are different and very irritating to me. I do not like the sliding scale of days required to hunt (and pay for) in order to get access to the quota or animals I hope to hunt. I have hunted there once, had a great PH but a very average hunt compared to Zim, Zambia, Namibia, Uganda, Cameroon and Ethiopia. I get it that Tanz is the "holy grail" but it is not for me due to the pricing structure. I just don't like it and don't have to go there. Saeed goes there as it suits him and his group. To each his own. As to pay by the inch, as you do in Europe, same thinking applies. If you don't like it, don't go. I like it and prefer it as I like to go "big" and it seems if you don't mind paying, the guides will put you on "big". That was the case for an Alpine Ibex I took. I thought I took "big" until I saw another hunter that wanted "gi-normous" and got it. I failed to hold out for megatron, but was very happy. Anyway, Buzz etal has a fine outfit and works hard to deliver. I hope he keeps posting here but understand the issue. As to posting here, I got off the Political Forum as the bulk of the noise there was anti USA. I am fine with that, but where is the anti Russia or China or whatever? Are we that easy of a target for those that don't live here and love to bash our version of freedom. I don't seen folks lined up to get into any country that is not free. Anyway, in life on this earth, you get what you pay for. If you want to do it, you pay for it. If not, stay home or shoot culls in your back yard.... | |||
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So many excuses I see posted here for behavior on the outfitter's part that would be beneath a crooked used car salesman. I was a hunter who had never been to Zimbabwe before, much less to what I now know as the worst CMS concession in the Zambezi Valley. I relied on the outfitter to pick the area that would give me the best opportunity for two buffalo in the early season, or as is always understood, to recommend another time if that was a better option. Remember that this outfitter touted his worst concession in the early season as an easy place and time to hunt and kill two buffalo. Pretty much a sure thing. Now, I have shot a bunch of buffalo in July in great buffalo areas, so my suspicions were not running as high as perhaps they should have been. But I did have doubts, and did express them, about hunting early. I know that in the early season the bush can be thick and green and even impenetrable - depending on the area. So, I asked the outfitter if early in the season in this concession could really be that good. I was told that July would be fine. And that June, even early June, would be just as good, if not better, because the bulls would still be with the herds and easy to locate! And needless to say, no mention was ever made by the outfitter of problems in this area with poachers. Just like a used car salesman will never tell you about the sawdust in the transmission. Not until I saw with my own eyes the overwhelming evidence of the impenetrable bush and rampant poaching in this area did the hopeless nature of it become clear to me. The buffalo were there, but they were nervous wrecks and would not stop running until they were hunkered down deep in the thorns. It was more like hunting frightened mice than dangerous game! Was I naive? Should I have done more homework? Should I have trusted the used car salesman? Obviously, the answers are yes, yes and no. But I let his reputation suppress my usually well-tuned bullshit detector. Now, imagine a hunter new to African hunting, who wants to go to a great area for buffalo, and needs advice. Imagine that same hunter who, unlike me, can't afford to drop tens of thousands of dollars on an unsuccessful hunt, a hunt that for this hunter might be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Imagine that same hunter who, also unlike me, has not killed more than his share of buffalo on many African safaris, and who will have many more safaris, God willing. No, imagine that same hunter who is instead concerned that this safari, the one he has been planning his entire adult life, may be his only chance. In posting the hunt report of my unsuccessful safari with CMS on AR, I hope I may have done that hunter, and other hunters like him, a service. I have posted many hunting reports on AR over the years, and they have featured successes and failures - the good with the bad, and even the ugly, from time to time. I wish that more hunters would do that. But of course, there is a risk in doing so, a price one may have to pay. I knew that personal attacks would come my way after I posted this hunt report on AR, especially from the fanboys and cheap shot artists, and maybe even worse, from those who claim to know better, even though they were not there, and have no idea what they are talking about. I don't care. I can take the heat and will not be leaving the kitchen. I truly do value AR as an open hunting forum, free from censorship, and would not have it any other way. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Fascinating this. THE TRUTH? You seem to have difficulty appreciating what the truth IS. You sided with that crookidest of all idiots hunting Africa, Mark Sullivan. Despite all the evidence of showing him to be what he is. You go hunting multiple times. So there is not much difference between you and me in having a disposable income. I have met both Buzz and Andrew, and I do have the greatest respect for both of them, despite what is going on here now. But, the clincher is, I would be more than happy to hunt with Andrew, and would never set foot in a camp run by CMS safaris! Andrew has not come with an utterly stupid idea of treating his clients as untrustworthy crooks. Buzz did. On several occasions, I was in Africa where I did not have enough money to pay for everything we are shooting. And it was NOT with either Roy or Alan, but with other professional hunters. I asked if we could shoot more, and pay them when I got home. Everyone agreed, it was a verbal, gentlemanly agreement. Those outfits trusted me as a client, and I went home and sent the money to them. Both sides were very happy, and both sides would be more than happy to do it again. Demanding a NON REFUNFABLE TROPHY fee is the most ridiculous, unacceptable condition an outfit put out. I will say it again, Buzz keeping quiet about this so far after his "I am leaving because members object to my stupid rules" bit, is not helping his company. Imagine a hunter who has saved for years to go hunting in Africa. He pays his NON REFUNDABLE trophy fees, and end up like Mike in an area where there are no trophies to shoot? What happens to him? CMS then says "tough luck mate, your money is ours. You have agreed it is NON REFUNDABLE" This is nothing short of day light robbery. Whether it is applied to Musk or Joe Public. | |||
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More whining? Man up and accept a little personal responsibility. Let’s see now. You claim now that you didn’t do your due diligence despite being an experienced hunter. Then you missed. Then you regretted taking the shot you missed. Then you quit. But it’s all Buzz’s fault . . . and you being the only unsuccessful buffalo hunter in Dande East this season. Sheesh.  Mike | |||
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Andrew, I want to thank you publicly for your kind words above, so I hope you will accept my thanks, and Lindy's as well. You have always been a consummate gentleman, and fair and honest, and indeed utterly above the least reproach, in all of our personal and business dealings. We will likewise gladly hunt with you again, and hope to do so soon, God willing. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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More name calling and making cute little but essentially asinine remarks? Truly beneath contempt. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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. . . mission accomplished Andrew. Mike | |||
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No blow is too low or shot too cheap for you, is it? Pathetic. Please go back to the Political Forum, where you apparently live these days. Disgraceful. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Merry Christmas, Buzz and Myles. Congratulations on a great 2022 season! Looking forward to visiting with you in Dallas. Bill | |||
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You will have to try and accept my apologies Todd as my statement was simply my opinion about a supposed child and not a slur. On this thread, I have made fair statements but sided with Micheal who I know and who I have hunted with, and can vouch for his character. CMS is an excellent safari operation and is held in high esteem by many. I as a PH have always admired the consistent trophy quality they provide for their hunters. I felt the stab in the newsletter was uncalled for and unprofessional. We all have friends on the forum and it is human nature to support them. I hope you understand this. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Collective punishment never worked, and never will. It is like banning guns, because a criminal used one to kill someone. | |||
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Mike that was below the belt as I thought was the comment in the newsletter. My comments as a PH have been fair and I have always supported CMS and Buzz on this forum and beyond and like many will continue to do so. But likewise, I also will support those who I have spent time with and found to be of solid character. I agree that the early season can be tough and I certainly would have pushed on to the end if I was pre-warned of the expectations. For some of us hunting spooky shadows in dense thickets is exhilarating if that was how the hunt was sold. I have screwed up many times but so far have managed to sort it out with a handshake, a promise, and a few cold beers. Siding with Micheal or CMS is not about business opportunities but rather speaking ones mind. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Exactly! And if you tell the truth, we don't like it?? This whole shit storm could have been avoided if Buzz did not come here and post that he has had enough of the rest of us because some have objected to his company's unacceptable behavior! Treating your clients as untrustworthy crooks is not going to hold any water, with the majority of hunters. He realized his mistake, and thankfully corrected it. He then posts pictures with everyone's face blurred - including those who have no shame of showing themselves with their animals. I brought this up, and some members agreed it was something they did not like to see either. It would have been a very simple thing to say it is our policy NOT to show clients faces. That would have been the end of it. Their company, their clients, and no one's business. But no. He had to blame everyone else here for objecting to what we see as unacceptable behavior. As Andrew rightly mentioned above, every single one of us, including me, state our opinions. If that is unacceptable to anyone, tough luck. Whether you are a client or an outfitter, you HAVE to stand behind your word. Members here have an incredible amount of experience, and someone trying to fiddle with the truth is not, repeat, NOT, is going to be protected from others to voice their opinions. They do that on websites where you pay the owners, and get "protection" Bloody hell, that is beginning to sound like being in the Mafia! No one pays a penny here. And every member is treated exactly the same. | |||
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Saeed, have you ever read about "Forced Compliance Theory"? | |||
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No. And the only theory I work with is the common sense theory! Been in business for many years, and I know that one cannot take his clients for fools. I don’t do it. And I don’t like it being done to me. Common sense. I apply to others what I would accept being applied to me. Nothing else. | |||
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Unfortunately that was never Mike's intent with his post. Worse he took advantage of Buzz's attempts to make amends and only backtracked when he got called out on it. I went on an elephant hunt several years ago with a very respected outfitter in another southern African country. There were a host of issues experienced on the hunt that left me upset. I voiced those issues to the outfitter at the time and when I got home I wrote the outfitter a long letter detailing my concerns. The outfitter and I were able to resolve our issues and the hunt and the issues associated with the hunt were never aired publicly. I am sure the outfitter has had many happy and satisfied clients since then. On the other hand some appear to prefer the more vindictive and spiteful approach of getting home and then using a public forum as a way to air their grievances and take a pound of the outfitter's hide. Oh, they wrap their comments up as intending to be a great public service, a lesson to others, but make no mistake the purpose of their comments is to harm the outfitter. That strikes me a deceitful. Particularly when someone has already availed themself of the outfitter's efforts to make amends. Sorry that's the way I see this situation. So now we have an outfitter with a list of satisfied clients as long as your arm who has his character impugned by one client that comes home from an unsuccessful hunt and decides to use a public forum to vent his frustration. If others think that is the proper way to handle things, that's their prerogative. I don't. Mike | |||
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This is ridiculous. You run the full gamut ranging from petty mischaracterizations to outright lies. God forbid that anything untoward about a hunting outfitter, his marketing tactics and substandard operation be made public, right? As I say, ridiculous. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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A mention of deceitful has been made. Wouldn’t charging a non refundable trophy fee, and then finding there are no trophies to shoot, be deceitful? | |||
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. . . we'll never know will we since that arrangement was never implemented. Mike | |||
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You quote On the other hand some appear to prefer the more vindictive and spiteful approach. If others think that is the proper way to handle things, that's their prerogative. I don't. They say never let a good crisis go to waste . . . why not use this shitstorm as an opportunity to work on lining up a future booking. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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It was. If it wasn’t no one would have complained about it. And the utterly STUPID, BRAINLESS, idiots who came with it would have charged clients for trophies that probably did not exist! We can all take that argument into several directions. Why bring up in the first instance? Oh, I know, someone booked an animal and he decided not to shoot it. Do we ask for a refund for animals promised, and charged a daily fee for, if we don’t find them?? | |||
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Really, it was implemented? Please share with us any hunter that per that arrangement prepaid his trophy fee and then went on his hunt and found no trophies to shoot. You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.  Mike | |||
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What is implemented? Do you if any client took them on it? I hope not. It would have been an utterly stupid client who did. Even more stupid than an outfitter who asked for it! | |||
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A nice year end news letter. Pictures were good representatives of animals taken. Form something simple as the new letter sure has grown many different legs and is running in different directions. If a different topic was needed a new chat should have been started. What started out as a nice apple has turned in to rotten fruit. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "You've got the strongest hand in the world. That's right. Your hand. The hand that marks the ballot. The hand that pulls the voting lever. Use it, will you" John Wayne | |||
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Exactly! And all caused by the same poster! | |||
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As I posted somewhere “the good the bad and the ugly”. AR is undoubtedly the best unaltered site for one to be apart of. Thanks Saeed | |||
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I have no horse in this race and know none of the people involved. I will say it has turned into an absolute shitshow and that a number of you should be ashamed of yourselves. Maybe a more relevant title for this thread would have been “ How to ruin an internet forum” and I’m not aiming that comment at CMS. The hunting imperative was part of every man's soul; some denied or suppressed it, others diverted it into less blatantly violent avenues of expression, wielding clubs on the golf course or racquets on the court, substituting a little white ball for the prey of flesh and blood. Wilbur Smith | |||
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You are very welcome. CMS have shit in their own house, and blame it on others. They are not denied an opportunity to say what they wish. It is EXACTLY this fact that put them where they are now. THEY opened the can of worms. THEY are the only ones who can clean the mess. Don't come up with a totally unacceptable condition, and when the proverbial shit hits the fan, blame your very own shortcoming on others. | |||
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Did Michael pay a non refundable trophy fee? Do we know if anyone else did? My understanding is that the non refundable trophy fee policy is no longer in place. Is that correct? If that is the case then I’d assume that with hindsight CMS decided it wasn’t a good idea. If the policy is no longer in force then why are we still talking about it? Water under the bridge. I would be loathe to pay a non refundable fee myself unless the circumstances were very special and that would mean a trophy species far more rare than a cape buffalo and a situation where the outfitter themselves had to pay up front. It seems to me that both Michael and CMS would have been well advised to sort this out somewhere other than on an internet forum. Not every hunt goes according to plan but sometimes arrangements can be made whereby both parties end up winners. In this case it appears that both have lost. The hunting imperative was part of every man's soul; some denied or suppressed it, others diverted it into less blatantly violent avenues of expression, wielding clubs on the golf course or racquets on the court, substituting a little white ball for the prey of flesh and blood. Wilbur Smith | |||
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It does not matter! This whole shit storm was created by Buzz because he is complaining that members of AR do not like what he has put into effect for his company. It would have been much easier to state what had happened, realize that it was not working, and that is the end of it. Blurring faces is the second of his gripes. He could have said we have made mistakes, and we have learned our lesson, that this is not acceptable, and that would have been the end of it. But he did not. He basically blamed ME and AR for the shit storm that he has created. And there is no way in hell I will allow that without a response. He can still fix it. | |||
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Wow!! From a great end of season newsletter , We end up with this crap...... I’ve had the pleasure of hunting all the CMS camps in Dande multiple times. Funny that I’ve shot my best buffalo in the East concession and also early season to boot. Zambezi valley hunts are tough , and that’s how I like them. Real hunting. I just returned a few weeks ago from another safari CMS arranged for me in northern Mozambique. Second time in Niassa , both superb. Buzz and Myles are second to none. I have referred many hunters to them, and everyone has only great things to say. For someone to come onto a public forum and claim an area is crap, misrepresented , heavily poached etc etc, because they didn’t get there buff. is just plain wrong. Others hunting in this concession got there buff this season.and many seasons past. Enough said... Pre paid trophy fees is another topic. The guys changed the non refundable part so I just can’t see what the big deal is. When hunting in some concessions in some countries, you need to pay for a licence to hunt that species. You don’t get it back if you don’t shoot it. This is non refundable. If you don’t like it then don’t hunt it. ..... simple. Don’t cry and winge on a public forum. We are all grown adults... caveat emptor guys. As to the blurred photos, give it up guys. CMS has made the call to protect the clients. That’s a wise company policy and I have no issue with that. Plenty of guys who have hunted with them have posted there own photos of the hunt. no issues with that either. Finally, merry Xmas CMS. Well done on a great year of hunting, congrats on expanding the business to the other areas in Zim. I look forward to hunting with you guys again soon. | |||
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Just curious. When nonresidents hunt Alaska they have to buy tags for animals they plan on hunting ahead of time. Joyce and I had to do the same in Wyoming and Colorado. If we did away with that version of "prepaid trophy fees" those F&G departments would not have monies needed for managing the resource. I've yet to see anyone complain. ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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We are talking about two entirely different things here. Governments do require you purchase a hunting license, and the outfitter who leases the concession has to pay for part of the quota regardless if he sells it or not. I think it is 40% in Tanzania. But, it is the first time I have ever heard of a Zimbabwe outfitter demanding an advance payment of a non refundable trophy fee. You pay it, whether you shoot anything or not. You pay it, even if you never see a trophy! I am sure someone will say this has not been proved, that someone has paid and was not able to even see one. But that is not the point. The point is it is A NON REFUNDABLE trophy fee. And the way I understand this, you pay it in advance. You shoot one or not, you still pay it. And this is what I find totally unacceptable! | |||
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Yes mate I lasted about 24 hours on the other site for expressing my opinions ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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The transparency of AR forum is invaluable. One can sift through all reports and see for themselves exactly what’s happened. The good the bad and the ugly. I only pray that Saeed has implemented some sort of back up plan when he’s gone. The WORLD needs a place for true hunters to gather. | |||
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