Is there a site, list, organization where clients who have under paid or not paid their PH/outfitter
names can be placed.
Seems like a service that is needed. Similar to the systems used on EBAY, etc. to evaluate buyers and sellers.
We just had 2 clients, after signing a contract, decide that the PH was making too much money for the hunt. They decided to under pay the PH by 20%.

how can they do that? Did you not have a binding contract? They arrive, they have to pay you before the hunt is over don't they?

confused...

Rich

Just hold their trophies until the final balance is paid in full.

You can post their names, along with the full details of the story, and send them a link.

That should wake them up.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
Just hold their trophies until the final balance is paid in full.

Teach them a lesson: Send an invoice for 120% of the original contracted PH fee!

But do what Saeed suggested too!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
how can they do that? Did you not have a binding contract? They arrive, they have to pay you before the hunt is over don't they?

confused...

Rich

Rich,

There are many tricks criminals can pull on a PH in another country.

They do pay for the booked hunt, and certain animals.

During the safari the ask if they can shoot additional animals, telling the PH that they will send the money once they are back home.

The PH, taking into account that this has happened to him before, and he did get his money without any hassles, agrees.

They shoot whatever they wish, go home, and forget about paying the money they they promised.

That sets a nasty feeling in the mind of the PH, who might refuse to let a future client shoot anything he has not got the money for at the time.

These are teh sort of idiots we should weed out.

They do nothing but paint us all as bad hunters.

A good example of why it's so important to have a comprehensive contract that binds them to full payment of daily rates before arrival and full payment of all other fees before departure from camp. (This is actually one of the subjects I discuss in my book)

Andrew's idea of a a bit of BST is tempting in this instance though.

BST = Bastard tax BTW.

Joking aside, there things seem to happen more often these days but fortunately the names of most of the flaky ones tends to get passed round in the industry fairly quickly.

FWIW, we always have some kind of facility in camp that people can use to make additional electronic money transfers if they need to pay any additional costs of any kind.

99.9999% of clients are 110% trustworthy but unfortunately the very occasional flaky one stuffs it up for the rest and even witholding the trophies isn't a guarantee of payment because the flaky ones sometimes aren't bothered whether they get their trophies or not.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
A good example of why it's so important to have a comprehensive contract that binds them to full payment of daily rates before arrival and full payment of all other fees before departure from camp. (This is actually one of the subjects I discuss in my book)

Andrew's idea of a a bit of BST is tempting in this instance though.

BST = Bastard tax BTW.

Joking aside, there things seem to happen more often these days but fortunately the names of most of the flaky ones tends to get passed round in the industry fairly quickly.

Steve,

I think a contract is not going to solve this sort of problem.

In any sort of business dealing, there HAS to be some trust. And and honestly doubt that a PH who has been in the business for sometime is going to refuse a client his wish fo shooting additional animals, with the understanding that he would pay for them later.

I have had this same thing happen to me. And the PH I hunted with made a mistake in his total at the end of the hunt, forgetting to charge me for some of the animals we shot.

He sent me an email afterwards of his mistake.

I could have told him to take a hike, as I paid everything he had asked for at the end of the hunt.

Of course, that did not happen, and his money was sent immediately.

The funny part was that it was my first hunt with this particular gentleman.

A couple of years later we booked another hunt with him. And I asked him how much I should send for a deposit.

His answers was "send anything you wish, or you can just pay after the hunt".

That is hwo it should be. Trust goes both ways.

Saeed,

I don't disagree with you but I'm sure you'll appreciate that you are hardly the average client...... in fact, you're about as far removed from the average that I'll probably see in my lifetime. I'd trust you with my life but unfortunately, not everyone is as honourable and as trustworthy as you are.

The way to deal with it is to have a contract that requires for a percentage to confirm the booking, the remainder of the daily rates to be paid before a certain date (obviously before the hunt begins) and all the outstanding costs such as trophy fees to be paid in cash or electronic money payment before departure from camp. - We don't even accept travellers cheques any more because of something that was reported on AR a while ago.

The other reason for full payment before departure is if you do let the guy pay later, there's always the possibility of him croaking on the flight home or getting home and finding his wife has moved out and taken all his money with her. These things don't happen often but they do happen occasionally. - I once had a client that got home to find even his furniture, art collection & clothes had gone along with his wife and ALL his money..... she literally cleared him out of everything except the wallpaper on the walls and a telephone.

I've never had someone refuse to pay trophy fees etc but have had clients who have needed extra money either because they ended up shooting more than they expected or because they've bought things they just couldn't resist...... in those cases, we let them use the RB Gan or sat phone to make an electronic transfer into our account during the hunt.

Also, don't for a moment think that these kind of practices are restricted to ordinary working guys..... there are several very wealthy people out there who are willing to cheat an operator for no better reason than they think they can get away with it.

If someone refused to pay the trophy fees that means they're going to screw you over and the way to deal with that is explain the charter flight (or car ) doesn't come in until full payment is made...... and an additional daily rate is chargable for every additional day in camp.

I've been trying to work out a way to avoid being shafted by some clients but it seems they always have some new trick.
My problem is that margins are so tight, it only takes one guy to be a bad payer in that one year, that the effect really hurts. I keep a blacklist but these guys just move from one agent or operator to another.
As one poster said....some guys are wealthy enough, but they see this another form of blood sport and just don't pay for extra trophy fees for 'fun'

It is a great feeling, for the PH to tell you are good to him for any extra animals you see. We drove around the last evening in camp and saw a big-big-big Eland about seventy yards out. I must have looked at him over the sights for twenty minutes. My PH told me to go ahead and shoot if I wanted to. He said they could give me a couple of months to pay. It was tempting. But something could have come up here and I would not have been able to pay on a short schedule. I don't like making excuses, and I don't like owing people.

It is a very good feeling to know that there is that trust established though.

It would be sad to have people in camp for a couple weeks, and then have them screw you like this.

I would post the hunt and details. What are they going to say?

Rich
DRSS

If an American client shoots but does not pay is he not violating the Lacey act? Is the animal not hunted by him in some illegal way or other?

You still have a problem with clients from other countries I guess. I would have them sign an additional sheet for the extra animals not in the original contract. Then the defaulting client would never be able to hunt in that country again.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
If an American client shoots but does not pay is he not violating the Lacey act? Is the animal not hunted by him in some illegal way or other?

You still have a problem with clients from other countries I guess. I would have them sign an additional sheet for the extra animals not in the original contract. Then the defaulting client would never be able to hunt in that country again.

IF (note the big IF) they're American, they'll only be in breach of the LA if the witheld payment means a breach of the game laws in whatever country the hunt took place in. For example, if the game laws state all trophy fees must be paid before the hunter leaves the country...... but if the witheld payment was for daily rates (for example) then no game laws have been broken and no part of the LA breached.

Signing an additional sheet and asking for payment when they get home is also a non starter because if they're going to tuck you up, they're going to do it from either country and in fact, it's easier for them to do it from home.

The only way to be 110% sure is to get payment before they leave in the manner I mentioned.

There are very few flaky hunters out there but those few can be very determined. I've even known an occasional one to not only tuck up the safari company but also the taxidermist!

I should say we've never been conned like this but we have had several attempts. Fortunately good business practice etc has meant they never got away with it......... so let's hope our good luck continues!

There's a fair number of real horror stories that have happened to some guys out there though.

I would like to thank everyone for their comments.
A contract was signed and agreed to by both parties. The hunters knew before they left the US what the fees would be. The hunt was successful and when the final payment was requested the client refused to pay the agreed to package rate.
The hunt was all inclusive, so there were no other charges or fees. It was a flat priced $4700, 6 animal 10 day plains game hunt + tips...... They did tip appropriately.
They have rationalized their position by saying that they should only get to pay the off season
hunt rate, that the outfitter didn't have anyone else signed up for that time slot in September, that the outfitter didn't protest enough when they refused to pay, his overhead isn't that much, and on and on and on. There is no excuse or rational for such behavior. A contract has been violated.
The shame of all this is that one of the clients was a close personal friend with who I had some trust. I explained to him that he and his friend's failure to honor a contract was exceptionally unusual considering that the outfitter had meet and exceeded all expectations for the safari.
I know this is a touchy subject, but if some members of this forum and the moderator would help me work out an evaluation format for clients and outfitters I would appreciate the assistance.
On my first safari to South Africa I was burned badly by the PH/outfitter. He taught me some very expensive lessons. When I took the PH course that outfitters name was brought up on several occasions as an example of unethical standards.
I could go on but I hope I have made my point that some criteria of evaluation, similar to Ebay or Gunbroker, of clients and outfitters business dealings be considered.
Their are some outfitters and clients who just refuse to recognize their ethical responsibilities and many who do. It would be appropriate to reward both accordingly.

I guess if the outfitter has a good track record, he can ask for all the money before the trip begins.This might be the only way of assuring payment.This is easily said than done.I would say that you need to be on top of every transaction and not let them accumulate.You should have a good sense of who is going to stiff you too.There are good apples and rotten apples.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bwana1:
On another note. I gave my outfitter a check for full payment of balance due, trophy fees, tips, etc. That was 8 weeks ago. The check has not cleared my account. Wish he would collect his $$ so I can close out the account.

quote:

The way to deal with it is to have a contract that requires for a percentage to confirm the booking, the remainder of the daily rates to be paid before a certain date (obviously before the hunt begins) and all the outstanding costs such as trophy fees to be paid in cash or electronic money payment before departure from camp. - We don't even accept travellers cheques any more because of something that was reported on AR a while ago.

Yeah, and I for one haven't forgotten that particular no good son of a bitch who still has the balls to post on AR. Then there's the SCI guy from Az, and.........

Those kind of things simply never used to happen but unfortunately it's becoming increasingly common.... and a very few have almost turned it into an art form!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

There are many tricks criminals can pull on a PH in another country.

They do pay for the booked hunt, and certain animals.

During the safari the ask if they can shoot additional animals, telling the PH that they will send the money once they are back home.

The PH, taking into account that this has happened to him before, and he did get his money without any hassles, agrees.

They shoot whatever they wish, go home, and forget about paying the money they they promised.

That sets a nasty feeling in the mind of the PH, who might refuse to let a future client shoot anything he has not got the money for at the time.

These are teh sort of idiots we should weed out.

They do nothing but paint us all as bad hunters.

Exactly.

Just Ask Bill Phifer how it's done.

quote:

Originally posted by twoskeptics:
I would like to thank everyone for their comments.
A contract was signed and agreed to by both parties. The hunters knew before they left the US what the fees would be. The hunt was successful and when the final payment was requested the client refused to pay the agreed to package rate.
The hunt was all inclusive, so there were no other charges or fees. It was a flat priced $4700, 6 animal 10 day plains game hunt + tips...... They did tip appropriately.
They have rationalized their position by saying that they should only get to pay the off season
hunt rate, that the outfitter didn't have anyone else signed up for that time slot in September, that the outfitter didn't protest enough when they refused to pay, his overhead isn't that much, and on and on and on. There is no excuse or rational for such behavior. A contract has been violated.
The shame of all this is that one of the clients was a close personal friend with who I had some trust. I explained to him that he and his friend's failure to honor a contract was exceptionally unusual considering that the outfitter had meet and exceeded all expectations for the safari.
I know this is a touchy subject, but if some members of this forum and the moderator would help me work out an evaluation format for clients and outfitters I would appreciate the assistance.
On my first safari to South Africa I was burned badly by the PH/outfitter. He taught me some very expensive lessons. When I took the PH course that outfitters name was brought up on several occasions as an example of unethical standards.
I could go on but I hope I have made my point that some criteria of evaluation, similar to Ebay or Gunbroker, of clients and outfitters business dealings be considered.
Their are some outfitters and clients who just refuse to recognize their ethical responsibilities and many who do. It would be appropriate to reward both accordingly.

I think you should post all the details, including names and dates.

sounds like a good idea to me post it and send them the link so they can read it

twoskeptics,

Our policy is to get all the daily fees up front and a substantial trophy fee deposit. This seems to work well and clients enjoy not carrying lots of money to Africa.

Mark

This would also be another example of where an escrow account of some sort would work. If the hunter deposited a certain amount of money, then the outfitter would submit the amount owed to him. Whatever is leftover after the debt is paid in full, goes back to the hunter.

It would also introduce a thrid party, who should be able to settle any disputes between the PH/outfitter and hunter.

There has got to be some way to make something like this work.

I really don't understand the fixation with escrow accounts because it's firstly just an additional expense and secondly doesn't achieve anything.

The simple way to make it work is the way that's been discussed here and is used by the vast majority of the (experienced) industry.

It's also the normal way of doing business on most other holidays/vacations such as package tours, cruises and flights...... so why should a hunt be any different.

Steve,

I think you've answered your own question of why things don't always work.

You've even stated you stopped accepting TC because of a particular case here. However, are TCs still not a normal way of paying a safari debt?

I think an escrow account in this instance would have worked.

After the hunt, the outfitter would have submitted the debt owed along with the proper paperwork to determine the amount along with the signed contract. The total fee would have been assessed and money distributed accordingly both to the outfitter and any leftover back to the hunter.

Also, this keeps hunters from traveling abroad with large sums of cash or TCs. I just returned from RSA in August and I was certainly uneasy until my remaining money was back in my account.

Finally, you can't include 'normal' vacations in this senerio any longer. If someone goes on vacation, they are using credit cards or some sort of plastic to pay for their trip. Why do you think it is so hard to find TC in the USA now? You can find a TC gift card, which is the same as a credit card, but very darn few banks even carry TCs anymore. Trust me I had to go to, or call, about a dozen banks in my area before I found a bank that would sell them to me, or even carried them.

No mate. I think you misunderstand me. If the client doesn't agree to the payment out of the escrow account, it doesn't get paid.... therefore if you get a flaky client such as being discussed here, he can still do the same thing.... same with the T/Cs.... all he has to do is report them stolen and they lose all their value. To say nothing of suggesting the PH/outfitter had stolen them when he hadn't. That can cause him problems for years to come in all sorts of ways. Everything from credit ratings to firearms licencing could be affected.

If someone doesn't want to carry cash they can simply use an RB Gan to access the internet and make an electronic transfer and provide proof of payment and it can all be done from the comfort of camp.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I really don't understand the fixation with escrow accounts because it's firstly just an additional expense and secondly doesn't achieve anything.

The simple way to make it work is the way that's been discussed here and is used by the vast majority of the (experienced) industry.

It's also the normal way of doing business on most other holidays/vacations such as package tours, cruises and flights...... so why should a hunt be any different.

Disagree Steve. I paid a small deposit for a leopard hunt in Namibia. We all know what happened to the season there recently. I am still trying to get my deposit back. If that money was in escrow, I would have it.

The trouble with some safari outfitters is that they spend the deposits for next year's hunts on this year's commitments.

This is the first problem I have ever had booking directly, but if I don't get it resolved I will be using an agent again. BTW, this oeperator uses two different agents. I booked the hunt based on a guy I met on a hunt in Canada a few years ago.

The other issue I have often raised that doesn't get much attention is the issue of travel insurance. To me, a huge underestimated risk is giving someone 60k as a deposit months before the hunt, only to see them go BK. You are then an unsecured creditor. Travel insurance that protects against financial default of the booking agent and operator helps alleviate this.

Yea, I can understand not taking TCs after the Phifer theft.

As for the Phoenix SCI guy not paying his TFs in New Zealand, I heard he has been removed from his post.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

The way to deal with it is to have a contract that requires for a percentage to confirm the booking, the remainder of the daily rates to be paid before a certain date (obviously before the hunt begins) and all the outstanding costs such as trophy fees to be paid in cash or electronic money payment before departure from camp. - We don't even accept travellers cheques any more because of something that was reported on AR a while ago.

Yeah, and I for one haven't forgotten that particular no good son of a bitch who still has the balls to post on AR. Then there's the SCI guy from Az, and.........

And the victim of that SCAM was as honorable a gentleman as possibly could be.. Not only had he rolled over my 50% deposit to the following year, he gladly accepted my TC's at the end of the hunt just weeks ago. I'm certain with this episode still very fresh in his mind..

Steve,

But in the end, wouldn't a copy of the signed contract and copy of the signed PH ledger with animals taken/wounded be evidence of agreement?

As with the agreement of the payment, my insurance company and the county tax office doesn't send me anything that I need to agree to or sign before they take their money out of my escrow account. Sure I get a copy of the transaction and the day it took place, but I haven't ever agreed to them getting their money.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Disagree Steve. I paid a small deposit for a leopard hunt in Namibia. We all know what happened to the season there recently. I am still trying to get my deposit back. If that money was in escrow, I would have it.

Yep, another example of where an escrow account would be well worth it.

AAZW,

With regard to your leopard hunt.... didn't the safari contract have a cancellation policy for both parties? If not, it should have done.

I agree with you about safari insurance and I also think clients should have good medivac cover for most places but many don't bother. - Their choice though.

Graybird,

The contract etc obviously wasn't good enough in this instance. I can't really comment much more than I have already because all the answers are there.

FWIW, we wouldn't accept the escrow option. I'm sure some would but I see nothing wrong with the way we operate now and have never had any problems with it.

Like I said, this kind of thing never used to happen in the old days but in recent years, it's become increasingly common.

Steve:

Just for curiosity, how do you know that monies have actually been transferred? I've wired money to both SA and Namibia a couple of times and the receiving party couldn't get word from their bank for several days or more.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Like I said, this kind of thing never used to happen in the old days but in recent years, it's become increasingly common.

I'm afraid you're correct, unfortunately! You hear more of these stories on a more consistant basis.

When they make the payment we save the proof of payment page to our laptop. But I should say that if it's a significant amount, we usually know about it early in the safari and can get the payment made early on in the hunt.

We once had a guy turn up for a 21 day hunt and he'd left ALL his money & cards at home. We just let him use the RB Gan and he transferred a substantial amount inti our account on the second or third day and then we refunded the balance on the last day of his trip.

Wasn't a problem at all.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
AAZW,

With regard to your leopard hunt.... didn't the safari contract have a cancellation policy for both parties? If not, it should have done.

The guy acknowledges he owes me the money, he just claims things are really "tight" right now.

quote:

Originally posted by MopaneMike:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

The way to deal with it is to have a contract that requires for a percentage to confirm the booking, the remainder of the daily rates to be paid before a certain date (obviously before the hunt begins) and all the outstanding costs such as trophy fees to be paid in cash or electronic money payment before departure from camp. - We don't even accept travellers cheques any more because of something that was reported on AR a while ago.

Yeah, and I for one haven't forgotten that particular no good son of a bitch who still has the balls to post on AR. Then there's the SCI guy from Az, and.........

And the victim of that SCAM was as honorable a gentleman as possibly could be.. Not only had he rolled over my 50% deposit to the following year, he gladly accepted my TC's at the end of the hunt just weeks ago. I'm certain with this episode still very fresh in his mind..

Blows me away how someone could believe for a minute that Nixon would steal his clients checks and then submit them for payment made out to himself - what a way to go out of business in a hurry. Phifer has convinced no one he is nothing more than a crook. And he continues to post here like he is "one of us." Ha!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

Also, don't for a moment think that these kind of practices are restricted to ordinary working guys..... there are several very wealthy people out there who are willing to cheat an operator for no better reason than they think they can get away with it.

Speaking as an ordinary working guy who worked considerable overtime, did numerous freelance side jobs, and sold the bulk of a lifelong firearm collection to finance my African hunt, I must thank Shakari for grudgingly admitting that it isn't merely my lowly ilk that is capable of this type of chicanery.

I was pleasantly surprised by the level of trust extended by my booking agent and both of the outfitters that I dealt with on my hunt. Additional monies were agreed upon with no preamble or prior discussion, and were paid upon my return home. Speaking for myself, I trust people who trust me. When someone can't discern that they can trust me, well...I won't say that I can't trust a person like that, but it takes a bit of effort to do so.

I intended this hunt to be my one-and-only African safari. That will probably prove to be the case, but in case I do ever go back, I know with whom I will deal.

Sorry if I came across as a bit thin-skinned there...must be a working guy thing.

John

AAZW,

Don't really know what to say about the deposit..... times are tough for everyone but that's no excuse huh!

As to Nixon. Whoever is right or wrong there's no doubt that even the sniff of that kind of scandal will affect his business, his credit rating (if he has one) and possibly even his firearms status etc and all I can say is he's a braver man than I am if he's still taking T/Cs and/or extending credit..... to me it doesn't sound like the sensible thing to do but it's bugger all to do with me!

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

Also, don't for a moment think that these kind of practices are restricted to ordinary working guys..... there are several very wealthy people out there who are willing to cheat an operator for no better reason than they think they can get away with it.

Speaking as an ordinary working guy who worked considerable overtime, did numerous freelance side jobs, and sold the bulk of a lifelong firearm collection to finance my African hunt, I must thank Shakari for grudgingly admitting that it isn't merely my lowly ilk that is capable of this type of chicanery.

I was pleasantly surprised by the level of trust extended by my booking agent and both of the outfitters that I dealt with on my hunt. Additional monies were agreed upon with no preamble or prior discussion, and were paid upon my return home. Speaking for myself, I trust people who trust me. When someone can't discern that they can trust me, well...I won't say that I can't trust a person like that, but it takes a bit of effort to do so.

I intended this hunt to be my one-and-only African safari. That will probably prove to be the case, but in case I do ever go back, I know with whom I will deal.

Sorry if I came across as a bit thin-skinned there...must be a working guy thing.

John

My favorite way to interview a guy is to take him/her to lunch and watch how they treat the waiter/waitress. Calling them "Sir" or "Ma'am" goes over big time with me. Acting like the sun shines out of their asshole does not.

JWM,

From one working class man to another, I apologise if I sounded like a snob...... that certainly wasn't my intention.

What I meant was just because some people are wealthy doesn't necessarily mean they won't try to pull a fast one....

It's not about class, wealth, education, colour, rank, title or fortune....... it's about the individual and that incidentally is how I personally judge people.