Great hunt and a great report. Mozambique is on my to do list one of these days.

Don

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
So the male was obviously a pride holder? How did you know after 2 nights of photos that there were not "lighties" tucked away somewhere because they were too young or the bait was too far away? With the recent onus that has been placed on lion hunters, does 2 nights of trailcam photos that establish that you have a male lion with a pride of females at a bait adequately exclude the risk of cubs? Where is Lane on this?


BTW, that's an awesome lion and I would have blown a hole in it as well....

Really Brad!!! We all know you like to be a shit-disturber, and actually if you read correctly - you will see we have 3 days/nights of pics, plus seeing them too!!!

You know, I know exactly what I'm doing!!! But never the less - I expected this from you my shit disturbing BUDDY!!!!!!!

Next time I'll get 5 days/nights of cam pics - send them to you first, and ask approval.

See ya sugar!!

To everyone else, other than BRAD - thanks guys very much!!

Brad -

Super hunt Aaron, congrats.

quote:

You know, I know exactly what I'm doing!!! But never the less - I expected this from you my shit disturbing BUDDY!!!!!!!

Actually, if everything is like you say (and I have no reason to doubt it), the only thing you "know" is that you were shooting an excellent specimen of a lion that held a pride of females. You have no idea if those females had cubs tucked away somewhere. You know better than anyone (probably) on this forum that there would be some space of time between when a cub is born and when it would be physically able, and even more time before its mother would let it follow her to a feed site much less a bait. my argument is not that you did anything wrong, rather that what you did Is completely inconsistent with what we have been taught by the LCTF, which is to erre on the side of caution, no?

Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Doug

Oh yeah, congratulations on an awesome safari!!

quote:

So by the time we arrived, our PH's had two days/nights worth of trail cam pics (alot of them) thus it allowed us ample opportunity to look him over, as well as the girls he was obviously with. In fact, the morning we arrived they actually saw the Lion as they approached the bait site. So by now, Alex/Jay were both confident that he was a shooter - but wanted me to have a look as well. That night we gathered round, and look at easily over 100 trail cam pics of the lions. Not only did he look big/old, but no "lighties" were ever seen in the pics, etc. All looked Good

quote:

actually if you read correctly - you will see we have 3 days/nights of pics, plus seeing them too!!!

Maybe the cubs fed on the 3rd night?

Maybe you know this already...a message from

Sr. Import Agent
Fauna & Flora Customhouse Brokerage Co., Inc.
152-31 135th Avenue
Jamaica, New York 11434


"There is currently an embargo of the import of Hippo's from Mozambique by CITES. The embargo is due to Mozambique not supplying required information on the populations of the Hippo to CITES. No Hippo's from Mozambique can be imported at this time."

I must admit that the shooting of a pride male surprised me too, but I don't know enough about it to have brought the subject up. Now that a doubt has been voiced can someone please explain it all for my benefit.

Morning all,
I am still new to this forum and looking to making some more contributions to relevant topics when I can,
Fairgame will also be able to contribute to this topic from his years of lion hunting in Zambia,
I do know the area hunted as well as the PH Alex and his dad Sandy, Sandy is one of those characters that will only shoot animals passed their prime and animals he believes have done their duties in helping to re populate the areas,
The Sabi area well known for its nomadic Males, these have been pushed out of prides by new younger males and now travel and hunt alone, with another nomad or join up with a pride of females that are also a nomadic pride searching for a territory to fit in, this relationship is not a breeding one but a symbiotic one where the lone male has help hunting and actually becomes one of the girls, in many of these instances you will not find cubs with the pride,
If this pride had cubs you would defiantly have seen them over a 2 to 3 day period,
Hunting of pride males or trophy Buffalo out of a herd should be limited as far as possible but there are situations that you are put in as an Outfitter or PH that you make the call to do so, some areas have high lion populations with coalitions of young males been kept out of the prides by older males 8/10 years of age,
As well as breeding herds of Buffalo with a high % of breeding bulls in the herd, I guided a good friend of mine to a 47” buffalo which was over 12 years old out of a breeding herd, I did not see a problem with this as there were younger bulls of 44” that would carry on the breeding.
Even though this lion was shot after 2 or 3 days I am sure that Alex knew the population dynamics in his area well enough to know the males history,

Hope this helps, if not sorry,
But from my side bloody nice lion and great Buffalo, have they aged the Lion? Looks well over 7/8 years old?
Do you have any photos of his teeth close up to see the wear?

Congratulations on a superb lion and buffalo Aaron and BTW, I received the package! thanks! jorge

quote:

where the lone male has help hunting and actually becomes one of the girls

one of the girls, huh?

quote:

in many of these instances you will not find cubs with the pride,

what about in the "not so many instances"? I thought this was why we are required to err on the side of caution, for the sake of the lion of course....

Where is the Defender of all thing lion, Lane, by the way?

quote:

Originally posted by R.Jolly:
I must admit that the shooting of a pride male surprised me too, but I don't know enough about it to have brought the subject up. Now that a doubt has been voiced can someone please explain it all for my benefit.

RJ - Have a look at the "Huntable Lion Definition". Pride males are fine, as long as he's without dependent cubs. Nothing changes frankly, and the only lion effected is the one that is shot.

After 3 days and hundreds of pics, one can assume with 99% certainty that no little ones were around. Obviously there's no certainty in hunting lions, including the fact that I strongly believe from everything I saw that this lion is 6 plus yrs old - but I'm not 100% certain of that. Only science can determine that for sure.

Based on what I saw, and what I know - I felt confident I was shooting a "good" lion. That simple.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Only science can determine that for sure.

Aaron, is the lion being aged?

quote:

After 3 days and hundreds of pics, one can assume with 99% certainty that no little ones were around. Obviously there's no certainty in hunting lions, including the fact that I strongly believe from everything I saw that this lion is 6 plus yrs old - but I'm not 100% certain of that. Only science can determine that for sure.

Hundreds of pics where? At the bait? The 1 pic you posted shows about a 6'-7' wide area at the bait? Big surprise, there wasn's a litter of newborn cubs swinging off the bait, so they don't exist? I believe that for 99% certainty you know that no babies were eating the bait, but that is all you have 99% certainty of. Everything else is 100% speculation, weighed heavily by your desire to blow a hole in who potentially was "Daddy". This is completely inconsistant with what you and others have berrated everyone on this forum for, under the guise of "education". Now, if your outfitters aleady knew this lion, had observed the pride over time in their natural environment, had performed pregnancy tests on all the females (sarcasm), knew that they didn't have cubs and had him "tied down" (figuratively) for you to come whack him, that is a different deal, but that is not how this scenario was described by you. You can discount this all you want, but you know for a fact that you did not know the true dynamics of this pride before you shot this lion.

quote:

I do not want to say that this IS the only correct course of action to take but this is what we should try to do IMO:
- determine if the pride has any dependant young or obviously pregnant/lactating females
- determine if it is a known male to us (one that we have observed several times in the past and can therefore determine the pride structure and history).
- last but not least, determine of he is 6+

The above was posted by Bwanamich on the "pride male shot" post in the lion forum. Questions;
1) is 2 nights of bait cam pics showing a pride of lions at the bait with no cubs enough to determine that there are no cubs?
2) Would TGTS allow the lion to be shot if only the above was known?
3) Is there any scenario that you wouldn't be able to tell 100% if a female was lactating or pregnant (at any stage), off of a bait cam pic?

It is beyond me why those who have labled themselves the "experts" have been unwilling to come on here and have a constructive conversation about facts that are staring all of us in the face.

I am no expert Brad but I have never taken a Lion from a pride. Never had to and to be honest have always tried to avoid them. They scoff all your bait for starters.

I know some of the lone males I have taken have been younger nomads looking for a pride to infiltrate. My view was always if the Lion is mature and solitary then he is fairgame. I advocate the five year rule but will abide by the country rule.

Basically what I am saying is that pride male should be left to carry on breeding and defend the females for as long as he is able. If they are ousted then so be it and then they are a worthy trophy.

Where I work there has always been many more nomads than prides and in my humble opinion I suspect this concentration is very disruptive to pride dynamics or rather continued social structure.

Like I say I am no expert and my methods and personal ethics are just that. Mine.

that sounds consistant with everything the LCTF has stated to date on this subject.

Then again Aaron's Lion was monitored and the PH made the call. In Mozambique Lions are protected by the Niassa system?

I would agree, if this lion was being monitored and they had established the pride structure through extended observation, that is a horse of a different color so to speak. That was not the impression I garnered from Aaron's report.

Nice report and great hunt! Thanks for sharing...

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
I would agree, if this lion was being monitored and they had established the pride structure through extended observation, that is a horse of a different color so to speak. That was not the impression I garnered from Aaron's report.

Then again Brad I would not be surprised the odd lone male I have taken has not been a pride male on walkabout?

Difficult to tell your client that we should monitor him for a few days especially on the last day.

Anyway fuck it currently no rules apply in Zambia and not sure if anyone is bothered?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Only science can determine that for sure.

Aaron, is the lion being aged?

Mike, I'll probably do so once I get the skull back into the states. Will send the appropriate tooth to both Lane, and Dr. White.

Like I say, I'm confident of his age - but I would like to know for sure.

Come on guys this pride question thing is starting to sound like a bit of a witch hunt and it's in danger of spoiling a good hunt report.
We all know that Aaron is an experienced lion hunter and if he has made a mistake in this particular instance then I' m sure that it was done with the best of intentions.
Aaron; I think that this goes to show that, as some of us have experienced before, the support of fellow hunters can not always be guaranteed.

what a lion! A dream!!!

quote:

Originally posted by R.Jolly:
Come on guys this pride question thing is starting to sound like a bit of a witch hunt and it's in danger of spoiling a good hunt report.
We all know that Aaron is an experienced lion hunter and if he has made a mistake in this particular instance then I' m sure that it was done with the best of intentions.
Aaron; I think that this goes to show that, as some of us have experienced before, the support of fellow hunters can not always be guaranteed.

Not sure about that quote? I was debating with another and have already stated my favourable opinion of the hunt.

I think you will find Aaron's participation on other hunt reports factual and has nothing to do with hunting witches.

Brad - My opinion, and position, has ALWAYS been the same.

Number one consideration when shooting a lion - his guestimated age. Period, end of story!

Secondly, and I have said it plenty of times (here on AR too). If you can with reasonable certainty, determine that a male does not have dependent cubs, regardless of pride status, or lack there of - he's good to go. I've never contradicted that position, ever!!!

I've always held my own criteria on lions, with the help of all those I know - who are in the "know", and my own opinions too. Based on lots of personal experience (unlike you). For example, Dr. White and I are both in agreement of the lack of consistency of a lion's nose color, being a good indication of age. While some think it is, and lots of folks have just assumed it is - based on what they've heard. I'm here to tell ya, it isn't. But of course, some will disagree - even some I listen to and respect. And to some degree, I disagree with subtle positions/opinions taken by some of the scientists too. But overall, we generally agree - that shooting mature/older cats is the most important concern.

We looked at pics for 3 days/nights, with the lions often being at the bait for hours at a time. Pics in daylight, and dark. How many pics did we have?? I don't know - well over 100 I'm sure. Plus, the lions were actually seen by both of the PH's/trackers too! The pic you see posted - was zoomed in on by me, just trying to show the lion as best as possible I suppose. But was the actual field of view on all the pics, much greater - yep!!!

So, based on the info we had - everyone agreed! Like Andrew says, and you already know - even a lone male at your bait for 3 days, "could" be a daddy of little ones - that are off elsewhere with momma. One can never be 100% certain of any of this.

Frankly Brad, you know full well my position in regards to my issues in the past with some of the lions shot. YOUNG/IMMATURE, the number one concern, end of story. I've not questioned the other issues of the hunt/kill, of mature lions, as I wasn't there to know what they saw/didn't see (cubs/prides, etc).

But hey man, if you wanna do so - carry on. Unlike some here - you're gonna have to try a little harder to "hurt my feelings", but you know that already.

quote:

Originally posted by R.Jolly:
Come on guys this pride question thing is starting to sound like a bit of a witch hunt and it's in danger of spoiling a good hunt report.
We all know that Aaron is an experienced lion hunter and if he has made a mistake in this particular instance then I' m sure that it was done with the best of intentions.
Aaron; I think that this goes to show that, as some of us have experienced before, the support of fellow hunters can not always be guaranteed.

RJ - Its no worries! Frankly, you are correct - everyone is capable of making a mistake (me included). In this case, I don't believe I did - that's my position based on my opinion, knowledge and experience (including on this hunt). If others wish to disagree, they are obviously free to do so.

Man look, you are a stand up guy - everyone here knows that. Trust me on this - if it were only support I sought from my hunting peers, I wouldn't bother with AR. I don't need anyone's support to validate my decision, and I certainly don't let their lack of support - detract from my enjoyment of sharing my experience with others here on AR either. But, I do appreciate yours!! Thank you!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Only science can determine that for sure.

Aaron, is the lion being aged?

Mike, I'll probably do so once I get the skull back into the states. Will send the appropriate tooth to both Lane, and Dr. White.

Like I say, I'm confident of his age - but I would like to know for sure.

The one sure way to silence the naysayers!

Perhaps you have missed my point. I am not arguing that you shot the wrong lion. I think you shot a terrific lion. My issue is that the narrative you offered is completely inconsistant with the rules of engagement that have been espoused by your organization (as far as pride status). I feel this is primarily because the rules of engagement you have set forth are unreasonable (as this example shows). Hunting a lion (or any other wild animal for that matter) is completely different on site than talking about it on a forum from your office chair. As far as "hurting your feelings", I really don't care, rather I would like to have a logical conversation where people are not "pulling punches" which obscures the underlying point.

quote:

The one sure way to silence the naysayers!

has someone been arguing that this lion was too young?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Only science can determine that for sure.

Aaron, is the lion being aged?

Mike, I'll probably do so once I get the skull back into the states. Will send the appropriate tooth to both Lane, and Dr. White.

Like I say, I'm confident of his age - but I would like to know for sure.

The one sure way to silence the naysayers!

Mike - I'll do so, once I get him back. But I don't think anyone is questioning the age of the lion??

Brad can read, and everyone knows my position on hunting lions - its always been the same. He's simply doing what he does best -

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Originally posted by R.Jolly:

RJ--Man look, you are a stand up guy - everyone here knows that.

C'mon folks, lets not over generalize or make absurd comments that could be the subject of ridicule.

quote:

Brad can read, and everyone knows my position on hunting lions - its always been the same. He's simply doing what he does best -

Believe it or not Aaron, that's not what I do best.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Brad can read, and everyone knows my position on hunting lions - its always been the same. He's simply doing what he does best -

Believe it or not Aaron, that's not what I do best.

Brad - I am IGNORING YOU!!!

But that one was funny!!!

Congrats on one heck of a safari.
Huge lion and 2 nice buffs, sweet

Very nice Aaron. Super Safari. Congrats!!!
Your right, That young bull has great drops and is a toad in body size. Up and comer in any bodies book.

Congratulations mister on an outstanding big lion, only problem i see is where will you place that full mounted monster