quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
How to win friends and influence people.

Larry,

I'd rather see true lion hunting continue & wild lion populations thrive than disguise my true feelings in case it might offend some bugger.

If that pisses some people off then so be it.

Steve:

I understand. However, beating up on someone here is not going to help the cause. Do you really think the OP is going to be cooperative in helping the cause after the beating he took here?

I don't know the situation on this hunt. What he described was most certainly not a normal lion hunt nor did he represent it that way. Was it a wild lion? Maybe, maybe not.

I think it is better to educate people without beating up on them.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Steve:

I understand. However, beating up on someone here is not going to help the cause. Do you really think the OP is going to be cooperative in helping the cause after the beating he took here?

I don't know the situation on this hunt. What he described was most certainly not a normal lion hunt nor did he represent it that way. Was it a wild lion? Maybe, maybe not.

I think it is better to educate people without beating up on them.

Larry

I'm not beating up on him mate...... but I am being truthful and I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that was a captive bred and newly released lion. Frankly, (IMO) the whole thing stinks to high heaven of it and if you read the article in the link I posted, you'll also see it's pretty much a classic example of the usual BS that goes on with these things.

As for representing it as a wild lion hunt..... he did exactly that when he posted: "In brief, Lion was a wild lion taken from game reserve due to bad attitude i.e. fighting other lions, charging vehicles, and killing to many animal"

Note the 7th, 8th & 9th words that are 'wild lion hunt'

I do however appreciate that the misrepresentation might not have been deliberate.

Have the decency to stop promoting your agenda in this guy's thread. We're all happy for you to start your own hunting thread - I've enjoyed reading plenty of your posts over the years, but this is ridiculous.

OP: Cool story - hope you had fun. Thanks for sharing.

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
Have the decency to stop promoting your agenda in this guy's thread. We're all happy for you to start your own hunting thread - I've enjoyed reading plenty of your posts over the years, but this is ridiculous.

OP: Cool story - hope you had fun. Thanks for sharing.

Since when were you elected a moderator?

If you don't like my opinions, don't read 'em but don't try to tell me what I can and cannot post because it won't work.

Like I said, I care far more about the future of lions and real lion hunting than I care about individual opinions.

If it isn't made clear that this was a tuck up of a 'hunt', others might book the same thing, possibly with the same agent and possibly make the same mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
Have the decency to stop promoting your agenda in this guy's thread. We're all happy for you to start your own hunting thread - I've enjoyed reading plenty of your posts over the years, but this is ridiculous.

OP: Cool story - hope you had fun. Thanks for sharing.

Since when were you elected a moderator?

If you don't like my opinions, don't read 'em but don't try to tell me what I can and cannot post because it won't work.

Like I said, I care far more about the future of lions and real lion hunting than I care about individual opinions.

If it isn't made clear that this was a tuck up of a 'hunt', others might book the same thing, possibly with the same agent and possibly make the same mistake.

Speaking of opinions

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
Have the decency to stop promoting your agenda in this guy's thread. We're all happy for you to start your own hunting thread - I've enjoyed reading plenty of your posts over the years, but this is ridiculous.

OP: Cool story - hope you had fun. Thanks for sharing.

Since when were you elected a moderator?

If you don't like my opinions, don't read 'em but don't try to tell me what I can and cannot post because it won't work.

Like I said, I care far more about the future of lions and real lion hunting than I care about individual opinions.

If it isn't made clear that this was a tuck up of a 'hunt', others might book the same thing, possibly with the same agent and possibly make the same mistake.

Steve:

I'm no moderator, but I try to be a relatively reasonable human being. Sometimes I fail, if you believe my Minister of War and Finance ....

Also, opinion is ultimately what shapes policy - you might want to rethink not caring about opinions, individual or otherwise. If you can't sway popular opinion on this site with the relatively homogenous group of people found here, you will certainly fail on a much larger, more diverse stage. If you can't see why your posts rub otherwise sympathetic people the wrong way or negatively affect your position, consider getting back in your cage and letting some others do the talking. Your agenda and most reasonable people will thank you.

I don't have an agenda at all nor am I trying to 'shape a policy'

I do however have a private opinion that I express when I so choose as per my right to free speech and as I'm not asking anyone else to agree with me or otherwise so I fail to see the point of your argument.

From the other thread that Frostbit was so kind to start in an attempt to smear me:

Frostbit

Firstly: I didn't piss on the man at all but I did point out he'd been sold a pup if he thought he'd had a wild lion hunt and that is entirely correct.

I later pointed that the 'hunt' was either misrepresented to him or he was misrepresenting it to others and in either case, it could lead to others booking similar 'hunts' if that fact was not pointed out and those things are also entirely correct and bearing in mind he's an agent, VERY important.

Where have I EVER claimed to be an authority on anything? I do often express opinions and sometimes give info but I never have and never will, claim to be an authority on anything.

I also posted a link to an article on our own website on how to spot the differences between a canned lion and a proper hunt...... I've posted that link several times before so it's probably been viewed before by most here who are interested.

I also posted "I have always said and always will say that canned lion shooting gives no benefit whatsoever to the wild lion populations because wild lion populations are on quota and therefore only a set number can be shot. Therefore the only benefit of captive bred lions is to the unethical and unscrupulous bastards that sell or shoot them and that this despicable practice will be one of the major contributory facors to the eventual banning of all lion hunting and eventually all lions outside of zoos" and I stand by that opinion. hell, they even proudly advertise what they do by posting pics and vids all over the net and couldn't make things easier for the antis if they tried.

This debate has raged for years and I've posted my own views on every occasion so why start a new thread to simply recover old ground?

I've never claimed to be a great PH but I do have a fair bit of experience in a number of different African countries and have hunted a reasonable number of DG and other animals over the years...... As for posting pics, if you do a search of my previous posts, you'll find my policy on that..... I stopped doing it many years ago because of image theft and you'll find examples of many of my old pics floating about the net, including a few lions.

Another search on my old posts will show you that I've previously said to others that I don't need to and will not justify myself to you or anyone else. - I don't give a flying fuck what you or anyone else thinks about me. I am what I am. Nothing more and nothing less.

You are also shooting from the lip with your policy of Ad Hominem which if you don't know translates to 'attack the man when you can't win the argument'.

Incidentally, I've also said that a captive bred lion is often no less dangerous than a wild one (unless of course still drugged) and that these practices are not limited to SA alone and that they happen in several other African countries as well.

What's important here is that lions and lion hunting continue for the next generation not that hunters get a lion in their trophy room at any cost or that their sensibilities are offended by my perhaps slightly hard nosed comments.

The fact is that canned lion shooting is wrong will one day come back to bite us in the arse and that I'm dead right to criticise it.

Steve you are entitled to criticize a practice that you do not approve of but it is poor form to dump all over a hunt report posted by a fellow hunter. Your view is not necessarily the only one out there, nor necessarily the correct one. The manner in which your criticism is directed will only lead to less reports being posted not less lions being shot.



As for an ad hominem attack, the issue is less about the "canned lion" debate and more about an individual (you) riding rough shod over another person's post.


Look at this thread. It is supposed to be a hunt report. The hunter did not engage in an illegal hunt. Do we start applying our individual prejudices to each and every type of hunting we personally disagree with on someone else's hunt report?
If that happens Saeed might as well pull the entire hunt reports section and the anti hunters will have won another victory.
JCHB

quote:

Originally posted by JCHB:
Steve you are entitled to criticize a practice that you do not approve of but it is poor form to dump all over a hunt report posted by a fellow hunter. Your view is not necessarily the only one out there, nor necessarily the correct one. The manner in which your criticism is directed will only lead to less reports being posted not less lions being shot.



As for an ad hominem attack, the issue is less about the "canned lion" debate and more about an individual (you) riding rough shod over another person's post.


Look at this thread. It is supposed to be a hunt report. The hunter did not engage in an illegal hunt. Do we start applying our individual prejudices to each and every type of hunting we personally disagree with on someone else's hunt report?
If that happens Saeed might as well pull the entire hunt reports section and the anti hunters will have won another victory.
JCHB

You might like to re-read my comments. I didn't crap on the hunter at all....... but I did point out he'd been sold a pup and I did crap on the practices of canned lions and the way this particular case was misrepresented as a wild lion.

I see nothing whatsoever wrong with that!

As I keep saying, if one chooses to ignore the situation and just cheer him on then there's the real risk that others might be taken in and book a similar hunt package and also get taken in.

Well, I am the Moderator on this forum, and I only like to get involved when I see something that requires my involvement.

I certainly see none of that here.

A member posted a report about a lion hunt, Steve pointed out that there is no way in hell can anyone have hunted 250 lions in our modern times.

And that a lion taken from a game reserve and put out so someone can shoot it is never going to be a lion hunt.

So, where is the argument?

So Steve

Just a quick question from my side, I have no dog in this race.

I do not agree personally with your sentiments on High Fence Lions, I see it the same as hunting or shooting a Kudu on a High fence farm, just the price is a bit higher.
And for this reason I have personally hunted dozens of Kudu on High fence farms and have also hunted many Lions as well, I have not sold any to clients but have enjoyed an afternoon of Lion Hunting on many occasions myself on very well-known and respected High Fence Lion Farms.

Great Hunts I can promise you that,

My question is do you believe that there are any Wild Lions Hunted in South Africa?

Second question is, do you believe that there are any Cattle Killers hunted in South Africa or is that just a sales pitch?

JK

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
So Steve

Just a quick question from my side, I have no dog in this race.

I do not agree personally with your sentiments on High Fence Lions, I see it the same as hunting or shooting a Kudu on a High fence farm, just the price is a bit higher.
And for this reason I have personally hunted dozens of Kudu on High fence farms and have also hunted many Lions as well, I have not sold any to clients but have enjoyed an afternoon of Lion Hunting on many occasions myself on very well-known and respected High Fence Lion Farms.

Great Hunts I can promise you that,

My question is do you believe that there are any Wild Lions Hunted in South Africa?

Second question is, do you believe that there are any Cattle Killers hunted in South Africa or is that just a sales pitch?

JK

The difference I see between your kudu and my lion (for want of a better expression) is your kudu has spent considerable time on the property and knows it intimately. He knows the terrain, the boundaries, the escape routes, the watering points etc and has been more or less self sustaining for most, if not all of his life.

My lion however has spent it's life in a large pen, has never been self sustaining, has recently been drugged and transported to a new area and has no idea of the terrain, the boundaries, the escape routes or the watering points etc.

Do I believe there are any wild lions in SA? - Yes and no......... there are a few that have been self sustaining etc in areas such as yours but (IMO) they are pretty much always far more habituated to people and vehicles than the wild lions in somewhere like the SGR in Tz and therefore their behaviour patterns are different...... That doesn't make them any less dangerous and indeed, the opposite might be well argued but it does make them behave differently.

Cattle killers in SA? - Sure but very few indeed and (again, IMO) most that are presented in SA as such as misrepresented.

I really don't mean to kak on this guy's hunt but I do mean to kak on the misrepresentation of such hunts and as I've said before, I'm utterly convinced that if these things continue, they will be one of the major contributory factors in a ban on lion hunting that I'm sure will happen within a decade or two at the VERY most.......... and although I'm just an old fart that's retired from the industry, I'd like to hope that all true African hunting but especially lion hunting will continue for the next generation to enjoy.

Think of the pleasures and privileges of the bush you've enjoyed and then imagine a world where your grand children cannot enjoy similar things........ it'd be bloody sad huh!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
[
My lion however has spent it's life in a large pen, has never been self sustaining, has recently been drugged and transported to a new area and has no idea of the terrain, the boundaries, the escape routes or the watering points etc.!

Just too correct your generalised comment, each one I have hunted has been released for between 6 months to 12 months before hunted,

If he could not find the water by then he would be a thirsty cat

JK

Canned lion hunts are not all the same. Without a doubt some bad things do go on with some of these hunts. There is no doubt some drugging goes on and some are taken in small enclosures shortly after release . On the other hand, some are taken in fairly large high fenced areas after being released months before. To put these hunts is the same category is like putting a Lamborghini and a VW in the same category because they are both cars.

JK

I'm not talking individual cases here, I'm talking generally and I'm sure that you know as well as I do that a captive bred lion that has been allowed such a wilding period is pretty unusual to say the very least..... most are translocated and then shot within a matter of days, sometimes/often a matter of hours.

I'm also sure you remember the proposed wilding period of 6 months that the fidiot Minister Van Schalkwyk wanted to introduce and then withdrew (more accurately, he withdrew lion from the list of dangerous animals in the act) at the last minute because he was threatened with legal action by the lion breeder's association?

Had that 6 month wilding period actually been introduced and adhered to for lions, I might not have had such a problem with the whole situation but we both know it was withdrawn because most landowners couldn't afford to keep a self sustaining lion on their property for that long and even if they could, they couldn't sell the 'hunt' because it'd be too expensive.

I'm also not suggesting it only happens in RSA...... you weren't on AR at the time but it was only a few years ago that a very well known member here reported a (then) recent case of a lion being translocated to the Zambezi Valley and shot just a few hours after release and the client finding out immediately afterwards and (quite understandably) refusing to pay.

I won't even go into the last PHASA vote on voluntary wilding periods except to say it was an utter bloody disgrace and that PHASA members should hang their heads in shame that it happened.

Larry

The ones that are allowed a significant wilding period of weeks, let alone months are about as rare as Lambos compared to VWs.

Steve:

That may be true but they do exist.

I am not sure even plains game is habituated. I am going to RSA for business on Saturday; I asked my business partner if there was a way I could squeeze in a hunt. He said a friend owned a farm, but if I wanted to hunt I needed to let him know quickly so he could order the animals.

The big difference I see on the hunt report in question is that the guy appears to be a booking agent and is characterizing this as a wild hunt. Most of us hate it when a TV show does this, so why the difference here on AR? What if Jim what's his face made the same post about bowhunting a drugged lion instead of showing it on his TV show?

But even if he isn't a booking agent, I think pointing out the guy's hunt was a canned hunt is not the same as saying "wow, small bear" or "why in the world would you shoot that?" It seems lots of us value hunt reports as a way to identify outfits we with whom we would like to hunt. Would you want another AR member booking this hunt thinking it is the same as a wild lion hunt in Tanz?

Larry,

I've never suggested they don't.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shakari:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jkhunter:
So Steve
Do I believe there are any wild lions in SA? - Yes and no......... there are a few that have been self sustaining etc in areas such as yours but (IMO) they are pretty much always far more habituated to people and vehicles than the wild lions in somewhere like the SGR in Tz and therefore their behaviour patterns are different...... "



Steve , I find this interesting. I have never been to Tanzania but will be doing so later this year. From what you are saying I gather you distinguish the Tanzania lions from the " habituated " lions by implying the lions in Tanzania are people shy ? I generally see the opposite from DVD's and film footage from my clients that have hunted there. I might be wrong off course.
I really have no dog in the fight but as an outfitter that has hunted the area around greater Kruger for more than 20 years and have hunted my fair share of Lions ( male and female - some with AR members ) over this time , I can tell you there were some really difficult hunts amongst them , with "habituated cats " outsmarting us and never getting put in the salt. There were off course the ones that take the bait readily and keep coming back but mostly it was hard work. Could I ever guarantee a cat . No . But that's hunting. I'm really glad you mention that ' canned ' lion hunting is not only happening in South Africa. I think hunters will be shocked to know how many Lions are / have been canned in ALL the other African countries. You have worked in the hunting industry and obviously also got to know about it.
I think we all have to be really careful on a public forum like AR to generalize and generally what we have to say about other people. Although there is freedom of speech , that freedom comes with responsibility.

My 2 cents worth and not meant to start a dick measuring contest with anyone.

Happy hunting

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I don't have an agenda at all nor am I trying to 'shape a policy'

I do however have a private opinion that I express when I so choose as per my right to free speech and as I'm not asking anyone else to agree with me or otherwise so I fail to see the point of your argument.

Sure, you have an agenda. It may be a bit of a moving target, but you did say this earlier:

"I care far more about the future of lions and real lion hunting than I care about individual opinions."

and you said:

"If we don't police ourselves, then someone will eventually do it for us and if that happens, they sure as hell won't be pro hunting and when they do ban lion hunting, all the forgivers and excusers will look round for someone to blame when if fact, the blame will lie with them and the purveyors and consumers of such despicable and unethical practices."


You have the right to "free speech" on this forum only because Saeed says so as this is a private enterprise. I certainly haven't suggested that Saeed consider editing your posts or otherwise.

I sympathize with your worries regarding the eventual ban of the importation of lions, and I'm also happy to see you are passionate about the subject. But I find your methods distasteful and disrespectful and hope you reconsider how you go about criticizing people who take the time to recount their experiences.

I may not agree with the manner in which Frostbit has slapped you around in the other thread, but you're hardly in a position to take the high ground.

After all, you intend to discredit and discourage the practice of South African "canned" lion hunting by posting comments that tarnish other's experiences with it - i.e. achieve the result that people think less of it and/or are less willing to participate in that type of hunting.

I don't personally know Frostbit, but I presume Frostbit blasted you because of your attempts to publicly tarnish other hunters' experiences. I also presume Frostbit will continue criticize you every time you post those types of comments until he achieves the result that you are less willing to do so or he generally discredits you.

This isn't rocket science. Public opinion matters and you and Frostbit are both attempting to use it in an effort to affect change.

Jan

I mean that habituated lions behave differently to wild lions...... sometimes more confident around people and vehicles, sometimes more aggressive and sometimes more educated but rarely, if ever, the same as truly wild, non habituated lions....... I've no evidence but from my general experience, this difference in behaviour has become more evident in recent years. 15 or so years ago, I used to walk a lot in one of the private reserves that border the KNP with the late Kay Hiscocks and I reckon that over those years, the lion behaviour changed dramatically..... possibly/probably because of the ever increasing numbers of illegal immigrants walking through and being eaten in, the KNP...... however, one thing I'm sure we both know is that no big cat is stupid and all learn from experience.

I'll be interested to hear your opinion after you've had a visit or two to TZ and seen how they behave there. (I should add that I also think the Masailand lions have different behaviour patterns to those in some other areas such as the SGR.

Tygersman,

I have an opinion, not an agenda. I have no plans to start a club, achieve prominence or fame and nor do I have any wish to become a spokesman of any kind for anything at all...... Therefore, no agenda.

I'm just expressing my personal opinion that canned lions are wrong and do long term damage to the sport and that I'd like to think the next generation will be able to enjoy some of the things that I and some others have enjoyed in the past. - quite simple really.

You also might like to re-read my posts because the only disrespect etc that I might be accused of is saying I don't give a fuck what people think of me or my opinions and I truly don't.

To me, the far more important issue is that canned lions be stopped and truly wild lions and the hunting thereof continue for the next generation and if my expressing those opinions pisses some people off and offends their finer sensibilities the so be it........ I don't care if they disapprove of me or my comments.

If Frostbit or anyone thinks I have 'attempted to publicly tarnish other hunters' experiences' then they haven't read or understood my comments at all.

And if you or anyone else thinks my comments now are harsh, just wait until that ban does come as it surely one day will.......... When that happens, I'll be giving no end of shit to the defenders and excusers of this despicable practice!

Let's see a picture of this bad boy.....

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Let's see a picture of this bad boy.....

I would like to see it as well. Interesting that the OP has not made another comment. Hmmmm......I wonder why.......

World Class Fishing and Hunting / Mr Webb who started this thread seems to have gone very silent after his one opening post.

No further comments on where the hunt took place, how everyone missed seeing the cat at 10 yards and where are the pictures ?

If I posted a report - as I have done - I would be happy and willing to answer questions and post pics even if not everyone agreed with my hunt or how I carried it out.

Warthogs at water pans
- canned lion
- leopard using lamps / lights
- leopard / caracal over hounds or
- closer to home put and take pheasant or quail hunts

everyone needs to draw their own lines IMO and be comfortable with how and why they hunt BUT lets be honest with ourselves and the non hunting public about the how and why.

Otherwise it will all turn into photos and memories.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Let's see a picture of this bad boy.....

I would like to see it as well. Interesting that the OP has not made another comment. Hmmmm......I wonder why.......

http://www.worldclassfishingan...ting.com/africa.html

From OP byline - this answers a lot if you read it carefully.

My favorite

Name: Lion Male (Free State)
Price: From $10000 upwards to $30,000 depending on age we recommend mature large lions in the $15000 to $22,000 range
Description: Large animal, hunt on foot- no bait.
Rifle use: .375 +
Bow: Yes

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Let's see a picture of this bad boy.....

I would like to see it as well. Interesting that the OP has not made another comment. Hmmmm......I wonder why.......

http://www.worldclassfishingan...ting.com/africa.html

From OP byline - this answers a lot if you read it carefully.

My favorite

Name: Lion Male (Free State)
Price: From $10000 upwards to $30,000 depending on age we recommend mature large lions in the $15000 to $22,000 range
Description: Large animal, hunt on foot- no bait.
Rifle use: .375 +
Bow: Yes

Mike

I struggle to see what is "world class" about this outfit or his hunts....

Just curious, are there any actual wild lion hunts in South Africa outside the areas bordering the KNP?

None that I am aware of, but then I stand to be corrected. If anyone on here knows otherwise it is probably jkhunter.

Yes there are. There are some in the Pilanesburg Park at minimum.

quote:

Originally posted by ManuelM:
Just curious, are there any actual wild lion hunts in South Africa outside the areas bordering the KNP?

That of course really depends on your definition of wild but if you mean wild bred and raised to be self sufficient, then yes, sure there are but not many in comparison to pen bred etc.

Most of those wild bred ones will have different behaviour patterns to truly wild lions such as might be found in places such as the SGR but that certainly doesn't make them any less dangerous and indeed quite the opposite might be argued.

The areas bordering the KNP will be some of the best areas to find such lions but of course, it's fairly easy to slip a ringer into such areas...... but that said, it's not impossible that introducing a ringer can't happen anywhere in Africa.... There was a case reported here a few years ago of it happening in the Zambezi Valley of Zim and even CITES issue licences for live, captive bred lions to be shipped to other African countries every year. The usual excuse is they go to travelling circuses but I kicked around Africa for over 30 years and I never even saw a travelling circus advertised, let alone set up and working. - However, although these things do occur, they are pretty damn rare.

quote:

The areas bordering the KNP will be some of the best areas to find such lions but of course, it's fairly easy to slip a ringer into such areas......

In all likelihood it is already established, what with the prospect of park lions wandering out and into the reserves after ranched buffalo.
It would be a piece of cake to pass a ringer or two into the area masquerading as a semi-tame park lion and shot by the unsuspecting client as a wild lion.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

That of course really depends on your definition of wild but if you mean wild bred and raised to be self sufficient, then yes, sure there are but not many in comparison to pen bred etc.

Most of those wild bred ones will have different behaviour patterns to truly wild lions such as might be found in places such as the SGR but that certainly doesn't make them any less dangerous and indeed quite the opposite might be argued.

The areas bordering the KNP will be some of the best areas to find such lions but of course, it's fairly easy to slip a ringer into such areas...... but that said, it's not impossible that introducing a ringer can't happen anywhere in Africa.... There was a case reported here a few years ago of it happening in the Zambezi Valley of Zim and even CITES issue licences for live, captive bred lions to be shipped to other African countries every year. The usual excuse is they go to travelling circuses but I kicked around Africa for over 30 years and I never even saw a travelling circus advertised, let alone set up and working. - However, although these things do occur, they are pretty damn rare.

I have hunted wild lions in Zambia Namibia Tanzania CAR and my Timbavati Concession in South Africa,


Our lions are no less wild than any other African Lion, I have been in all those countries and spotted and watched Lions during the day time on both Vehicle and while tracking Buffalo.

So to say so it BS, what makes our hunting different is that we are not allowed to bait Lions, we have to track on foot, 3 years ago we only shot our Lion on day 21 of the Safari, this year client could only hunt for 14 days and he left without his cat.

Just because it’s in South Africa does not make it a tame lion or even a Guaranteed Trophy,

Anyone who thinks so is just a chop........

JK

I don't think you understand my point...... what I'm trying to say is a lion in an area such as the KNP becomes habituated to things such as the people and vehicles because it sees lots of them on a daily basis and therefore develops different behaviour patterns/reactions compared to a lion that does not see people/vehicles on a daily basis.

I'm not suggesting they're less dangerous and as I've repeatedly said, quite the opposite could be argued but a habituated lion (or other big cat) will not have the same behaviour patterns as a truly wild lion.

As an (extreme) example of that, look at the leopards that Kim Wolhuter films so brilliantly...... he's got those cats so habituated to his particular vehicle, they ignore his presence and he's able to get all that fantastic footage of them....... no unhabituated leopard would let him get more than a split second of footage before they baled out.

Frankly, I don't understand why anyone would think otherwise because without meaning to be rude to anyone, it's bloody obvious to me at least that a habituated big cat will pretty always behave differently to one that isn't habituated.

I should also point out that any lion that spends all it's time in the Timbavati probably won't be as habituated as a lion that lives next door to one of the large public camps such as Sabie where it'll see umpteen cars an hours buzzing about and therefore a Timbavati lion will be more inclined to have wild lion behaviour patterns than the Sabie lion will have.

At the risk of going off topic for a moment, I used to spend a fair bit time walking around the Sabie Sand reserve with the late Kay Hiscocks (who was their zoologist & entomologist) back in the 90s....... and I reckon that over a 5 or 6 year period (maybe longer) or so, there was a change in the lion behaviour that I always thought was probably caused by the ever increasing number of illegal immigrants trying to walk through the park into RSA...... in the later years, we sometimes found abandoned personal items etc in the bush which presumably the owners had either dropped whilst trying to evade the big predators or when they were killed by them......... Did you notice any similar thing in your area?

This WAS a hunt report.

quote:

Originally posted by Boone & Crockett:
This WAS a hunt report.

WAS is right.

took 1 hr to pick up definite fresh track,

Is there still any argument?