Did you sever the artery which runs along the spine? Its common for bow hunters to shoot through the spine and get a kill without reaching other organs.Granted they don't die fast but they do bleed out when shot in the spine where you hit. Was the killshot not taken to the head to preserve the trophy or was he thrashing about too much? I've read about the shot filled 50 Bmg bullets making some impressive wounds you make them from a belted magnum case.

Thanks for posting you have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. Natures predators kill much more harshly. And so do about 50% of the hunters in Mich in deer season. Just walk thru a meat processor during deer season. Ive taken alot of cripples/limpers when shooting on farm permits. Mostly injured from Bows, rimfires (small calibers) or Automobiles.

Deer shouldn't be shot with a 50BMG, only terrorist's!

I was curiuos what someone like you does with all the varmits you kill?sounds to me like you are using them for practice.If it is ok for you to take all that life just for practice,but this guy can not shoot a deer with a fifty which does less damage then your varmit rifle. I am sure this guy will eat his deer.What do you do with all those varmits that you spend hours Killing for just for practice.
E]Originally posted by Wayne J.:
Yes, there are variables involved with hunting. One practices at ranges one expects to hunt. I, for example, spend several hours and days shooting at long range...varmints. I know exactly what 10, 15, 20 even 30 mph wind does to my projectiles in excess of 710m. If one expects to shoot/hunt at long ranges....one should be well acquainted with ones rifle, ammo and shooting conditions. One should understand the effects of altitude, temp and humidity on ones projectile....at long range. Yes, there are variables but one does not have to walk out in the field naively.

When I hunt large game....I make sure the shot is well within my means to make an accurate, clean kill. That does Not necessarily mean they drop on the spot. However, shooting an animal in the hind quarter cannot be considered a clean kill. The shot disabled the animal...and eventually it would die. But all hunters I know....make sure all the "Variables" are in their favor.....or they simply do not take the shot...it's as simple as that. I also set up targets at the ranges I expect to shoot at the day before I go big game hunting. The weather and altitude are very close to my hunting conditions......so I know what my rifle is capable of. I also use a lasr range finder before I make a shot.

I simply think it's wrong to stroll out in the field with an attitude of experimentation. I think a target posted at the 710m would have been in order before attempting the shot. The .50 BMG certainly has the capability of making a clean kill at distances much greater....but it takes practice....other than the hunt.

This is not meant to inflame people. I enjoy long range shooting and hate to see bad outcomes. I simply want gents to think seriously before pulling the trigger...especially long range shots on big game. Where I hunt, ranchers refuse to let "Strangers" hunt their property because of all the botched shots. They simply do not want to see the animals wasted because they wonder off seriously injured and die without being taken by the hunter.

Wayne[/QUOTE]

That sounds like a great day of hunting. My only comment is that I wish i could have been there to see it!!! Jim R

A target shooter will take a shot just to see where it will strike, a hunter will take a shot they know will strike it's mark. I am capable of 10 inch groups with my 7mm mag at 800 yards on paper, but have never taken a shot at a animal over 500 yards, this distance is what i am confident in making a clean kill 99.9% of the time(.01% of the time things happen that are out of your controle). Any one who takes a shot at an animal should know that they are capable of making the strike with what ever wepon that they choose wether 1000 yards with a 50 bmg or 150 yards with a 45/70. know your limits take a shot you are certan you can make, and respect the game you choose to hunt... IF YOU CAN'T YOU ARE JUST ANOTHER ASS IN THE WOODS SHOOTING AT A BROWN SPOT IN THE BRUSH HOPING YOU HIT SOMETHING.

Great info from all sides, I have never and likely will never shoot that far, nor have I shot or expect to shoot a 50, but it is all great discussion.

I think we all as hunters strive for perfect kills, no suffering, I lost a deer last year that looked like a great hit, down in tracks which later got up and left never to be seen, it was near dark. Range-150 yards or so, point is things happen, I think the poster is like many of us, likes to do a little research and find out what his equipment will do, we all are curious as to just how far can I make a good hit and my gun is capable, but as much as I enjoy shooting and out to the 400 yds that I shoot at the range-and one clean kill at that distance on deer, I enjoy the hunt itself even more, the excitement of an animal up close, pitting my wits against its senses and getting the edge to take them up close. That has been my most satisfying hunts, albeit the most boring shots.

Those close ones get the heart pumping but that is me.

I enjoyed reading all the comments and appreciate the poster showing his success......ALL animals hunted are subjected to the potential of suffering a little when hunted and I believe all on this thread-inc. MS wants and strives for clean kills 100% of the time, but we all know Murphy's law, and longer ranges likely increases those chances things go unexpected.

Good hunting, safe hunting, and clean kills to all.

Congratulations, "Eddie Bauer." You have just taken the hunt out of hunting. You must feel like you have really accomplished something here...BTW how long did the animal suffer while you made up the 750 distance for your finishing shot?

Murftj,

You use a modern centerfire cartridge rifle?

You use magnum caliber ?

You use a Scope?

You use a jacketed bullet?

You use.....

My great grandfather felt that using anything except a BP cartridge rifles with castbullet and shooting farther away than 200 yards was not Hunting

My grandfather felt that if you needed anything larger than a 30/06 and had to have optics it was not Hunting

My dad felt that if you needed more than a 30/30 and shot farther than 200 yards it was not Hunting

A former boss, who hunts all over North America, feels that using anything other than a Flintlock rifle/shotgun, is not Hunting

So, based upon your opinion this was taking the Hunt out of hunting, but, then the 4 opinions I listed above all indicate that they felt equally strong that advancements in technology and design of firearms and hunting practices also took the Hunt out of hunting.

Who's right? Who's wrong? and can anyone of us climb up on the pulpit and holding manifesto in hand shout to the hunting world that WE know the only true path all must follow it or be amongst the unbelievers.

Quote:

"BTW how long did the animal suffer while you made up the 750 distance for your finishing shot"

How long, is the general rule of thumb to wait, before you go after a big game animal you just shot? 15 minutes, 30 minute, 60 minutes?

I bow hunt and generally wait 30 minutes or better after the shot, to give the animal a chance to bleed out, if you want to draw a line in the sand of suffering, how's that? I wait 20 minutes or so after shooting a big game animal with a muzzle loader or modern rifle, unless it's DRT, so I must obviously be intent on causing the animal to suffer, since I am waiting for it to settle down and die, instead of chasing it and trying to dispatch it quicker.

The time it took to travel the 710 meters, is probably the same as we would wait, before we started to track down the game animal we shot at the much shorter range, so be careful, someone might call you a hypocrit.

Call me what you will, but I don't have to wait at all after I make my shot. Why? Because I hunt the animal, and get a good shot, so that I make a quick, humane, one shot kill. So there is no waiting and no tracking. Where do you draw the line? If you could get a hold of RPG's, would you use those on deer?

murftj,
You are entitled to your opinion but, IT'S GETTING A LITTLE DEEP.... I have killed enough deer in my life to know what you are shoveling here, and it ain't daisies..
I have made the PERFECT heart/lung shot before on MANY occasions and the deer still ran a surprizing distance... Anybody who has "hunted" whitetail a lot can tell you a number of different times that the same thing has happened to them too...
Following your "suffering" logic, as Maltese mentions, bow huntin is inhumane to you too because of the "normal" time that elapses from when the animal is actualy "hit" and eventually "dies"...
According to YOUR perception, MS did a wrong... I stand by my previous statement... I have seen similar shots on deer at 1/7th the distance MS took his at... I say BRAVO MS...
COULD it have been a better shot... Even according to MS's own admission, maybe...
COULD it have been worse... MOST DEFINITELY....
Does MS deserve the "poor hunter" abuse... I think not...
As far as your RPG statement... In terms of "dispatcing the animal with the greatest of speed", if THAT is as simple as your definition of "humane hunting" is, the RPG would be the BEST of weapons to use wouldn't it? But would an RPG be an ETHICAL weapon to "hunt" with? There wouldn't be too much of the animal left afterward for "harvesting" and without a "harvest", the basis of the hunt has now come to rest entirely on the act of the KILL... Is that what you want?
How about this guy who deer hunt with a CANNON one time:
Hunt with a Howitzer
I am sure this animal didn't suffer much... Probaly WAY less than the last time you shot a deer with 1 measily bullet... Is HE a more ethical hunter than you?

Where do I draw the line? you ask...


Let's see a couple guys I know of in Alberta Canada are designing a hunting type bullet for a 14.5 mm PTRS rifle and another guy I know in Manitoba has a legally owned 40 mm Bofors gun and he is working on a hunting type bullet for it.

I know another with a 12 pounder Napolean, who has thought about using it in a muzzleloader season, with a canister charge.

Then there is a club member who is going to use a lance and a horse.

I have even talked with a couple guys using an heavy hunting type spear or short sword for boar hunting...I think they are nuts personally...


I draw it where I feel comfortable, but I will not sit in judgement on others who have a vastly different comfort level and want to go out and stretch the envelope, so to speak or hunt, in a manner outside the accepted norm.

A Ma Deuce is nothing.
Check these guys out.....

http://www.buckstix.com/howitzer.htm

Sorry,PJS50.
I see that you posted the site before me.

That's OK Poletax....
The more information the better...
The Howitzer hunting thing SURE makes one appreciate the soldiers that went up against THAT "technology" doesn't it?

thanks for posting the pics

Shooting .50 at long distance has taught me to be humble like when I first shot at 300 meters many years ago.

When one thinks that almost one second is necessary to reach the target, one can say it's a good shot and not a spray and pray type shooting or vaguely aimed shooting.

Bravo!

Steyr HS 50, isn't it?

To the original poster, did you consider this a success, or near failure?

quote:

Posted 23 December 2005 00:44
To the original poster, did you consider this a success, or near failure?

Consider what a success or failure???

Any hunt where you can take home meat I consider a success. As I mentioned in previous posts, shot placement could have been better.

Yes, its a Steyr HS-50.

Good morning, all! I haven’t posted on AR in some time (although I read it daily) and never before on this particular forum, so it’s a real surprise to me to be posting here today.

Let me ask Paul H’s question using slightly different words: Had the POI on the subject animal been 4†lower and the animal escaped wounded, would this discussion sound the same?

Now, hang on before you pull those knives! Let me say at the outset that I have absolutely NO QUESTIONS about either M-S’ knowledge of his equipment, trajectory, loads and CERTAINLY not his ability. Putting a hit on target (within what…18†of POA?) at 710m under field conditions tells me all I need to know about both his knowledge AND his ability. The 50 BMG is, was and always will be a phenomenal round, and the new launch platforms for it are equally impressive. This technology, combined with a savvy shooter on the back end, makes hits at these kinds of ranges (while not child’s play) certainly do-able. And M-S has the venison to prove it…

And for me, that’s where the rub comes in…comparing hits versus kills. I’ve watched silhouette shooters (far, FAR better shooters than yours truly) clean their rams from offhand with silly regularity, which might argue for their shooting deer in the field in a like manner. However, a fallen ram counts as dead whether hit at the base of the horn curl or in the hock joint…so long as it comes off the rail. I tend to view the taking of game at extreme ranges in a similar light; unless I’m close enough to reliably strike the vitals, I’m not willing to risk shooting them up around the fringes.

As mentioned by earlier posters (on both sides of the aisle), the TOF of the bullet at this range is substantial…more than enough time for the game’s position to shift relative to sight picture when the shot was gotten off. Let’s not even open the can of worms related to the vagaries of wind speed along the way downrange.

I cannot agree with previous posters involving “instant†kills…while we all strive for that outcome, the realities of the hunting field prevent that far more than they allow it. Over the years I’ve made my share of DRT shots, had a lot of (most, in fact) heart/lung hits run the requisite distance and tip over and yes, I’ve botched shots that required tracking up. Lost a couple, too…and it’s those haunting memories that keep my shots a heap closer than when I was younger. Nope, you’ve got to break eggs to make an omelet…you just don’t need to lob them at the skillet from across the kitchen!

Damn but I’m windy on a Christmas Eve morning…so let me tie a ribbon on this contribution to the discussion. Once again, M-S…you have my admiration and respect for your shooting ability, but what if that shot had been 4†lower? It's something I hope you'll consider...and I'm betting you already have; shooters of your ability are well versed in how small details yeild large consequences.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment...and a Merry Christmas to all!

Mark

Perhaps another way to look at it is:

A long shot is an example of shooting skill.

A short shot is an example of hunting skill.

Whaddabout a medium range shot?

A medium shot is a skilled shooter working his/her way towards being a skilled hunter. Or, possibly, and older hunter slowly losing his/her hunting skills.

If a guy wants to shoot deer at 1500 yards, I see nothing wrong with it.

And although shot placement was not perfect, I have seen guys shoot the toenails off a deer at 25 yards due to crappy marksmanship. That is not how it should be, but it is reality. So there is nothing here to get worked up over.

Anybody who has killed many big game animals has occasionally made less than perfect shot placement. Evan as an ethical hunter, I have on occasion made a few shots, at much closer range, that were not my proudest moments. What I am proud of is that I have recovered every deer I have pulled the trigger on. The difference is I wouldn't have posted the pictures on the internet for every one to critique. John

I've got to admit I smiled while reading over the "deer hunting with the howizer" article. That's what delinquents do, in their spare time, while they are not coming up with new computer viruses. John

lets go squirrel hunting with 45-70s

I missed with my 375RUM, little bugger was so close to red mist, he had no idea.

Its pretty bad when a 30-06 has to finnish the the job!

quote:

lets go squirrel hunting with 45-70s

If that floats your boat do it. Just like the guy who shot a deer with the .50 bmg. I assume he ate the deer, so I see nothing wrong with it. I would not do it, But I do not own a .50 yet either. When I was 11, I shot a squirrel with a 3" 12ga slug at about 20 yards. It blew up. I was young,dumb, and curious. So is someone going to come to me now and tell me I am not a good hunter and that If I did things his way it would be good. I am a little tired of people being "elite" IMO, it is a "savage" act and I can think of 99 better things to do with my time than to act like I am better than every one.

quote:

Originally posted by Wayne J.:
I, for example, spend several hours and days shooting at long range...varmints. I know exactly what 10, 15, 20 even 30 mph wind does to my projectiles in excess of 710m.

Wayne:

With all due respect, if you are insuating that with enough practice one can shoot in a 30 mph wind at 780 yards and hit a deer reliably, I have got to see it, because you are indeed a wonderful shot. I shoot several times a week at those ranges (just did today in fact) and I am continually amazed at what a slight shift in wind does to bullets at that range. In Arizona, which is windier that most places, it is extremely unusual to find winds ever blowing 30 mph - that is a strong wind - a wind incidentally, that will blow a 50 BMG 750 Hornady AMAX 50 inches. The most I have ever clicked for and had a first round hit (within 5 inches of aimpoint) was 30 at 700 yards, which is 52.5 inches of drift. But that was complete luck, as I had never shot under those conditions and haven't since.

I am all for long range shooting, but I think there is a practical limit: when your bullet drifts more than about 3 inches per one mile of wind drift, it gets dicey to dope the wind. 4 inches or more and you really give a fuck more about your shooting range than the animal.

BTW, that 50 BMG drifts 1.66 inches per mile of wind at 780 yards, a mere pitance compared to the drifts some guys live with when they shoot at 1000 yards with their .338 Super Mag.

Seems this deer was out of range of your skills.

I am sure that some of you morons that are whinning about this have made much worse shots on game much closer. Do you get pissed at people who take pop-shots at coyotes too?!?! It seems to me like hunters attacking hunters is maybe not such a good thing and has to do with why some places our sport has been limited so. If he was out there trying to blow the deer up just to see what amazing damage his gun would do then that would be another story. In my opinion, and if you disagree your wrong, my 270 with ballistic tips could mess the deer up just as bad if not worse.

Any of you critisizers make it over to the varmit forum to chastize them about shooting at those poor prarie dogs at 500 or 1000 yards??? Yell at them for not eating it or watching it drag its upper half around after getting smoked by a 220 swift?? I bet not, and if anything Id imagine most of you would jump at the opportunity to go shoot some ground rodents or already do.

Give the guy a break. Speaking of ethics, I think anyone who has somewhat walked the walk that most people in here talk yet havent done would not be so judgmental concerning the subject. Im not saying Ive done it all but after reading some of these idiotic replies Im willing to bet the furthest some of you have gotten is nothing past the key board.

Sometimes keeping the mind open and mouth shut is the best option.

Good Hunting,
Justin

guys, have you ever seen deer walk? whats that you say? they walk? yes, they do. How do you know that the deer didn't begin to walk when he fired the shot. heck, maybe the wind picked up right when he squeezed it off

quote:

Sometimes keeping the mind open and mouth shut is the best option.

Look in the mirror when you say that.

Whats your problem here; I did not pick out and attack you. If you have a problem with me pm me and well settle this. Seems like alot of you people are happy with attacking something different. What type of hunting do you do? I bet you have killed everything with one shot too. You come off as the "ethical god" so I bet use every part of the game you harvest so nothing goes to waste as that wouldnt be ethical. Maybe you can write down a guide for us all on how to be perfect???? Ill be waiting....

Justin

quote:

Give the guy a break. Speaking of ethics, I think anyone who has somewhat walked the walk that most people in here talk yet havent done would not be so judgmental concerning the subject. Im not saying Ive done it all but after reading some of these idiotic replies Im willing to bet the furthest some of you have gotten is nothing past the key board

Lion, I agree with what you say about this topic. I have done a great deal of hunting my whole life, out of nesessity not enjoyment. Had I not hunted, and taken a few uncomfortably long shots over the years, there would have been alot more dinner times than dinners. But what gets to me is when I tell such a story from my life, there is always some "arm- chair expert" right there to tell you that you are lying, did it wrong, or are full of shit because in the book he read it in (not in his experience) such a thing is statistically impossible or some such shit.
And as for ethics, I find it unethical to comment on something unless you can truly "walk the walk".

quote:

Originally posted by stubbleduck47:
Perhaps another way to look at it is:

A long shot is an example of shooting skill.

A short shot is an example of hunting skill.

Let me add one more variable:

A long shot is a skilled shot; a short shot is a stupid deer. How 'bout that? I bet 90% of the 35-50 yd shots these "hunters" use to justify their skill is on 3 yr old deer or younger. Where is the hunting skill in that?

quote:

A long shot is a skilled shot; a short shot is a stupid deer. How 'bout that? I bet 90% of the 35-50 yd shots these "hunters" use to justify their skill is on 3 yr old deer or younger. Where is the hunting skill in that?

That's where the skill is as far as I'm concerned. A two or three year old is fine eating, know how to pick them out and your set.

Arctic Gun, I am in aggreeance with you 100%. Its easy to sit back and tear apart the man in the arena who is trying his best or is just having a fun time. Its a shame to consistantly read the constant, very rarely neccessary, critisizum that takes place not only on this site but concerning the outdoor subject as a whole. Some people seem to have jacked themselves onto a tower so high, in their own mind, and procced to dictate what is and what isnt for all the whole.

Its something how so many of us arent willing to identify what we all have in common verse what we all have different. In some places the "what we all have different" has allowed those who hate us and our sport to be not only be severly limited but taken away.

This is just my .2 cents. At my point in life Im a student in a doctoral program and just to be able to afford an afternoon drive into a wild place much less tags and proper gear is beyond me; Im not expecting nor do I want sypathy for this and I give this man credit for being able to afford such things to make his dream a reality.

Nothing about this type of hobby is cheap: equipment, time, nor location; but to trash the experiance that this person created is nothing but the lowest form to me.

Good Hunting,
Justin

Looks like I stired up a hornets nest. Everyone has their own opinion and values. If you dont think its right, your free to express your opinion. Thats why we live in a free country.

I do, however, take offence when people try to tell me that I am unethical and unskilled as a hunter... etc. First of all, you do not know me or how I hunt. Secondly, I have done something that I wanted to do and learned from the experience. (No laws were broken and I have practiced ethical hunting according to the law of the land where I am and my own beliefs.) I wanted to share my experience, be it good or bad with the forum.

I do not think that I have expressed myself as "the be all and end all of hunters" or an "expert" of any kind. If I have, I appologize. Just an average hunter that has done something that not many people do or experience.

For all those that have read this post and gathered useful information, I am glad.

just my 2 cents....