Chuck Karwan warns "Don't take a handgun to a gunfight." You may be limited to a handgun, but it's a good idea not to make the handgun your first choice for defense.

Long-guns -- I have lots of choices. Mostly for "defense" I worry about shooting bystanders in populated areas. The AK is great out in the woods, but for day in, day out, I'll go with a shotgun.

Pretty standard choice: Rem. 870 Wingmaster, 20" bbl. 12 gauge, 2 3/4" chamber, Imp Cyl. I like #1 buck -- more pellets, less likely to penetrate walls in an interior scenario.

I had a "pistol grip" stock, and then went back to the standard shoulder stock. The extended mag is a nice feature, but my gun didn't come with it. I keep looking at the Rem. 870 "Marine" in nickel plated, extended mag tube, synthetic stock, 3" chamber.

I was looking at the Sig Sauer P556 -- pistol in .223 Rem. But at $2,000 it seemed to have limited application, and the shotgun has worked just fine for me so far.

I have a spanish made 'Elibar' that has been sawed off to 20 inch barrels from 36 inch. Its a 10 guage mag with dual triggers. Its loadedwith #4 buck (54 pellets per shell). Inside 25 yards its real nasty!

I have a 12 gauge 870 by my bed as well. I prefer #4 lead shot. Inside of 50 ft. it's gonna tear em apart, yet it won't pass through the walls as badly as buckshot. I have witnessed a hunting accident where a friend was hit by about 20 pellets of #8 dove load at 60 yds. He was sitting (he went about 160 at the time)and it blew him off his stool and back about ten feet. I don't foresee having to shoot any farther than that. I also have a .41 in my pants if needed. I have personally scared off a wannabe burglar by cycling a shell. You can't do that with a .45

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:
I have a 12 gauge 870 by my bed as well. I prefer #4 lead shot. Inside of 50 ft. it's gonna tear em apart, yet it won't pass through the walls as badly as buckshot. I have witnessed a hunting accident where a friend was hit by about 20 pellets of #8 dove load at 60 yds. He was sitting (he went about 160 at the time)and it blew him off his stool and back about ten feet. I don't foresee having to shoot any farther than that. I also have a .41 in my pants if needed. I have personally scared off a wannabe burglar by cycling a shell. You can't do that with a .45

Bro- you covered about every chapter of shotgun mythology in one post. I've never seen a trifecta like that.
First, 20 pellets of #8 shot weighs a grand total of 21.4 grains which, even if it were a singular projectile, would not have the KE necessary to push a 160 lb human back ten feet at point blank range, much less 60 yards. What you saw was your buddy react to being shot the same way he would have reacted to 20 hornet stings.... he jumped the opposite direction as hard as he could (If there was an Olympic event for the seated side jump, he may have won the Gold).
Second, #4 birdshot (as you stated that you didn't use buckshot) is .13 caliber and weighs about 3 and a quarter grains a piece. A one ounce load has about 135 pellets in it which will each behave as individual projectiles upon impact. I promise you, you will be sorely disappointed with the terminal performance of this load for self defense. If you like, try it out on a 150 lbs whitetail from as close as you can get him. In the event the deer actually dies before you give up tracking him, you will find that #4 birdshot produces ugly but very shallow wounds (less than 4 inches) and will not reliably stop anything except birds. Are turkeys ripped apart by #4 shot? Why would humans get treated differently?

Third, the magic of "shuck shuck" is vastly overrated. A burglar will spook at any sign of a homeowner because a burglar is looking for easy money not trouble. But, there are more determined critters in the world that could care less about an easy buck or the sound of your shotgun.
But what is the real danger of believing in the power of "shuck shuck"? The danger is that homeowners will go looking for bad guys with an unchambered weapon falsely believing that they will certainly get the drop on the dude and have time to cycle the weapon. And there is a very real possibility that will not be the case, isn't there?
How many guys have lost a good animal because they didn't chamber a round when they got in the stand? Losing a gunfight works the same way.

Finally, birdshot is for birds. The absolute smallest buckshot anyone can expect decent penetration from is #1 buck which is .30 caliber pellets weighing 40 grains each.
Would anyone say that a .25 Auto is a devastating weapon? A proven "manstopper"? No. But that bullet has about the same energy of a single #1 buck pellet. So that means that in order for a shotgun to be effective, we must land multiple pellets with the same shot, otherwise we could just search the house with a Q beam and a Baby Browning and call it good.
We also have to consider that our target may not actually want to get shot. The critter may have the audacity to hide behind Mamma's sofa and engage me with his Lorcin from cover.(Gunfights often tend to be two way affairs). With all this decades long yammering about "overpenetration", people have forgotten that there is a difference betwen cover and concealment. Concealment will hide you but cover stops rounds. Shooting underpowered ammunition with lower penetration means your adversary has more "cover" than you do and with Lorcin 9mm loaded with Walmart FMJ, he can now reach you through every available piece of furniture in the average home. But, the guy with birdshot can't.

I have yet to meet a person who has used birdshot successfully in an indoor gunfight against an armed adversary and been satisfied with the results. Sorry to be so harsh, but empty chambers and birdshot are good ways to get killed.

Chet

Have a Mossberg 920 military riot gun (20" 8 rnd) 12 gauge loaded w 00 buck in the main house. Live in the country, so penetration is less a problem than it would be in the 'burbs.

There is folded stock SPAS-12 with a square pattern shot diverter in the shop safe loaded w #4 buck next the the short AR-15.

I've got a 20" 870 in one part of the house loaded with six 3" 000 in the seven round magazine and Brenneke slugs in the side saddle.

But I put more faith in the M-4 rifle in the other end of the house with dual 30 round magazines.

You even get that "shuck - shuck" noise when you chamber a round.

quote:

Originally posted by ChetNC:

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:
I have a 12 gauge 870 by my bed as well. I prefer #4 lead shot. Inside of 50 ft. it's gonna tear em apart, yet it won't pass through the walls as badly as buckshot. I have witnessed a hunting accident where a friend was hit by about 20 pellets of #8 dove load at 60 yds. He was sitting (he went about 160 at the time)and it blew him off his stool and back about ten feet. I don't foresee having to shoot any farther than that. I also have a .41 in my pants if needed. I have personally scared off a wannabe burglar by cycling a shell. You can't do that with a .45

Bro- you covered about every chapter of shotgun mythology in one post. I've never seen a trifecta like that.
First, 20 pellets of #8 shot weighs a grand total of 21.4 grains which, even if it were a singular projectile, would not have the KE necessary to push a 160 lb human back ten feet at point blank range, much less 60 yards. What you saw was your buddy react to being shot the same way he would have reacted to 20 hornet stings.... he jumped the opposite direction as hard as he could (If there was an Olympic event for the seated side jump, he may have won the Gold).
Second, #4 birdshot (as you stated that you didn't use buckshot) is .13 caliber and weighs about 3 and a quarter grains a piece. A one ounce load has about 135 pellets in it which will each behave as individual projectiles upon impact. I promise you, you will be sorely disappointed with the terminal performance of this load for self defense. If you like, try it out on a 150 lbs whitetail from as close as you can get him. In the event the deer actually dies before you give up tracking him, you will find that #4 birdshot produces ugly but very shallow wounds (less than 4 inches) and will not reliably stop anything except birds. Are turkeys ripped apart by #4 shot? Why would humans get treated differently?

Third, the magic of "shuck shuck" is vastly overrated. A burglar will spook at any sign of a homeowner because a burglar is looking for easy money not trouble. But, there are more determined critters in the world that could care less about an easy buck or the sound of your shotgun.
But what is the real danger of believing in the power of "shuck shuck"? The danger is that homeowners will go looking for bad guys with an unchambered weapon falsely believing that they will certainly get the drop on the dude and have time to cycle the weapon. And there is a very real possibility that will not be the case, isn't there?
How many guys have lost a good animal because they didn't chamber a round when they got in the stand? Losing a gunfight works the same way.

Finally, birdshot is for birds. The absolute smallest buckshot anyone can expect decent penetration from is #1 buck which is .30 caliber pellets weighing 40 grains each.
Would anyone say that a .25 Auto is a devastating weapon? A proven "manstopper"? No. But that bullet has about the same energy of a single #1 buck pellet. So that means that in order for a shotgun to be effective, we must land multiple pellets with the same shot, otherwise we could just search the house with a Q beam and a Baby Browning and call it good.
We also have to consider that our target may not actually want to get shot. The critter may have the audacity to hide behind Mamma's sofa and engage me with his Lorcin from cover.(Gunfights often tend to be two way affairs). With all this decades long yammering about "overpenetration", people have forgotten that there is a difference betwen cover and concealment. Concealment will hide you but cover stops rounds. Shooting underpowered ammunition with lower penetration means your adversary has more "cover" than you do and with Lorcin 9mm loaded with Walmart FMJ, he can now reach you through every available piece of furniture in the average home. But, the guy with birdshot can't.

I have yet to meet a person who has used birdshot successfully in an indoor gunfight against an armed adversary and been satisfied with the results. Sorry to be so harsh, but empty chambers and birdshot are good ways to get killed.

Chet

I'm glad that we have such an expert on the board. You are absolutely wrong about the KE of the bird shot. I'll put the practical experience of my buddy having his ass blown off his bucket against your thoughts anyday.

Penetration isn't what I'm looking for, as I stated. I have plenty of experience with a shotgun, and I couldn't have a shot within my house of more than thirty or thirty five feet or so. I have no doubt, and indeed put my life riding on, a major hole being blown into my adversary by a close range load of #4's. I'd rather shoot twice than through a wall anyway.

Also, I didn't say I had an empty chamber and I loaded a shell in my post, if you had read it. I said I cycled another shell. It worked. He left, and my family was safe without anyone having to die. That was a good scenario as far as I'm concerned.

I'm glad you liked the trifecta, but I think your a little pompous. I'm not speaking from theory. A load of #4 at ten yds. hits with WAY more energy than a .45 at same (more than twice as much, I looked it up), and about a 3" pattern. 1 and 1/8 oz. of shot is about double the weight of a 230gr. slug, and leaves with several hundred fps. more velocity. Try shooting your buckshot at a couple of layers of sheet rock and see if you want your kids on the other side of that wall.

You can go for all the penetration you want. I stand by my suggestion. No man taking a load of #4 lead shot in the chest at ten yds +/- is going to be fighting back. He's going to be on the ground dieing quickly. Hopefully still containing every pellet. Just my opinion. But I have just gotten home from an engagement party for the friend of mine who was shot by birdshot. I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you how in effective it was, even at sixty yds.

Please remember that more and more a BG may be high on alcohol and drugs.That means that he might not even hear the shuck-shuck or your commands ! And "stopping power" may mean nothing to a nervous system that's so altered.You must have penetration into vital organs, nothing else will do. Buckshot [reduced recoil rounds work fine in the house] is better.Never shoot to wound, shot until the BG is no longer a threat. Be ready for more than one BG.

Do ya'll really think that #4 wouldn't penetrate the sternum and ribs at inside the house ranges? I can't believe that it wouldn't. I know for absolute certain that it will blow a 4" hole all the way through an armadillo. I can't foresee anyone getting up after one of those center mass. We're only talking about shooting a man, not an elephant or rhino. Men aren't that tough.

I have no intention of, nor did I imply that I would "shoot to wound". I have six shots, and a 41 mag in my belt. If ya'll don't feel comfortable using #4, fine. I don't feel comfortable taking a chance on killing a member of my family in another room.

I always thought #4 buck was the best choice, but I'm lazy and Steel T's or Trip B's in a 3 1/2" 12 or 10 have generally got the nod for home defense because I've got lot's of that ammo. Haven't had to use it, but I suspect that at in the house ranges, anything I shot with it would be DRT or the blood trail wouldn't be hard to follow.

For pistol truck/home defense, I like my .454 Casull. Shoots through walls, car doors, etc. Plusses and minuses there. Just be aware of it. Don't want unintended people getting hit, but at the same time, the bad guys can run, but they can't hide -- behind a couch as suggested.

Also disagree with the sound of a .45 chambering a round not scaring off a burglar, my real home defense favorite. Once, I confronted someone breaking into my truck. I had nothing but a pair of boxer shorts, a 1911 and one magazine. I got his attention with a bad word. Slammed the magazine home and chambered a round with the pistol pointed at his head -- albeit at about 10 feet. He cleared a very tall wood fence behind him in one fluid motion. Looked like an olympic athlete. Pretty damn funny.

That was a long time ago and we were living in apartments and rented townhouses. The residents had been having a lot of vehicle breakins. That was the last one so long as I lived there.

ChetNC you got it right! I would have no intention of ejecting a perfectly good shell from my shotgun, but, whatever floats your boat!
Peter.

Sorry to sound pompous but KE is strictly math:
#8 pellet=.09 caliber,1.07 grains each, assuming the round was a normal dove load @ 1200 fps muzzle velocity, you'd get 3.42 lbs of energy per pellet. I bet there was not a pellet that penetrated more than a half inch. There is simply no physical way those pellets "blew" anyone off a bucket at that range. You saw your buddy's reflexive reaction to being stung by pellets. Most people would have had exactly the same startle/pain response. It's not a dig on you at all. It's just the explanation for what you saw.
Bullet energy calculator
Even #6 birdshot at 1300 fps (.11 caliber and 1.95 grains each) will only penetrate about 5 inches of ordnance gelatin. Add clothes and ribs/sternum/scapula/skull to that equation and there is simply no reasonable expectation that the load will stop a determined attacker.
Here's a #8 Heavy Dove load in ballistic gelatin. Less than 5 inches of penetration and remember that is minus bone and clothing:

The power is simply not there.

I don't agree with everything from this particular site, but here are some more thoughts on shotguns in the home defense role:
Firearms Tactical Brief #10
And again, I don't mean to be unduly harsh, but willingly dumping a round in self defense situation simply to invoke the power of shuck shuck is not really any smarter than walking out with an empty chamber.
Cruise around the Box o' Truth site. See what they have to say about pellet penetration. Although admittedly anecdotal, read their reports of the police officer and eye witness who both saw ambulatory patients with center mass hits from birdhot at close range.
[URL=Box o Truth ]http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm[/URL]

I'm not an expert. Far from it. But I have studied under some. In my experience, humans can be extremely difficult to kill, much less stop (which is your actual goal in a self defense situation).
After cruising the net for a decade, I realize that a lot of guys will never let go of the untried and unproven "knowledge" they picked up at the gun counter, and they will get quite offended when someone challenges it with either science or experience.

Oh well. Take it for what it is. Free advice on the innuhnetz.

ChetNC

Willingly dumping a round worked. Period. I still had five. I don't miss much. I get the Math of KE, reread my post. A load of #4 (which I don't consider to be birdshot) weighs more than twice what a 45 slug weighs, and is going several hundred feet per second faster, Hence IT HAS MORE THAN DOUBLE THE KE OF THE 45. You can measure one pellet all you want, at ten yards no pellets will miss the attacker with a center mass hit. He will take all of the KE and be on his ass in major shock and trauma, though I would say most likely dead as can be. We can agree to disagree, but I doubt you'd willingly dawn a vest and let me shoot you at ten yards with my "birdshot". Though I'm sure you'd learn a lot about Kinetic Energy and how you can be blown back.

If you had ever seen the eight inch bruises (per measly pellet) left by birdshot at sixty yards, I doubt you'd still think they carry very little energy. Like I said, I saw my buddy last night, I'll happily provide you with his number if you want to find out if he just jumped back. I assure you he didn't.

My experience with shotguns and goofing off as a kid tells me that at close range, even birdshot would blow a big, nasty, hole clean though a man. It will absolutely blow through clothes and skull/sternum.

I'm done now. Believe what you want. Hopefully, neither of us will ever have to find out for sure, and hopefully nobody inadvertently kills someone in another room by firing off a cannon within their house.

There's #4 Bucksot, and #4 Birdshot. Which one are we talking?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun

#4 Birdshot 4 3.30 mm (.130")

#4 Buckshot 4 6.1 mm (.24")

Standard load in a 12 gauge is over an ounce. Ounce is 437.5 gr. or about double the weight of a 44 mag. bullet.

Nominal velocity is 1200 fps.

Inside seven yds, which is where about 90% of defense shootings occur, you're getting an ounce of lead, at 1200 fps, and if the pattern expands to 2" it's because your barrel is shaped like a funnel.

Stand back 7 paces with a 12 gauge full of birdshot, any size birdshot. Shoot it at 1/2" plywood. You get a hole you can stick your fist through.

ANY shotgun load at close range is deadly lethal. But lethality drops off fast for birdshot, because the pattern opens up, and the shot is light.

I'm a big fan of #1 BUCK in an Imp. Cyl.

d77- Evidently, KE and the terminal ballistics of lead pellets has you stumped friend. But I can see you are a man that can't be troubled with physics or evidence anyway. Good luck to you.
wsl- Remember that each pellet behaves individually up impact. SO, regardless of the "one big hole" on entry, those pellets stop or deflect before they consistently penetrate enough to stop someone. See the pic above. A nasty surface wound but not a game winner on a determined foe. Diameter of the pattern is largely irrelevant. Pattern has a lot to do with actually landing pellets on various targets at various ranges but zero to do with penetration.

I just don't get the whole birdshot mantra. Gun shop mythology has reached pandemic proportions here in the US. People believe all sorts of non-sensical, non-scientific malarkey about the power of various firearms, most likely due to Hollywood or just plain ol bubba bs. What's more, they aren't afraid to vehemently advocate it to their closest friends and anyone who will listen, even though there is not a shred of evidence to support it. Why? I haven't the foggiest.



Chet

I'm not at all, in the least, for any instant confused by physics, kinetic energy, math in general, or terminal ballistics. I have repeatedly backed up my argument with the above. If you honestly don't think that #4 leadshot (not buckshot) would penetrate through clothing and sternum, into the chest cavity, with a center mass hit, and absolutely destroy the heart and lungs of the attacker at ten feet to ten yards, then you lack much experience. You can feel free to keep spouting off that I'm a gun shop wannabe bubba all you want. You are still just as wrong. I'd say that your belief that only Buckshot is a man stopper, more qualifies you for the gun rag groupie who has never tested his weapon. I'm convinced. You're deceived. I will absolutely test this on the next man sized carcass that I am able and post pics. Since it isn't hunting season, it may be a while, but I HAVE NO DOUBT that the pellets will easily go through initial skin and bone, and still have enough energy to do MAJOR internal damage.

Ladd,

If you were asking me, I was referring to #4 Buck. I generally just go with the steel T's because they are .21, I believe, which isn't a whole lot different than .24. Lighter, yes, but they don't deform as much either and give you a tighter pattern. Add the 3 1/2" shell and there's more projectiles downrange.

quote:

He was sitting (he went about 160 at the time)and it blew him off his stool and back about ten feet. I

D77, 'ol Newton told us 3 hundred years ago that for this to happen, the shooter must have been blown back 10 feet.
Never mind.
Peter

Before the thread was hijacked, we were speculating about using a shotgun as a defense weapon.

There's a lot of "mythology" about shotguns and defense. (I haven't lately heard the one about Ol' Man What's His Name shooting rock salt at the kids stealing apples.)

Racking the slide is a classic. You give away your position, and it's a mistake to be in your "position" with an unloaded gun in the first place.

Big 5 was selling the Mossberg, 8 rd. mag, pump for $269 this weekend.

Seems like you can't find a Wingmaster in a short barrel these days. Express trigger guard is plastic.

Steel shot is for ecosystems, not defense.

What the hell is "leadshot"?

WSL- Hopefully I didn't hijack the thread too badly. If you want thoughts on a home defense shotgun, I think that it is hard to go wrong with an 870. I have an Express model and the trigger guard has never given me a problem.
After a lot of wasted money, here is how it is set up:
1. Factory 20" with Trijicon rifle sights. Ghost rings obscure too much of the target at close range and the large Trij front sight blade works great.
2. Surefire fore end-Don't even waste your time with all the other light products out there. The Surefire fore end is simple and good.
3. Knoxx Spec Ops stock. Normally, I am not a big fan of pistol grip shotguns but the Knoxx absorbs so much recoil that I can use 15p 00 Rem loads and be able to reaquire targets quickly.

I store my shotgun 'cruiser ready' in a locking rack. Cruiser ready is hammer down on an empty chamber, safety off. When you pick up the gun, rack the slide and you are good to go. This works great for folks that have multiple brands of pump guns since there are no other controls to manipulate with this method.

I also recommend the Mossy 500 series for a solid little HD pump. What they lack in fit and finish they usually make up for in reliability. The top tang safety makes it simple for strong side/weak side use. However, it will require you keep the traditional stock if you plan on using the safety while keeping the weapon shouldered.
A third consideration would be a 870 youth 20 guage, especially if you are married. 00 Buck from a 20 is effective and the lighter weight and shorter LOP makes for a speedy gun indoors.

Chet

There ya go --

Although I've never seen a 12 gauge that couldn't be downloaded to 20 gauge recoil specs. We have youth members of the trap club who compete with scaled down shotguns -- in 12 gauge. They're shooting "trap loads" which are reduced from field loads.

I think recoil is something that most anyone can learn to manage, and I think it's more important to learn how to manage recoil than it is to opt for a reduced load.

I've never met anyone involved in a defensive shooting who remarked that they were bothered by the noise and recoil of the firearm they were using.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

He was sitting (he went about 160 at the time)and it blew him off his stool and back about ten feet. I

D77, 'ol Newton told us 3 hundred years ago that for this to happen, the shooter must have been blown back 10 feet.
Never mind.
Peter

Have you never shot a game animal, I'm thinking deer, that was absolutely knocked down. My 7mm mag sure "knocks them down". It doesn't knock me down though, and I'd guess the deer and I weigh about the same, and the bullet exits every time, so the deer isn't even taking all of the bullet's energy. Look at any muzzle energy table and compare that to recoil energy. Problem solved.

Daniel. Like I said, never mind!
Peter.

i had reason to do a bit of snooping at the effect of #4 buck on a shooting at 24' (accross a double garage) the buckshot did not kill the victim, that was done with a 38. the buckshot did not penetrate into vitals. one pellet was lodged in the stock of the gun the victim was holding. it only penetrated to the depth of the shot (i.e. .22")

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

He was sitting (he went about 160 at the time)and it blew him off his stool and back about ten feet. I

D77, 'ol Newton told us 3 hundred years ago that for this to happen, the shooter must have been blown back 10 feet.
Never mind.
Peter

Have you never shot a game animal, I'm thinking deer, that was absolutely knocked down. My 7mm mag sure "knocks them down". It doesn't knock me down though, and I'd guess the deer and I weigh about the same, and the bullet exits every time, so the deer isn't even taking all of the bullet's energy. Look at any muzzle energy table and compare that to recoil energy. Problem solved.

Try filling a large sack or plastic barrel with 160lb of sand and hang it from a tree and then shoot it with your 7mm Magnum (or any other firearm)...Observe how far/ how violently the sack moves... I think you will be surprised.

If you ever take a frontal head shot at deer with a rifle, (and hit it squarely in the brain) it doesn't cart wheel backwards, it "drops right there"..Same with a frontal neck shot if you smash the spine...

Now I'm not suggesting the deer don't react as you say to your rifle, or your buddy didn't get flung off the chair, but its nothing to do with the KE they absorb...rather its down to shot placement and what could be called shot reaction or muscle spasm....

With all due respect, I do not think people in England know anything at all about concealed carry of firearms for personal defense because they have no gun rights.

I'm sure catching a lot of flack here for simply stating my opinion. As far as Newton's law of action/reaction and recoil vs impact energy, it is really pretty simple. Visualize the gun (the entire mass of the gun, not including the person holding it) and the individual bullet, not the case, powder or primer, just the bullet. These are the masses that the "force" will work on. The exact same amount of "force" is exerted on both the bullet, which we'll round off to 1 oz., and the entire mass of the gun, which we'll round off to 8 lbs. or 128 ozs. It stands to reason, math, and physics that the same force exerted on the much smaller mass of the bullet will propel that smaller mass much quicker and with more energy per unit mass, than the larger mass of the gun. That is why a bullet can leave the barrel at 3000 f/s with a muzzle energy of 2000 lbs. and the gun doesn't move back at nearly the same velocity or energy. Because the energy, which is exactly the same, is spread over a mass 128 times larger than the bullet. It is also why a 6 lb. 300WM kicks a lot more viciously than a 10 lb. 300WM.

I am not trying to assert that my guns, ammo, or experiences defy the laws of physics. Neither have I done research or looked at tables to see how many pounds of sand a load of buckshot will move. What I have done is shot God knows how many thousands of rounds of 12 gauge shells in my lifetime. I have shot thousands of rotten logs, doves, deer, coon, squirrels, skeet, etc..... My experience, not a report from the FBI tells me that no man could sustain a blast from a 12 gauge at ten feet with any kind of shot, and not be severely incapacitated, or at least severely stunned. I'd damned sure rather my 12 gauge with #4 birdshot than any 9mm with any ammo for it, for inside the house distances. I am not trying to assert that this 12 gauge load is a man stopper at 50 yds, but at 10, hell yes. I'm also not trying to say that my #4 birdshot would be more effective than buckshot of any size. I could be wrong, but again, my experience tells me I'm not. If you have a different opinion, fine.

Another experience that I have, or rather my brother in law had, is of a 12 gauge shooting through a wall from his garage into his living room and missing him by a few feet (thanks to his careless roommate who came home from duck hunting with a loaded gun). I saw the hole left and damage to the other wall made by the birdshot after passing through the first wall. As I have stated, I am more concerned with shooting through a wall accidentally than not stopping the bad guy. That is a conscious choice made by an informed and intelligent gun owner. I merely stated my preference at the beginning of this thread, and have been defending myself ever since. I'm not trying to tell everyone that my way is best, but I'm no gun shop bubba either.

As far as racking a shell to scare away a bad guy. I did that when I was about fifteen. I had entered our utility room, as my father and I were aware that someone was about. Upon entering the room, I could very clearly and distinctly see the outline of a man through the curtains on the door. My dad was only a few feet behind me, and I could have easily and justifiably killed the man trying to gain entry into my home. I chose to rack a shell, and that fellow left so fast he could have walked on water. I don't regret that decision and don't think it put me or my family in any danger. In another situation, I may not do the same. Obviously the same rules don't apply to every situation.

If you don't want to hear different points of view, then why are you reading a forum?

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:
I have witnessed a hunting accident where a friend was hit by about 20 pellets of #8 dove load at 60 yds. He was sitting (he went about 160 at the time)and it blew him off his stool and back about ten feet.

Louisiana physics at work. These laws of physics do not apply outside of the state's borders.

Run Forrest, Run, I'll wait till you get 60 yds. and you can have your own epiphany.

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:
I'm sure catching a lot of flack here for simply stating my opinion.

No flack Daniel, I just dissagree with the notion that its KE doing the work..

And I am not passing comment on the over/under peneration argument as I've never used a shotgun on a person or a deer, so I have no practical expirience. Before reading this thread, I was pretty much of the same mind as you, but Chet's comments have made me think and re-evaluate ideas I'd taken for granted.

Besides, if you want to see a heated debate abut shotguns, go on the African Forum and ask if a 12bore is sufficient to stop a charge from a wounded leopard!

So again, definately no flack from me and I think the thread has been very thought provoking..

Regards,

Peter

D77-You are right, it is a forum and a good one. But the quality of a forum generally depends on the quality of the opinions expressed. You have tenaciously defended an opinion in spite of a lot of physical fact which counters your opinion. You have begun to even counter your own points.
Your stated reason for using #4 birdshot was to prevent wall penetration but yet you posted above that you witnessed a shot from a 12 guage penetrate at least 2 sheets of drywall and enter a third, maybe more?. I assume he was using steel bird shot since he was loaded for duck, right? Why assume that #4 shot is somehow "safer". It's not. In fact, since you admit you may have to fire more times to get the job done, you will be putting a lot more lead down range than buckshot would.

Second, when you counter scientific observation and anecdotal evidence of penetration against your experiences of "shooting rotten logs" wouldn't you expect someone might take issue with that? Besides, nowhere do you state that you have used #4 shot against 150 lbs game at any range and your experience with small game is somewhat unrelated to the discussion.

Finally, let me emphasize this point: We are discussing "stopping" an opponent with an SG. Killing them is a different matter. Here is a medical journal report of a man who used a 12 gauge with #2 bird shot to commit suicide. What is pertinent is that he SHOT HIMSELF THREE TIMES WITH THE WEAPON- twice in the chest and once in the neck! He covered 136 meters on foot after shooting himself TWICE point blank to finish the job on a hillside.
eMJA article


Also, I have previously refrained from posting my personal experiences only because the science can stand on it's own but since you called it into question:

I served 4 years in US Marine Infantry, another with MP's, 2 MEU(SOC) deployments, 1 with combat in Mogadishu. Currently, I have 5 years as a FF/EMT with two departments, 2 of those as a Captain. I have carried concealed near daily for 10 years in a dozen or so states, training and shooting fairly regularly.

I have seen quite a few people shot with a variety of weapons in both of those jobs and almost none were DRT from small arms alone. Most of the time folks bleed out if care is not available but are capable of continuing the fight in the short term. In my experience, it takes a lot to stop a determined human.

In Somalia, we used 12 gauge both with buckshot, rubber shot, knee knockers and bean bags. I can tell you that NONE of us wanted to carry the gauge simply because it did not have the range for MOUT and follow up shots were slow. My section leader who got stuck with it was not a happy camper (although he did have a horrendous urinary tract infection as well ). The only DRT shots I have ever seen were 7.62x51 so in my book 5.56 and 7.62x39 are on the smaller end of the scale for social work that requires 'stopping' in addition to killing.

The one DRT fatality I have seen with a shotgun was a suicide/head shot point blank and to be honest, I never worried about what shell he used. Had he chosen a different aiming point, it may have mattered as I refenced above.

If you doubt my experience, oh well. I rarely post it in defense of a point. Although, I do admit that I have a burr under my saddle when it comes to self defense mythology and brother, birdshot is at the top of the list for mythology.
The "opinion" you are espousing will get you, and anyone who attempts to rely on it for actual self defense, killed.

Forums exist as arenas of ideas, sometimes that arena can be a bit aggressive. We post ideas on various subjects to see how they withstand rigorous examination and refutation.

Unfortunately, your idea has been run over by a gladiator chariot. Bring more to the match next time.

ChetNC

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
Besides, if you want to see a heated debate abut shotguns, go on the African Forum and ask if a 12bore is sufficient to stop a charge from a wounded leopard!
Regards,
Peter

Boy , ain't it the truth!
Though I still like the for that.

I do prefer shotguns for in close (15 yds max) at night and inside the house, my choice of projectile is lead BB's at a minimum, and in general N0.4 Buck as the first round up.

Have used 0,00, & 000 buck growing up in Tex/La when some counties prohibited rifles and killed several deer, pigs, etc . out to 60 yds.

When I began to hunt/fish Alaska in the 80's we carried 000,slug,slug,slug,slug.

As to DRT with assurance, you cannot count on anything, as with an officer here in Texas beaten to death (died later) with his .357 revolver (emptied rather effectively).
Yes the perp died much sooner.
Granted that is an extreme case.

I am in agreement as to the .308 being my first choice over either the .223 or AK round or a handgun.

The scattergun in close is a devastating tool.

Chet,

My only comment is that my use of a shotgun for home defense is likely to be 20' tops, not like what you encountered. Also, I tend to pull the trigger until the target no longer presents, so multiple hits are likely. I would not want to get shot with even one round of a 3 1/2" shotgun round of any shot size at 20', let alone multiple rounds.

Daniel,

I happen to agree with you on this one, but what would you expect from a Cajun. A shotgun is king.

quote:

Originally posted by ChetNC:
You have begun to even counter your own points.
Your stated reason for using #4 birdshot was to prevent wall penetration but yet you posted above that you witnessed a shot from a 12 guage penetrate at least 2 sheets of drywall and enter a third, maybe more?. I assume he was using steel bird shot since he was loaded for duck, right?
ChetNC

I can see how that sounds like a contradiction. To clarify, the shot to the wall was point blank, or from three feet away, and some type of Duck load (I don't know for certain, exactly what). A two inch hole was blown through the outer wall (entry of outer wall), a six inch hole on the inner surface of the outer wall(exit of outer wall). Multiple "scratches and such" on the next wall across the room in no discernable 'pattern' (essentially no damage was done to third wall). A shotgun will penetrate a wall, if fired point blank and if the blast hits nothing else. I don't think a shotgun would penetrate a wall, if the blast first hits the bad guy. A .44 might. On a side note, we've all seen the videos of the cop who unloads his service pistol point blank into a attacker who continues to kick his ass, during and after taking multiple hits center mass. Shit happens, and NOTHING is 100%. I've never denied that buckshot would be more effective, I simply believe that my petty little birdshot would be effective enough. When you hire me to sit outside your house and guard your family, I'll carry a flame thrower if you want.

Load up with what you want, I'll do the same.

When I taught the old nra home fire arms course we did a few experiments we tried various pistol loads fmj sp lead and the old glazser safety bullet these were in 38 cal as that was more or less what the course was geared to, we also demonstrated the 12 ga shotgun. we made up wall samples -ext wall -sheating/studs/sheet rock- interior wall- sheetrock/studs/sheetrock and concrete blocks we also shot an old entry door-most of the pistol loads went thru the ext. wall- all went thru the int. wall except the glazser -it would some times open on contact and some times not- the shot gun would go thru one side of the sheet rock but not all the way thru w #8 light loads-the oo buck/ slugs went thru every thing even broke cement blocks these were shot at 12/15 ft. to approximate a small room I am still a beliver in the shot gun for close dark encounters there is a ex tx highway patrol ithica M37 w/oo buck beside the bed it does not have a disconnector just hold the trigger back and pump.

quote:

Originally posted by Stubby:
With all due respect, I do not think people in England know anything at all about concealed carry of firearms for personal defense because they have no gun rights.

So, how do you conceal your everyday carry shotgun?

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:

quote:

Originally posted by Stubby:
With all due respect, I do not think people in England know anything at all about concealed carry of firearms for personal defense because they have no gun rights.

So, how do you conceal your everyday carry shotgun?

Sambar, this is my concealed carry rig......

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:

quote:

Originally posted by Stubby:
With all due respect, I do not think people in England know anything at all about concealed carry of firearms for personal defense because they have no gun rights.

So, how do you conceal your everyday carry shotgun?

Sambar, this is my concealed carry rig......

Not bad. Here though, that rig would get you a year. Have to admit though, if my eyesight keeps getting worse, I'd be needing something similar.

$200 tax stamp and that rig is legal. It's interesting that the CCW is cited as "Concealed Handgun Permit" -- technically it doesn't authorize concealed carry of a "long-gun," or a large / automatic (switchblade) knife either for that matter. Switchblade and larger than 3" are legal knives, but not concealed. Clip on the pocket is "not concealed."