The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Personal Defence And Concealed Carry "Highly Trained" gun usersGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| "Highly Trained" gun users | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
http://www.dogmurderers.com/20...s-execute-dog-video/ 33 rounds to kill a dog? Really? And why did they have to shoot the SUV?? | ||
|
| one of us |
Yup, I don't consider most (not all) LEOs as being "highly trained". They qualify once a year, put the gun back in the holster and never get it back out for another year. OTOH, there are some that are very highly trained, but these idiots were not of that ilk. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
|
| one of us |
Piss poor shooting for sure. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Bad shooting and piss poor judgement on the officers part. | |||
|
| one of us |
Probably FMJ ammo that ricochets, switch to JHP ammo. | |||
|
| One of Us |
FMJ's in a residential area? That really speaks to their level of weapons knowledge. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Isn't it common knowledge that cops miss 80% of their shots? Most do not have enough surplus income to buy ammo and most departments won't buy a lot of practice ammo. Most cops can't hit a bull in the ass. They just spray and pray. I've been told the old revolver guys could shoot, though. They're all retired now, I would imagine. | |||
|
one of us |
Not all of us  My first issued sidearm was a Model 15 S&W. Then I worked many months of off duty cash jobs to buy a Colt Python in 1979. Carried that until 1986 when the agency I work for switched to semi autos. I carried a 45 for as long as I could, then they made me switch to issued .40 S&W (Short and weak) tupper ware. I REALLY miss a steel revolver as a duty gun and would not feel at all undergunned with 6 shots of .357 magnum for duty carry again. Oh well, retirement is mere months away and it'll be my Browning Hi Power, Combat Commander or new to me again Python that I'll carry for a reitrement gun! What is old is new again!  BTW - It drives the "yongsters" crazy when I show up with my BUG, a 342Ti J frame and proceed to kick their a** on the dueling tree while they are shooting their BUG autos (Usually Glock 26 and 27s). Smooth aimed fire will usually defeat spray and pray. Or at least it does when a few of us oldsters are on the range. Now if I could only see the sights as well as I used to with these 50 something eyes.  ______________________ Guns are like parachutes. If you need one and don't have one, you'll likely never need one again Author Unknown, But obviously brilliant. If you are in trouble anywhere in the world, an airplane can fly over and drop flowers, but a helicopter can land and save your life. - Igor Sikorski, 1947 | |||
|
| one of us |
Chopper Guy Get a Crimson Trace Laser for your Retirement guns...   DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
|
| one of us |
Actually your figures are pretty close for "Most" cops. However, there is a certain percentage of Police, that shoot real good. Depending on the Dept/area, there are those that Hunt, shoot in some sort of competition, are on the SWAT Team, or in Narcotics, and run their own drug warrants, and thus get extra training, or those that just like to shoot. Sadly, those Police/Federal Agents, are in the Minority. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
|
One of Us |
My son works at an indoor shooting range in one of America's largest cities, and he's shared some interesting observations about shooters of all types. He sees everthing from gang bangers and recreational shooters to local as well as federal law enforcement officers shooting there every week. He told me that many LEO's don't shoot worth a damn, though some are excellent shots. Interestingly, he recently told me, only half joking, that he figured out the safest place to be if ever confronted by a gang banger. He said to stand still about 20 yards in front of them. I didn't believe him so he went on to tell me that most of the gang bangers who shoot at the range can't hit a 20"x30" target from even 10 yards. And he didn't mean the target, but rather the entire 20x30" board the target is placed upon. He said all those idiots just hold the gun with one hand, many holding it sideways like you might see int he movies, and spray and pray. He figured as long as he was standing still, they'd as likely shoot all around him as hit him anywhere real bad. Again, he was only half joking, but the point is most of them can't hit anything on purpose. As for LEO's he said most are not very good with their guns, other than the ones who practice regularly, but he did say that some guys, mostly the SWAT and NARC guys, do shoot well. Finally, he indicated that most of the best shots are recreational shooters, civilion or LEO, who compete in matches. I was recently talking to a friend (who doesn't know I hunt or shoot) that is a training officer for our state's highway patrol, about my son joining their force since he's going to go into law enforcement. One of the things my buddy told me was that my son would have to get comfortable shooting a firearm, and that many young cadets are uncomforable handling guns. I told him that my son works at a range, is a firearms safety trainer there, and shoots over 3,000 rounds a year. His reply was "Your kid will shoot better than 95% of the officers on our force". | |||
|
| one of us |
Just put a set of them on my J frame and looking at a set for my commander. Getting old really SU###! But those things really do work well in lower light situations. ______________________ Guns are like parachutes. If you need one and don't have one, you'll likely never need one again Author Unknown, But obviously brilliant. If you are in trouble anywhere in the world, an airplane can fly over and drop flowers, but a helicopter can land and save your life. - Igor Sikorski, 1947 | |||
|
| one of us |
They work great on running/moving "targets" as well. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
|
| One of Us |
There was a video a while back on YouTube of a police recorded "routine traffic stop." Police approached the van on the right side. Driver came around and opened fire. Two police opened fire. Then the passenger opened fire, and they all fled toward nearby apartments -- shooting all the way. So, four shooters, four Glocks -- at least 60 rds fired, maybe more. NO ONE got hit with a single bullet -- at pretty much point blank for starters, and stick the gun in your face until the run to the apartments. NO ONE got hit with a single round. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Watched a Deputy Sheriff "demonstrate a quick draw" -- Pulled out his service Glock and tossed it full length of the handgun range. But it's true what they say about the Glock connector interlock: You can toss it full length of the range and not have an A.D.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well I shoot Glocks, Sigs, Colts and Kimbers too! Killing a dog is not a test in physics! A double tap to the head or vital zone will put any dog down for keeps. Now there are exceptions to every rule and the one I can think of is if that dog is in a heated dog fight with another dog. You then will have to hit the skull where the brain is. | |||
|
| One of Us |
One of the guys in my last church was an FBI special ops team member, did 2 tours in Iraq while I knew him. He told me he went through 4-500 rounds a week of .45 at the Quantico range. | |||
|
| one of us |
ChopperGuy I just retried after 33 plus in Jan. THERE IS LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL I carry a glock 23 most of the time. with a Ti 41 for woods use. Plus misc. others now and again. | |||
|
| one of us |
Freestate101 There are LEOs that are gun guys and shoot a lot and are very good. Two to three percent There are LEOs that are kind of are good. 5 percent. Then there are most LEO's that don't give a rip about guns and only carry them because its part of the job. Around 90 percent. | |||
|
One of Us |
Don't have enough income? The AVERAGE cop on the Phoenix, AZ PD makes well over $65,000 per year!! (And rookies fresh out of the academy make $60,000.) I manage to buy lots of practice ammo on my social security income, so I think it is more a question of priorities than income. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
|
| one of us |
Don't have enough income? The AVERAGE cop on the Phoenix, AZ PD makes well over $65,000 per year!! (And rookies fresh out of the academy make $60,000.) I manage to buy lots of practice ammo on my social security income, so I think it is more a question of priorities than income.[/QUOTE Its a matter where ones wants to put their money I brought lots ammo/reloading supplys when I was making $5.25 a hr as a new deputy. But not as much as I wanted.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
p dog shooter is correct. I watch lots of our personnel (same ones) barely qualify year after year. Kinda funny to watch some of 'em throw up because they are so nervous. Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
|
| One of Us |
My goodness gents! I used to shoot at least 300 a week in my pistols, ammo was free to me back then, the store owner liked me a lot. Now days since I retired from the hussel and bussel of things in the big city, I have more time to shoot. My wife and I both shoot close to 400 rounds a week, unless the weather is raining etc. We reload or own ammo! | |||
|
One of Us |
You'd be suprised how low training standards can be. I can only speak for how the Navy conducts business. 48 rounds of 9 mm for an annual qualification. I would guess rifle is the same, shotgun used to be 5 rounds. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Your local cops are not much better in that respect, most are too damn lazy to go practice period. Now most are furnished the FREE AMMO but still don't practice. I get to watch them all the time at our gun-club, the frigging "postal workers" are better shooters as a whole. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Not to defend these guys for the lousy shooting but when in a high stress situation you lose your fine motor skills. You can be the greatest marksman in the world but when your in a situation like a gun fight or other life threatening situation you tend to get tunnel vision, hearing goes, your ability to process information slows down, and your aim goes to pot. The Dog was running towards the officer, so you have a moving target maybe what 18"-24" wide tops. I would say it would be a pretty hard target to hit with just one or two shots. There was a shooting in Las Vegas a few years back when a man walked into the Federal Court and started shooting a shotgun. 80+ rounds were fired from various distances before the man was taken out. NY PD did a study and found that on average for every 10 rounds fired in a gun fight 1 round hit it's target. Like I said i'm not trying to defend these guys just wanted to add to the conversation. In my opinion they would have been better suited to use pepper spray or mace whichever they carry. I have used it twice on pit bulls that were coming after me on my bike while riding on county roads. It stopped them both times. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The one cop hollered ‘don’t shoot him’, but he shot him. When he shot him, the dog fell to the ground, was shaking and crying, but he just stood over top of him and kept shooting repeatedly.” Dog fell to the ground on the first shot, and they still proceeded to shoot up the neighborhood, hiting houses and cars.... And the dog didn't even have a gun. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I supposed it is a good thing the dog did not have a gun! It looks to me as though there is an awful lack of training on the part of the police department to let something like this happen in the field. Now with all the newer technology and such, I guess we are still better off on the street with such policemen who no doubt have taken all these new training procedures to the highest level. Perhaps the instructors need another class in how to get the proper results in such cases. Then again maybe just a new manual needs to be written so all can understand what to do in such an incident on the street. A.S. now you think that policeman thought the dog was part cat and had 9-lives? Holy Smoke! | |||
|
| One of Us |
I got pulled off of my bike by a dog when I was 7 years old, and pretty badly bitten. In those days there was no such thing as Mace or Capisicum spray, and we couldn't have afforded it if there was. So, I got an empty pump-type spray bottle that originally had Windex in it and filled it with household "strong" ammonia. The next time I rode by when that dog was loose (I had to go past there to get to and from school) it came after me again. I sprayed its face real well with that bottle, and the dog shreiked and ran for its life! I heard later it was partially blind for a week or so. I felt sorry for the dog, but its owners wouldn't control it, and I really didn't feel like getting more stitches. BTW, I've been very leery of strange dogs ever since..."Once bitten, twice shy", for real. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Canuck that was a brilliant thing to do! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Canuck my father used to use ammonia to take care of wild dogs when he was younger. His results were like what you described. | |||
|
One of Us |
Wonder if the shooter of the dog got a drug test afterward? Steve "He wins the most, who honour saves. Success is not the test." Ryan "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Stalin Tanzania 06 Argentina08 Argentina Australia06 Argentina 07 Namibia Arnhemland10 Belize2011 Moz04 Moz 09 | |||
|
| One of Us |
Twenty years ago our local PD had two Dillon progressives in the basement. I want to say 650's but I am not sure. One set up for small primers, one for large. I asked a friend if they are still in use, he said the insurance carrier made them get rid of them. For 90% it is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. Rich | |||
|
One of Us |
well, if I had to choose between a partner who shot Master Class and a partner who: 1) was in good shape 2) had good tactics/and good gun handling skills 3) was proficient in weaponless defense 4) was good with impact weapons 5) was an "ok" shot I would take the above 5 every time over a great shot. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
|
| One of Us |
X2 Mike! You use the first four more than the 5th Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
|
| one of us |
Very true Mike I would take a partner with good common sense over all of them. He would keep you out of more trouble then in and one wouldn't need the other skills. Most of the time and hopefully he had those skills when needed. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I don't understand why a Master Class partner could not also have the above. Seems to me, if they are Master class 1,2 and 5 would already be a given 3 and 4 can be learned. Cold Zero | |||
|
| One of Us |
Cold Zero, They could but by no means will they necessarily be. All of those items are different skills and require different knowledge and knowledge and skills perish without continuous practice and training. Physical fitness is not quite a skill but it perishes easily over time. Lots of guys are Master Class shots but don't have the stamina to fight for even 3 minutes straight or sprint 75 yards and not be so out of breath that all fine motor skills go in the tank. Good tactics are completely different than being a good shot. It is not just gun tactics, its all tactics. Where to stand, how to stand, when to escalate force, what force to use...not just lethal force, when not to use force, when to retreat. A Master shot doesn't necessarily have to have good gun handling skills. I knew lots of great shots who could not re-holster and snap the their holster securing their weapon with one hand and without looking at the holster. That is an important skill when performing a high risk felony prone arrest. Items 4 and 5 are completely different skills than shooting and yes they can be learned but not all will be proficient at them. The same as everyone is not going to be an Expert or Master class with pistol. There are only so many hours in a week/month and all of the items take training and practice or the skills/knowledge perish over time. So, if I had to cut back personal training time or recommend to anyone about cutting back on training time for one of those items it would be actual marksmanship training. The qualification course we used was a max 300 points. Most people with any aptitude and reasonable practice can learn to shoot 280+. If an officer was shooting 280 and was out of shape, I would recommend he/she go to the gym instead of trying to get their score to 290. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
|
| one of us |
Mike your right keeping in good shape takes a lot more time then to become a good shooter. I run 3 times a week at 45 min a time bike up to 3 hrs a week do sit up/push ups lift some weigh work on the heavey bag for 3 min all for 15min a day. Been doing it for years I have shot lots of perfect 300 scores on are Q course it isn't hard. I use to shot a couple hours a week. Now I shoot maybe 1hr per week some more. I would not have and trouble shooting a near to perfect score. Even being in very good shape getting into a down and out nasty fight takes a lot from you. Most guys I worked with did and do not work out at all did and do not shoot on there own. They are very lucky that no real hard ass bad guys tried them. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well, the one thing Mike didn't say, but I think we all feel he implied, is he wants a partner with: Good common sense. In this instance, someone who could of figured out a way to get the caged in a yard someplace, while they called animal control, so they never would of fired a shot to begin with. I also agree with Mike on points three and four. An officer with decent hand to hand skills could take a broker piece of trim from a seven year old without the use of a taser. P-dog brings up a good point. What if that was a real hardass that could shoot back, and not just a dog?? Bulldog. As for these yahoo actually thinking it was a cat with 9 lives, that would imply they actually had a thought before they pulled the trigger.... | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia